Harrasment

[island]

I would write to the MD of the TOC and complain about this employee in the strongest possible terms. If she ever shouts again that you are a known fare dodger and have been prosecuted - if other people hear it then you have a possible case for slander against the employee.

As I understand it, an action for defamation (the modern name for slander) requires the claimant to prove serious harm to his reputation. There may or may not also be a defence available to the employee in question of an honestly-held opinion, even if the opinion transpires to be incorrect.

 

[jon0844]

If the OP had given fake details and left a train (and then the station without paying) then the offence was very much real.

 

[BestWestern]

Oh dear Sounds to me as if the OP was simply wrong footed here by a badly trained (or poorly self disciplined) member of staff on a bit of a power trip. Assuming the details are as given - this chap sounds pretty genuine to me - I'd probably have done the same under the circumstances. This demonstrates the pretty shoddy way that a small minority of railway staff can steamroller straight over just about anybody and very probably come out on top. Professionalism and procedure entirely optional in some cases, it's just the wild accusation from a Guard or revenue bod that counts and then the punter is in a whole world of bother :-/

To the OP, if you have a reasonable alternative means of making the journey then it may be worth considering it to avoid any unexpected follow ups from the initial incident. I'd like to say that this staff member will likely get caught out in the end, but sadly in my experience some can last a whole career with their abysmal attitude on full display.

 

[martybabes]

As I understand it, an action for defamation (the modern name for slander) requires the claimant to prove serious harm to his reputation. There may or may not also be a defence available to the employee in question of an honestly-held opinion, even if the opinion transpires to be incorrect.

I seem to recall that the term "defamation" covers both slander (spoken) and libel (printed) tho I may be wrong...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I seem to recall that the term "defamation" covers both slander (spoken) and libel (printed) tho I may be wrong...

To quote from the Act: "any method of signifying meaning".

 

[185]

If the OP had given fake details and left a train (and then the station without paying) then the offence was very much real.

Agree. I took that as an admission of guilt. If the card does not work, time to go get some cash from a cashpoint. And if the cashpoint does not work, time to call the bank to find out why. People need to take responsibility.

 

[Captain Chaos]

This all sounds like a scenario I get day in, day out. People come up to me with Visa Debit Cards and say "can you swipe it please, as it doesn't work". It does. The procedure should be to get the PIN, let the machine decline it, then key it in. The authorisation code will be generated as normal, passenger gets ticket, TOC gets money. Sorted.

It's always the same people I see, from the same stations with the same working facilities that always board and ask you to "swipe it" instead. I have also had people ask me to do it when it actually works with the PIN. The simple fact is that if we swipe it without asking for the PIN then the TOC's have very little hope of getting the money for the ticket. This could be why the inspector could have got funny and decided to not sell a ticket maybe?

I will never swipe a card unless it doesn't have a chip, so it's pointless in asking me. Just put your PIN in and I will sort the rest. It's not hard. It's not difficult. It's not a problem. You'll get your ticket, we'll get our money. So, why insist on swiping it in the first place? If people know their cards don't work on the train properly, then why are they trying, day in, day out to do so? Apologies if I sound cynical or sceptical. It's just that I see this thing so often it tends to make me see it that way.

Would the OP be willing to divulge the TOC and the journey being made by any chance...?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The simple fact is that if we swipe it without asking for the PIN then the TOC's have very little hope of getting the money for the ticket.

Just put your PIN in and I will sort the rest. It's not hard. It's not difficult. It's not a problem. You'll get your ticket, we'll get our money.

Firstly, the top bit is wrong. The TOC will get their money for a swiped card sale in just the same way they will for a PIN sale, or a Contactless sale. The only difference is that if the card is being used fraudulently (e.g. after being stolen) and you swipe it, then the bank will not honour the transaction.

Secondly, it depends on what machines you're using and what bank the card is with. I know Northern struggle with Co-Operative Bank Visa Debit cards, even at the ticket office and on TVMs. If I remember in time I'll get cash out, but I don't always remember this until I've had the problem. The argument about whose fault it is is an old one (I firmly blame Northern) but there you go. I understand their machines simply state "declined", rather than directing you to a voice authorisation.

 

[Captain Chaos]

But that isn't what we are being told and nor is it the proper procedure for dealing with these cards. Anyone who is swiping the card straight away without asking for the PIN is deviating from the agreed method of processing these cards. We know there is a problem, this is the agreed method of dealing with them at my TOC. Whenever you swipe it straight away it asks for an authorisation code. The machine doesn't create it like with a PIN transaction. The proper way of doing that is to make a phone call with the processors to get it. We have been told we have been losing quite a bit of money in the past due to swiping taking place.

If we weren't getting paid on swiped transactions then why am I getting people with credit cards and cards that I know work with the PIN insist that I swipe it instead of putting it through the machine? Something's not right. I think I'm probably right to be suspicous in those circumstances. Ultimately I can only go on what I am being told.

 

[jon0844]

I think in most cases, a swiped card would be paid as normal. The problem is that the person who paid that way could easily claim they didn't make the payment and then there's probably no chance of it being paid.

As such, I can see why people might try and pay this way and then claim they had their card stolen or lost to get out of paying their bill later on.

So, unless the chip doesn't work (and I believe people can try and damage the chip to force a swiped payment?) then you shouldn't swipe on request.

 

[island]

While payment will be made from the bank to the merchant for a swiped chip card, the bank can take it back any time within the next 120 days for any reason, and the merchant has no recourse.

 

[bnm]

Anyone who is swiping the card straight away without asking for the PIN is deviating from the agreed method of processing these cards.

What is the agreed method of processing a Chip & Signature card? Not everyone has a PIN. I don't. Sometimes I tell the Guard that it's a Chip & Signature and it is swiped without recourse to the card reader. Other times after telling it's a C&S it is used in the card reader first and the transaction is processed after the Guard sees the message that a signature is required. Sometimes the card reader fails to show the message to the operator that a signature is required rather than a PIN, so the Guard then swipes.

Three different methods by staff from one TOC. Are they all agreed methods? If your avatar is a reflection of the TOC you work for then I'm talking about the same TOC.

 

[Flamingo]

Out of the last three people who had "card declined" with me and did not have an alternative means of paying, when I rang the bank for an authorisation code, the bank declined to authorise it as well. They all told me "It always does that, you need to swipe it". All of them said they had come from stations with booking offices and TVM's.

They all got asked to leave the train and sort it out at the next station, much to the very vocal disgust of two of them. (They were all daytime trains and manned stations, before anybody accuses me of leaving passengers stranded late at night).

Maybe I've just had a bad run...

 

[maniacmartin]

Maybe it always does that because the individuals in question always have no funds in the corresponding account!

 

[455driver]

People need to take responsibility.

Good luck with that!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If we weren't getting paid on swiped transactions then why am I getting people with credit cards and cards that I know work with the PIN insist that I swipe it instead of putting it through the machine? Something's not right. I think I'm probably right to be suspicous in those circumstances. Ultimately I can only go on what I am being told.

I really don't blame you for being suspicious. I would be as well. I know that TOCs do get their payment though, as I've had to do swipe transactions a few times recently with my Visa Debit card. It took the TOC an age to get their money (seemed to be almost three months before the money went out of my account when EastCoast took one) but it did go. Same when North Yorkshire Moors Railway took a swipe payment because they didn't have a PIN reader at Levisham station.

 

[Harlesden]

I really don't understand the OP's assertion that the ticket inspector "dislikes" card payments.
The OP doesn't appear to understand that a Penalty Fare is something totally normally issued to dozens of ticketless passengers each day. No ticket = automatic Penalty Fare on some parts of the network.
The correct way is to accept the Penalty Fare and then appeal. So simple.

 

[island]

I really don't blame you for being suspicious. I would be as well. I know that TOCs do get their payment though, as I've had to do swipe transactions a few times recently with my Visa Debit card. It took the TOC an age to get their money (seemed to be almost three months before the money went out of my account when EastCoast took one) but it did go. Same when North Yorkshire Moors Railway took a swipe payment because they didn't have a PIN reader at Levisham station.

The bank can also do a chargeback on a transaction that isn't presented for over a month from the transaction. It is not that the merchant doesn't get paid, but that the bank can reverse off the transaction for not meeting the rules.

 

[sarahj]

We have had an issue recently where a pass has been buying a high value weekly season, signing for it, then geting their bank to do a chargeback on the ammount each week. The passenger is now being hunted down as they owe us over £1000 in fares. We have had the same attitude of a previous poster where as long as the pin has been entered correctly, a 'type in' could be done, but this recent case may change that.
As I've said before in other threads on cards, you see the same cards (and sometime the same people) whoose cards decline again and again, and even know some people who are happy with this as when the card is signed for after the original decline, as it takes longer for the TOC to take the money, as they are broke when the original journey is made, but will have cash in later.

And I've said before, there are people who look for 'weak' conductors who are happy to take payments without a pin for large tickets on unknown cards. I've turned down large ticket transactions like this, where the the buyer was not that bothered, knowing someone, somewhere would do the ticket, no questions asked.

 

[185]

And I've said before, there are people who look for 'weak' conductors who are happy to take payments without a pin for large tickets on unknown cards

Or commission mad ones. A regular used to be about 4-5 with Australian debit cards, who would board a local service asking for London FORs (£2-300), often heading in the wrong direction from where that journey would have started from - so obvious and so blatant.

On ringing up the automated Barclays Merchant Authorisation line (which a few of us had access to), most had "Withhold card" as the automated message.

 

[sarahj]

It is said that many of these large tickets bought with iffy cards are then taken straight to a ticket office for a refund. But yes, you knew what I meant by 'weak' guards.

 

[jon0844]

Reminds me of the enterprising beggars asking for money to help get home. Insisting the money needed was for travel, people were asked to buy them the ticket to 'prove' they weren't lying.

Of course, the scam was simple: get a refund straight after!

Now, I assume you can only get a refund the way you paid? Should staff ever refund cash on a ticket paid for on a card?

 

[reb0118]

Now, I assume you can only get a refund the way you paid? Should staff ever refund cash on a ticket paid for on a card?

No, I think the problem was folk purchasing tickets on trains with credit cards (knowing that there will be a delay in processing from ontrain transactions) then attempting to refund onto a debit card.

Previously on avantix it was possible to refund onto a different card but since the introduction of chip 'n' pin and the thyron device this is no longer possible.

I am not sure of the process if you ask for a refund at a different location from where you purchased it.

 

[island]

I am not sure of the process if you ask for a refund at a different location from where you purchased it.

In theory the ticket should be sent for processing centrally.

 

[Gricerjo]

Apart from giving a false name and address this customer seems to have done nothing wrong.

Sadly, some TOC staff become cynical and jaundiced due to the actions of a minority of fare dodgers. One ruse is to present a credit or debit card to the on-board conductor either with no funds on it, or one that has been deliberately corrupted. When the card id declined, the passenger then indignantly claims the bank is to blame, sometimes even pretending to call the bank on their mobile.

TOC staff’s cynicism is often confirmed on the occasions they do take action against fare dodgers by management’s refusal to back them up. Several years ago, I ejected a ticketless teenage lout from the train for trying the dodgy debit card scam. He was aged 17 and was apparently owed a “duty of care”. He duly complained to his parents who contacted their MP and I was subsequently hailed over the coals.

 

[Tibbs]

Apart from giving a false name and address this customer seems to have done nothing wrong.

Sadly, some TOC staff become cynical and jaundiced due to the actions of a minority of fare dodgers. One ruse is to present a credit or debit card to the on-board conductor either with no funds on it, or one that has been deliberately corrupted. When the card id declined, the passenger then indignantly claims the bank is to blame, sometimes even pretending to call the bank on their mobile.

TOC staff’s cynicism is often confirmed on the occasions they do take action against fare dodgers by management’s refusal to back them up. Several years ago, I ejected a ticketless teenage lout from the train for trying the dodgy debit card scam. He was aged 17 and was apparently owed a “duty of care”. He duly complained to his parents who contacted their MP and I was subsequently hailed over the coals.

If he was 17, then you did owe him a duty of care, and you evidently failed that.

Your duties don't get put to one side just because you don't like someone.

 

[Flamingo]

If he was 17, then you did owe him a duty of care, and you evidently failed that.

Your duties don't get put to one side just because you don't like someone.

Only if ejected at an unmanned station...

 

[carriageline]

If he was 17, then you did owe him a duty of care, and you evidently failed that.

Your duties don't get put to one side just because you don't like someone.

Absolutely Brilliant..

What if, said teen got in a cab to his home town, instead of the train, then half way through said "I have no money mate", would you also expect the taxi driver to keep going and take him home, or pull over and get the little skiver out?

Although it's a different scenario, they are not a million miles apart in reality


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tibbs]

I would expect the taxi driver to take him home, then bang on the door and ask his parents to pay. Or, drive him to the nearest police station and drop him off there, logging with the Police the debt owed. Then claim it off his him / his parents.

Like it or not, people under 18 must be treated differently because they're not adults. If you don't like it, feel free to lobby your MP to reduce the age of majority.

What do you think the age of majority should be?

 

[185]

If he was 17, then you did owe him a duty of care, and you evidently failed that.

Your duties don't get put to one side just because you don't like someone.

Brilliant. Welcome to 'not my fault' Britain 2013.