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Harcroft to Colliers Stone [v2] Released!

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The Snap

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10 Jun 2005
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Hi guys,

Just to let you know that I have released Harcroft v2! It features brand new custom objects, photo-real textures, loads of new diagrams, and all the usual BVE4 features. The route is also the first toinclude diagrams for the Class 31 and 37(901). :)

http://www.bveroutes-trains.co.uk/routes/harcroft.html

I hope you enjoy the upgrade!

Cheers,
 
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mbonwick

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26 Oct 2006
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Kendal
Looks great! One minor gripe, on the site
A fully 2 mile extension has been added, to Colliers Stone, a small mining town in the North Yorkshire.

Shouldn't it read
A full 2 mile extension has been added, to Colliers Stone, a small mining town in the North of Yorkshire.
 

Jordy

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9 Jun 2005
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WCML South
Great route, but I found a couple of problems on the 37 route

When passing over the viaduct towards the end, there is an AWS magnet, which gives a bell, but no signal! Then, as you pass through the tunnel, you go into the loop - but I went in at 45mph as there was no warning of it! Approach control signals would be more realistic! Also, sometimes the points noise doesnt play when you cross a junction, other than that, good stuff!

Jordy
 
T

Tom

Guest
I'd recommend advance warning panels... especially where there is a 1/3rd reduction in speed (where they are required IRL IIRC). Especially the 60-45mph bit, no warning.
 

Coxster

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I'd recommend advance warning panels... especially where there is a 1/3rd reduction in speed (where they are required IRL IIRC). Especially the 60-45mph bit, no warning.
Although in that case I guess you could say the same about the 75-50mph reduction between Brookfield and Hobbs Cross on the NWM route.
 

Dennis

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I'd recommend advance warning panels... especially where there is a 1/3rd reduction in speed (where they are required IRL IIRC). Especially the 60-45mph bit, no warning.

They are required when the approaching linespeed is >60MPH and the required reduction is one third or more (from RGS GK/RT 0038, C4.1), so no warning board required in this instance.
 
T

Tom

Guest
Fair enough, but the 45 is straight after a curve IIRC so it would be "handy"
 

Tomnick

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10 Jun 2005
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Well I've put my signalman's hat on and had a drive - it's a nice extension to an already nice route! There's a few niggly things that, to be honest, really made me cringe though (as I said - this was with my signalman's hat on!). I hope you don't mind me listing them here, along with a few suggestions on how to really get the signalling spot on.

  • Not technically 'wrong', but I think Harcroft could do with an advanced starter, roughly a train-length beyond the double-line junction following the tunnel.
  • You need a distant signal associated with the 'platform starter' at the second station (sorry, forgot to make a note of the name!). I'd treat this as an intermediate block section, as there doesn't appear to be a signalbox at this location (and there's no need for one!)...so both these signals will be motor-worked from Harcroft (maybe colour-light signals would be more appropriate?). The IB Distant will probably be best located underneath the advanced starter at Harcroft - the colour light equivalent would be a 3-aspect signal
  • The signals between there and Belstoke appear to be uncontrolled by anyone! I suppose you could treat them as a further IB section...but it might be better to abolish them and pop a ground frame in to control the facing connection to the siding (or even abolish the siding!)
  • The distant signal for the 'box between Belstoke and Mincote's Head is far too close to the home signal - it needs moving much closer to Belstoke.
  • That box would probably also benefit from an advanced starter signal, located above the distant for Mincote's Head (which could probably be moved a fair distance closer to Mincote's Head itself).
  • Mincote's Head would benefit from another signal too, just beyond the end of the platform. (In both cases, the associated distant signal would need recoding to take account of the fact that an extra section needs to be clear before it'll come 'off')
  • I was quite worried to receive a clear indication at Scourington's distant, only to find the home signal at danger! Probably just a simple error in the code? More fundamentally, it could also do with an additional home signal just before the trailing crossover.
  • The box controlling Colliers South Loop could do with a distant signal (that'd be at caution for moves into the loop, providing the advance warning that Jordy speaketh of). It'd probably be best located just before the facing crossover...
  • ...but that position light signal 'protecting' the facing crossover is really unnecessary! Best to assume that you've got a ground frame, and leave signals out of it, otherwise you'll have to think about a load of other complications.
  • I reckon a fixed distant arm under the home signal at Colliers South would look nice, acting as Colliers Stone's distant. It'll never come 'off', because the next box has a fixed red attached to the buffer stops!
  • I'm prepared to be corrected, but I believe that AWS is normally only provided at distant signals in semaphore areas.
  • And finally, those facing crossovers mid-section (one after the first station, a facing and a trailing crossover just before Belstoke, and a facing crossover half-a-mile or so before Colliers South Loop) - are they really necessary? It wouldn't be impossible to have a mid-section crossover controlled from a ground frame, but even then it'd usually be a trailing crossover (and not provided with signals).

Hopefully I've not overloaded you with information! I'm really not a great fan of posting lists of 'faults', but hopefully you'll agree that these are fairly minor things that, with a few simple-ish fixes, will really make it spot on! Chat to me on MSN (or post here) if you need me to clarify anything - and if a diagram would be helpful, I'll quickly put one together.

With my 'normal' hat back on again - well done on a most enjoyable route :)

Oh - just one more point in Rich's defence...whether advance warning of a PSR is required by the current standard or not, there's a good chance that PSR signage on this route pre-dates the standard - obviously S&T haven't got round to correcting it yet ;)
 

1D53

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Cracking extension to an already superb route.

The viaduct and long length tunnels are superb.
 

Bill EWS

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10 Feb 2006
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662
Location
Didcot
Hi,
Richard has done a nice job of the route updates, in general. However, I feel that he may have been pushed into publishing the updates before they were fully ready by some of the comments made previously. I have been discussing things with him and suggested a few signal additions or changes but he published the route files before letting me see what changes he had made. This would have avoided publishing these errors.

As Tomnick says, the signaling is 'technically' OK. However, because of the layouts that Richard wanted at certain places I accepted these as long as basic signalling worked as far as driving trains was concerned.

In the case where speed restrictions are concerned these are mainly down to driver's route knowledge. You should know these before signing the route knowledge card. In BVE this is rather overlooked. Advanced warning ramps etc only come in under certain conditions and according to rules and regulations. My aim on learning a new route was to learn the 'slowest' speeds first then let the maximum speeds take care of themselves. Anyone can drive fast but you have to know when to slow down, and stop.

Most of the signals on the route work fine, but the worst omission is a distant signal for the spit signal taking you into Collier's loop. Richard placed an AWS ramp on the viaduct but hasn't included a distant signal to go with it. Because you are going into the loop (freight route) you should have a 'buzzer' at the ramp and not a bell as you will not know which signal is cleared until you see it, which you don't in this case due to the tunnel mouth. But also you can't run straight into the loop without a signal check. Normally you would be checked down until approaching the split junction signal, but in the case of BVE it would be acceptable simply to have a 'yellow' signal and be prepared to stop at the control signal, the fact that it is aready clear for the loop is OK as you should be almost stopping by the time you see the signal.

Running into the terminal station isn't correct either as, again, you wouldn't have a clear signal to run into the deadend platform without having a distant signal check (with AWS buzzer) before hand. There should be a distant signal to bring you down to a stop, or near to a stop, for the signal prior to the station and for taking the 'branch' line at Collier's Stone Station. Wherever you have an actual 'stop' signal be it semaphore or MAS you must have a 'yellow' distant check. Peronally I didn't care for them as in fog or falling snow you could easily miss the stop signal. But I also agreed with the reasoning behind this in that if a driver received too many 'warnings' over a short distance they could also equally get confused, therefore in this case they knew exactly why they were getting a warning.

In the case of Collier's Stone the signal prior to the final signal could be a Stop signal with a distant arm below it. This was common when signalling was very close together in built-up areas of semaphore working.

Tomnick is also correct in that AWS is mostly only placed at Distant signals on lines such as Scourenton is based upon and the actual 'stop' signal doesn't necessarily have one.

There are a few anomilies with timings, in that Richard has added the correct bmp timetables but not made some corrections in the Timetable Editor or perhaps made a typo. In the case of 2C45 (156) he shows an arrival time at Dockcroft as 12.02 but departure as 12.1330 instead of 12.0330.

With 7H59 (37) the timings should be: 15.5700 - 15.58 departure and 16.14 arrival at Collier's Loop. Those with a Timetable Editor can make these changes themselves but others will require the correct Route Files.

I am having a strange problem with the Class 31 file! (1Z05) in that while the Starting departure time is 07.0815, which shows as correct in the route file, whenever I load the file up the clock starts at 00.002. I entered the route file into the Timetable Editor and deliberately deleted the two timings and retyped them again and saved the file. When I next loaded up the file it started up with the correct time on the clock. However, when I loaded the file up again a bit later the clock returned to 00.002. No idea what that's about!!!!

Whatever. I hope that this is a lesson to those who keep badgering authors to get their route or updates out as quickly as possible. Just wait a bit and you will get a route with as few errors as possible.

Outside this Richard has produced a very good route.

Cheers.

Bill.
 

The Snap

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Cheers for the comments guys.

Tomnick and Bill:

I will use the advice you've given, and release patch at a later date.

What I'm going to do is this:

I will create a small patch correcting the minor things that can be done in a few minutes or so, and release it. The more complex and time consuming things (such as the signaling errors) will be rectified in time for Martin Corbett's Class 50. This way, I can release v2.1, with all the corrections, and a Class 50 diagram too.

The small patch will be available shortly.

In the meantime, I hope you enjoy the route. :)
 

devon_metro

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11 Oct 2005
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London
A nice update! There needs to be far more warning of the last station though, by the time I had seen it i came flying into the bay at 60mph!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Class 31 route file also seems to link to the wrong train, and I noticed I was driving at 00:00!
 

Bill EWS

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10 Feb 2006
Messages
662
Location
Didcot
Hi Liam,
I meant to mention the Class 31 failure to load up. The train name in the route file is typed as class31 instead of CLASS 31. I made the change and the train was found and worked correctly.

Cheers.

BillEWS.
 

The Snap

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10 Jun 2005
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3,147
Patch has been uploaded.

Please download it from http://www.bveroutes-trains.co.uk/routes/harcroft.html (Press F5 to refresh page)

This small file will correct the errors with the Class 31 routefile, has rectified some graphical issues resulting in frame rates problems, and adds a route map. The ReadMe file has also been slightly adjusted.

Thanks,
 

Coxster

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9 Jun 2005
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Also note the patch installs to Program Files\BVE where as the main route installs to Program Files\mackoy\BVE4 so make sure you edit the path accordingly. I personally use the former so I can have all BVE2 and BVE4 stuff together, therefore saving on disk space (don't need the same things in different places) and making life a lot simpler.
 

The Snap

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The patch should be set to install to Program Files\mackoy\BVE4 Damon...;)
 

The Snap

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Not unless you've just re-uploaded it.


I know but anyone who just wizzes through such installers might not think to check, hence my friendly note ;)

No, the original issue of the patch was directed to Program Files\mackoy\BVE4 - was at my end anyway!

Anyway, there's a new version of the patch uploaded now, which sorts out a tiny error with the 31 file. :)
 

Coxster

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Re-downloaded it and I have a drop-down box with both locations on it, but the Program Files\BVE one comes up by default here. See attachment.
 

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