GWR's recent declining performance?

[Dren Ahmeti]

(Assuming this was a Turbo) - Why are the Turbos so unreliable? Someone has said previously they were the pride of the fleet when they were based at Reading!

Someone’s obviously been taking a hammer and chisel to them at SPM, they were, and still are, absolute workhorses while at Reading!

 

[FGW_DID]

Don’t forget that the Turbos are relatively new to the staff at SPM whereas there are staff members at Reading who have worked with them for donkeys years and have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all things Turbo!

 

[D2007wsm]

I'm not sure myself but are loaded passenger trains authorised to use the loop ? Perhaps this was a factor

Frequently a stopper will be put in the loop to let a high speed service overtake. The guard and the ticket lady said they were surprised we were not put in it.

 

[43096]

Well a diesel mode 800 can do the Reading - London journey quicker than a HST because of its superior acceleration

All the evidence I have seen says that is a load of utter twaddle.

 

[cactustwirly]

All the evidence I have seen says that is a load of utter twaddle.

Well I had one do it in 23 minutes which is very similar to the HST time

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Well I had one do it in 23 minutes which is very similar to the HST time

Maybe on electric, they struggle to get past 120mph on diesel...

 

[cactustwirly]

Maybe on electric, they struggle to get past 120mph on diesel...

It was in diesel mode!
It certainly accelerated much better than a HST

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I am led to understand that the full uprating to 940hp / powered car is still being rolled out across the Class 800 5-car fleet. The 9-cars are being delivered with the appropriate engine management software patching but many of the 5-car sets still have the temporary ‘fudge’ which only gives 940hp up to about 35mph at which point it drops back to 750hp stifling acceleration.

Anyone who has ridden the new Class 802s on the West Country services will understand the massive difference this makes. I can therefore very much believe a 23 min Padd-Reading journey time on diesel mode is entirely possible. The full uprating makes it like a different train, more akin to Voyager-type performance.

 

[Nippy]

The other thing to note is that, we as signallers, aren't aware which ones are running in diesel mode.

 

[irish_rail]

Well a diesel mode 800 can do the Reading - London journey quicker than a HST because of its superior acceleration

Well diesel 800s won't do 125mph so no, it is not and proved not to be quicker than my distinctly average hst set (suspect no notch 5 on rear powercar)

 

[JN114]

Well diesel 800s won't do 125mph so no, it is not and proved not to be quicker than my distinctly average hst set (suspect no notch 5 on rear powercar)

Out of interest, which service was this on? There’s not any record of any 15 minute delays due to a low power 800 anywhere in TRUST that I can see, curious to see what the delay has been attributed to. Happy if you’d prefer to PM for anonymity.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well diesel 800s won't do 125mph so no, it is not and proved not to be quicker than my distinctly average hst set (suspect no notch 5 on rear powercar)

But HSTs take a lot longer to get up to about 70, so the 800 will be a few miles ahead by the time the HST reaches 125mph.

 

[43096]

But HSTs take a lot longer to get up to about 70, so the 800 will be a few miles ahead by the time the HST reaches 125mph.

Define “a lot longer”.

 

[irish_rail]

But HSTs take a lot longer to get up to about 70, so the 800 will be a few miles ahead by the time the HST reaches 125mph.

I caught him by slough (and no he wasn't stopping there) and I was only in notch 2 until Twyford west in an attempt to let him get out of my way so makes its performance all the worse in my opinion. It is my passengers travelling all the way from Cornwall and Devon I feel for , buying the most expensive tickets and yet it is our services always given the worse paths possible between reading and Paddington. Another example, early this week, pull into Reading a couple of minutes down, and a slough stopper on the adjacent platform given priority thus guaranteeing me a late arrival time into London when if I'd of gone first we would both of still been on time. This is partly poor regulation and partly the fault of platform staff for not always intelligently dispatching services...

 

[Mintona]

That one is frustrating. Get into Reading 2 minutes early, so sat for around 4 minutes. A late running turbo stopping at Slough arrives 1 minute before you’re due to go on the adjacent platform and gets priority so you leave Reading late and trundle all the way in, invariably being held at Airport Jn coz you miss your path, and you’re about 10 late by the time you get into London.

 

[irish_rail]

And this is a common everyday occurrence that is slowing down intercity trains from Wales and the West into London. I doubt it would be tolerated on the WCML or ECML .
Anything calling at slough should use the relief lines end of story.

 

[NHG66]

Sorry to disappoint you, but as someone who drives both on a daily basis, the 800 is much quicker up to 20 in Diesel mode but then the engines rate back and then it has acceleration akin to a turbo. For the first mile the 800 would stay ahead but then the HST would wind it in very quickly. To give you an example, leave Honeybourne towards London climbing Campden bank and you will just about see 65 in an 800 as you enter Campden tunnel, in a HST you have notched back best part of a mile before the tunnel entrance in order to avoid going over the 75 linespeed. Conversely, leave Paddington on the Down main and as soon as the 50 eases at Ladbroke Grove you will find that a healthy HST will be doing around 90 passing Ealing Broadway whereas an 800 in diesel will be doing low 80's. In electric mode however, the 800 is just about hitting 100 as the linespeed lifts to 125 at Acton.
Bear in mind that you as a passenger do not know the status of the train in which you are travelling, are you aware that 800's when working in pairs can run in either diesel, electric or a combination where one set is electric and the other diesel. This last mode is the only one that would make sense regarding your perception of fast in diesel mode if you happened to be sat in one of the sets running in diesel and the other ably assisting in electric mode. As my depot diagrams do not currently have any 10 car diagrams I cannot offer an example of performance when operating in dual mode.

 

[NHG66]

Sorry mate but how do you propose that ? Does Slough not deserve a fast service to and from Padd /Rdg ? Most of our diagrams are booked to stop there, holding to cross onto the reliefs and back is a non starter and would cause more delays. If things are running to time then the Slough stoppers are booked sufficient headway from following services so as not to hold things up but you know as well as I that with the maximum utilisation of paths, any slight delay has knock on effects both to passengers and to our turn round times and breaks.

 

[NHG66]

Not currently true mate, every 800/3 that I have driven de-rates at 15-20 just like the 5 cars and are probably ever so slightly slower. I had my first trip in an 802 this week and it also derated but at a higher speed around 30 mph. I was under the impression that the 802's would be full power from the start but perhaps there is an initial period of derating the engines until the bed in (just my guess). Another reason I heard for the de-rating was to improve fuel consumption so that the range on diesel was increased thus providing more flexibility when diagramming, however this also was possibly just an assumption on the part of the person who mentioned it as I haven't seen anything in writing.

 

[irish_rail]

Sorry mate but how do you propose that ? Does Slough not deserve a fast service to and from Padd /Rdg ? Most of our diagrams are booked to stop there, holding to cross onto the reliefs and back is a non starter and would cause more delays. If things are running to time then the Slough stoppers are booked sufficient headway from following services so as not to hold things up but you know as well as I that with the maximum utilisation of paths, any slight delay has knock on effects both to passengers and to our turn round times and breaks.

Quite simple, cease the practice of HSS services calling there at all. With 8 or 12 car electric emus zooming into Paddington from slough I'm sure the people going there would not be too inconvenienced travelling on these stopping services which have far more speed and capacity than when they were operated by turbos. And then u could speed up slightly the intercity services on the mains.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Not currently true mate, every 800/3 that I have driven de-rates at 15-20 just like the 5 cars and are probably ever so slightly slower. I had my first trip in an 802 this week and it also derated but at a higher speed around 30 mph. I was under the impression that the 802's would be full power from the start but perhaps there is an initial period of derating the engines until the bed in (just my guess). Another reason I heard for the de-rating was to improve fuel consumption so that the range on diesel was increased thus providing more flexibility when diagramming, however this also was possibly just an assumption on the part of the person who mentioned it as I haven't seen anything in writing.

No, it's to reduce engine wear and how Hitachi exactly set up the traction curve electronically is regarded by them as something of a state secret. They are trying to minimize % torque variation by matching the engine performance to the required journey times.

 

[Kite159]

Quite simple, cease the practice of HSS services calling there at all. With 8 or 12 car electric emus zooming into Paddington from slough I'm sure the people going there would not be too inconvenienced travelling on these stopping services which have far more speed and capacity than when they were operated by turbos. And then u could speed up slightly the intercity services on the mains.

From Paddington, isn't the timetable set up so a service which calls at Slough towards Reading is followed by a Heathrow Express, in the theory that the next High Speed service won't catch up with the Slough stopper?

 

[NHG66]

Again I will say, do Slough residents not deserve a fast service to London and Reading ?
You say 8-12 car 387's zooming into Paddington, well without looking at the timetables I will wager a months salary that there are no relief line services which are booked to get to Padd in 14 minutes unlike the mains. There are 9 stations between Slough and Padd on the reliefs, numerous freight paths, lower line speeds and not forgetting the imminent arrival of Crossrail. Also, we are not talking about a handful of passengers, all of the services I run are very popular at all times of the day, add to that the many hundreds of tourists going to and from Windsor. If you want to have a non stop city to city drive then the only place that is likely to happen will be on HS2 if it ever gets built, or perhaps you could petition Mr Hopwood to arrange for Plymouth men to get off at Reading as they dont like driving outside the quiet countryside of the South West up to horrible busy Londiniumshire

 

[irish_rail]

Actually plymuff men have no issue driving to the smoke , just frustrated as we give a toss about our long suffering passengers. Why should they have extended journey times just so slough can have fast services to London? I think ud be surprised at how quick some of these stopper services from slough into London now are most of them omit several stations and the traction is high performance. My observations are also that off peak the trains have plenty of spare capacity.
Why should an intercity railway be slowed down by a London commuter service? On other mainlines commuter and fast services are segregated but slough for some reason is treated as a special case.
I wonder if your reasoning for retaining slough stops is because stopping there gives u an excellent path into Paddington without routinely having to wait for Heathrow trains and what not , whereas we are pathed to always wait at airport junction.

 

[irish_rail]

From Paddington, isn't the timetable set up so a service which calls at Slough towards Reading is followed by a Heathrow Express, in the theory that the next High Speed service won't catch up with the Slough stopper?

Sadly the reality is usually the Bristol service following behind will almost always catch up the slough stopper and this in turn is quite often caught up by the Plymouth departure. Admittedly on electric IET s may improve this situation a little compared to turbo days

 

[JN114]

As a passenger flow, Slough to London Paddington is nearly as big - if not bigger - than Exeter and all stations further west to London Paddington combined.

If everyone just got on the Relief line services from Slough - even with the imminent introduction of Crossrail - there would be no room on any services for passengers to join at the 9 stations further East, some of which are nearly as busy again as Slough is. As our esteemed Worcester colleague eludes to the 5 car IET services that call at Slough on the Mains are often full and standing therefrom; even well into the off peak period.

In terms of bums on seats, the Great Western is a commuter railway from West London, Berkshire and Oxfordshire to London. It's about the greater good. By stopping "fast" services on the Mains at Slough you leave capacity available on the Relief Line services for the stations that don't have a fast service to London. Why should the majority of Great Western's passengers suffer so a small minority who've travelled a little bit further can get 90 seconds shaved off their journey time?

Thankfully, a clean-sheet retimetabling exercise would potentially open up the prospect of solving some of the problems. There just isn't the margin in the current timetable for services to weave between the Mains and Reliefs - an unfortunate byproduct of a 4 track railway with lines paired by use, not direction.

 

[JN114]

...Perhaps you could petition Mr Hopwood to arrange for Plymouth men to get off at Reading as they dont like driving outside the quiet countryside of the South West up to horrible busy Londiniumshire

I had a Plymouth Train Manager phone up just the other week to ask if resources were going to take them off at Reading; they were only 11L at Tiverton with 70-odd minutes for their breaks in London...

 

[irish_rail]

I had a Plymouth Train Manager phone up just the other week to ask if resources were going to take them off at Reading; they were only 11L at Tiverton with 70-odd minutes for their breaks in London...

Unlikely, the ply TMs routinely have breaks of less than half an hour in London so I'm guessing thereally must of been other factors involved in that one....

 

[TractiveEffort]

are you aware that 800's when working in pairs can run in either diesel, electric or a combination where one set is electric and the other diesel. This last mode is the only one that would make sense regarding your perception of fast in diesel mode if you happened to be sat in one of the sets running in diesel and the other ably assisting in electric mode. As my depot diagrams do not currently have any 10 car diagrams I cannot offer an example of performance when operating in dual mode.

The possibility of one running in diesel and one in electric mode is there, but they currently don’t. So the coupled sets are either both in diesel mode or electric mode. Maybe that will change, but not imminently.

 

[Mintona]

From Paddington, isn't the timetable set up so a service which calls at Slough towards Reading is followed by a Heathrow Express, in the theory that the next High Speed service won't catch up with the Slough stopper?

In practice, the xx:50 turbo departure to Oxford (calling at Slough) is almost always caught by the xy:00 departure to Bristol. When the Bristol was normally an HST you would often catch it around Maidenhead, now it’s normally an IET you usually catch it whilst it is still stopped at Slough. Hopefully at some point soon all the xx:50 departures will be IETs also, and so will be able to clear the line more quickly with their superior acceleration and top speed.