HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

[Ianno87]

It also means an end to the barmy and crazy idea of concentrating the all the expresses on the WCML, MML and ECML on to one single pair of tracks between Birmingham International and Euston; meaning if one train breaks down, or the catenary breaks, the entire London to Midlands North of England/Scotland intercity service is royally and totally foobarred.

1) How often does that happen on HS1? Not very.

2) By definition, if HS2 does go down, you have the combination of the ECML, MML, WCML and Chiltern routes to act as backup.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I don't. There is an under used four track railway (North Midland Main line) linking the two sections together and it will get a significant upgrade meaning that Leeds will still get much faster services than at present.

Which suggests they've undersold what they are now proposing. After all, significant lengths of Phase 1, particularly around Calvert, can be considered an upgrade of the Great Central Main Line.
And by using an existing alignment there is likely to be less opposition from environmentalists and local property owners

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It also means an end to the barmy and crazy idea of concentrating the all the expresses on the WCML, MML and ECML on to one single pair of tracks between Birmingham International and Euston; meaning if one train breaks down, or the catenary breaks, the entire London to Midlands North of England/Scotland intercity service is royally and totally foobarred.

That's how the trunk HS lines work in France (Paris-Lyon), Italy (Florence-Rome) and Spain (Madrid-Cordoba).
How many times have they been closed (given they are reversibly signalled and have mostly single-track-cantilevered OHL on wide track centres)?
Milan-Bologna was closed for a period recently after a collision, but the network survived on diversions.

 

[Grumpy Git]

1) How often does that happen on HS1? Not very.

........... unless they use the same equipment as on the northern half of the ECML?

 

[HSTEd]

........... unless they use the same equipment as on the northern half of the ECML?

Why would they do that?

This is the network rail era, everything is overengineered to an almost comical degree.

Value engineering is an anathema.

 

[21C101]

1) How often does that happen on HS1? Not very.

2) By definition, if HS2 does go down, you have the combination of the ECML, MML, WCML and Chiltern routes to act as backup.

It goes down often enough, and matters less because all it carries is one or two high speed trains an hour plus a bunch of jumped up commuter trains on 125mph schedules.

There would no longer be crack intercity trains on those routes, the trains will be slower and have far more stops and wouldn't have the capacity for all the HS2 passengers to suddenly arrive in any case.

That's how the trunk HS lines work in France (Paris-Lyon), Italy (Florence-Rome) and Spain (Madrid-Cordoba).
How many times have they been closed (given they are reversibly signalled and have mostly single-track-cantilevered OHL on wide track centres)?
Milan-Bologna was closed for a period recently after a collision, but the network survived on diversions.

Reversible signalling is not much mitigation when you are trying to run 17 trains an hour.

The ECML still being a crack Anglo Scottish Intercity route is such mitigation by providing what is called in communications networks redundancy (ie a completely diverse path) or what Beeching called wasteful duplicate routes.

 

[HSTEd]

The ECML still being a crack Anglo Scottish Intercity route is such mitigation by providing what is called in communications networks redundancy (ie a completely diverse path) or what Beeching called wasteful duplicate routes.

It is in no way going to be a "crack" route even if HS2 East is discarded entirely.

Essentially all London-Scotland traffic will decamp to the WCML anyway once HS2 reaches Crewe.

You would be carting air up and down the ECML all day, every day, for occasional use during disruption.

That's a very very expensive way of providing "redundancy".

 

[Ianno87]

It goes down often enough, and matters less because all it carries is one or two high speed trains an hour plus a bunch of jumped up commuter trains on 125mph schedules.

There would no longer be crack intercity trains on those routes, the trains will be slower and have far more stops and wouldn't have the capacity for all the HS2 passengers to suddenly arrive in any case.

So your alternative is build nothing and have no resilience?

 

[59CosG95]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1008212/New_Safeguarding_Leeds_Vol4_watermarked_02-08-21_UPDATE_2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/914279/Volume_1_EL_PL_map.pdf

The safeguarding maps have been updated - not sure if this was covered earlier this year. Toton to just north of Sheffield has gone, but the Church Fenton connection appears to have, for now at least, survived.

 

[21C101]

So your alternative is build nothing and have no resilience?

Egregious distortion of what I said award of the day.

No one, not even the Treasury are planning to build nothing.

All they are cancelling is a sixty mile stretch from Trent Junction (aka East Midlands Parkway) to a point a few miles north of Rotherham and upgrading the under used North Midland Erewash Valley and Old Road Main line to fill in the gap with journey times only 20 minutes longer.

They will as a result be running trains from Euston to place like Nottingham and Derby instead of diverting the East Coast Anglo Scottish trains onto it, as well as Euston to Leeds and Sheffield.

 

[HSTEd]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1008212/New_Safeguarding_Leeds_Vol4_watermarked_02-08-21_UPDATE_2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/914279/Volume_1_EL_PL_map.pdf

The safeguarding maps have been updated - not sure if this was covered earlier this year. Toton to just north of Sheffield has gone, but the Church Fenton connection appears to have, for now at least, survived.

I'm somewhat confused - but is that a stub of a junction where it crosses the Doncaster-Leeds line?

 

[Halish Railway]

What’s the point of building a new line parralel to the M/A42 when you could build a line parallel to the Derby-Birmingham route & also serve Burton-on-Trent & Tamworth, as well as Nottingham via Donnington?

 

[21C101]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1008212/New_Safeguarding_Leeds_Vol4_watermarked_02-08-21_UPDATE_2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/914279/Volume_1_EL_PL_map.pdf

The safeguarding maps have been updated - not sure if this was covered earlier this year. Toton to just north of Sheffield has gone, but the Church Fenton connection appears to have, for now at least, survived.

So it is now official and no more is it speculation.

 

[class26]

What’s the point of building a new line parralel to the M/A42 when you could build a line parallel to the Derby-Birmingham route & also serve Burton-on-Trent & Tamworth, as well as Nottingham via Donnington?

Not going to be high speed if you are stopping at Tamworth and Burton though is it ? They are too close to achieve any meaningful speed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So it is now official and no more is it speculation.

Been like that for 10 months going by the date on the maps...
Doesn't help the NPR route though (unless it too has been scrapped).

 

[21C101]

Been like that for 10 months going by the date on the maps...
Doesn't help the NPR route though (unless it too has been scrapped).

I don't think they have changed any drawings, from what the poster says they have just withdrawn the drawings for the canned section.

 

[snowball]

What’s the point of building a new line parralel to the M/A42 when you could build a line parallel to the Derby-Birmingham route & also serve Burton-on-Trent & Tamworth, as well as Nottingham via Donnington?

A lot of built-up areas in the way.

 

[59CosG95]

What’s the point of building a new line parralel to the M/A42 when you could build a line parallel to the Derby-Birmingham route & also serve Burton-on-Trent & Tamworth, as well as Nottingham via Donnington?

To show the motorists what they're missing out on

 

[ABB125]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1008212/New_Safeguarding_Leeds_Vol4_watermarked_02-08-21_UPDATE_2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/914279/Volume_1_EL_PL_map.pdf

The safeguarding maps have been updated - not sure if this was covered earlier this year. Toton to just north of Sheffield has gone, but the Church Fenton connection appears to have, for now at least, survived.

Interesting that the safeguarding appears to end where the new HS2 line crosses the Doncaster-Leeds line. Is this an indication of the new plan?

I'm somewhat confused - but is that a stub of a junction where it crosses the Doncaster-Leeds line?

Was a maintenance depot or something planned for near Crofton?

EDIT: having checked the HS2 route map here (https://www.hs2.org.uk/where/route-map/#12/53.6673/-1.4553), it appears not.

 

[Horizon22]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1008212/New_Safeguarding_Leeds_Vol4_watermarked_02-08-21_UPDATE_2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/914279/Volume_1_EL_PL_map.pdf

The safeguarding maps have been updated - not sure if this was covered earlier this year. Toton to just north of Sheffield has gone, but the Church Fenton connection appears to have, for now at least, survived.

Removing safeguarding seems a bit short-sighted. Even if the immediate term means a scheme is cancelled or has no progress, safeguarding land is vital. In London there's swathes of land safeguarded for Crossrail 2 which (up until today) was even less likely than HS2 Leeds leg.

 

[Ianno87]

Removing safeguarding seems a bit short-sighted. Even if the immediate term means a scheme is cancelled or has no progress, safeguarding land is vital. In London there's swathes of land safeguarded for Crossrail 2 which (up until today) was even less likely than HS2 Leeds leg.

Safeguarding does not prevent anything being built - merely that the person doing the building must consult with HS2/TfL/whoever.

Given the (seeming) outcome of Thursday's IRP, attempting to maintain all the safeguarding may, in effect, be legally indefensible.

 

[Starmill]

HS2's report into Phase 1 costs had a an estimate of around 9% difference in costs between the scheme as designed and one where it dropped down to 'classic' 125mph speeds.

I swear I've just had a deja vu.

Or maybe you've actually previously responded as much. And to the same person!

 

[tomuk]

Removing safeguarding seems a bit short-sighted. Even if the immediate term means a scheme is cancelled or has no progress, safeguarding land is vital. In London there's swathes of land safeguarded for Crossrail 2 which (up until today) was even less likely than HS2 Leeds leg.

They haven't removed the safeguarding, the maps were always split into multiple sections. Here is the one for Toton to Barnsley

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1023400/Safeguarding_maps_Phase_2b_Eastern_route_-_watermark_29-09-21_Ext.pdf

 

[thejuggler]

Speaking to someone last week heavily involved in HS2 he won't be surprised by this news, but he did suggest Leeds would still get a new station.

Was a maintenance depot or something planned for near Crofton?

EDIT: having checked the HS2 route map here (https://www.hs2.org.uk/where/route-map/#12/53.6673/-1.4553), it appears not.

The HS2 stock depot was planned for an area to the east of Leeds and shown on the plans. This caused a headache for Leeds as the area had been planned for a business park.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The reported budget for the integrated rail package is £96 billion.
You should be able to get a decent set of railway upgrades for that.
But then the Mail report includes things like phasing out paper tickets, trams for Leeds and reopening a couple of lines (Stocksbridge and "Stockport to Ashton"), to muddy the waters.
And its all going to happen quicker, cheaper...

 

[Bald Rick]

It goes down often enough, and matters less because all it carries is one or two high speed trains an hour plus a bunch of jumped up commuter trains on 125mph schedules.

how often is ‘often enough’?

in my experience about once every other year.

 

[HSTEd]

how often is ‘often enough’?

in my experience about once every other year.

I'm sure even more overspeccing of the HS2 infrastructure for reliability would be cheaper than maintaining wholey seperate routes for coverage!

 

[Shrop]

This latest news about downgrading of HS2 (Eastern arm) is shameful, but it's nevertheless one of the least surprising aspects of the project since its ill-conceived design some 15 years ago.

There is no political party that properly supports rail advancement. It’s a failing of human nature that most people who have money prefer to travel by car, and having money is usually a function of being an MP (ie it isn’t something we can just blame on the Tories), but this car preference once again sees rail investment suffer. I’ve never been a strong supporter of HS2 as I firmly believe far better options were available, but that still doesn’t prevent a feeling of despair that yet again, rail investment is to be reduced.

Quite how the Government can pretend to support the reduction of carbon emissions at Cop26, and then massively reduce a carbon saving project within days, really does defy belief.

 

[deltic]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1008212/New_Safeguarding_Leeds_Vol4_watermarked_02-08-21_UPDATE_2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/914279/Volume_1_EL_PL_map.pdf

The safeguarding maps have been updated - not sure if this was covered earlier this year. Toton to just north of Sheffield has gone, but the Church Fenton connection appears to have, for now at least, survived.

Arent these the old HS2 safeguarding maps which show the Sheffield spur off HS2 back on to the MML and have nothing to do with the latest proposals

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Removing safeguarding seems a bit short-sighted. Even if the immediate term means a scheme is cancelled or has no progress, safeguarding land is vital. In London there's swathes of land safeguarded for Crossrail 2 which (up until today) was even less likely than HS2 Leeds leg.

Where is the like button? 100% agree.