HST sets and originally planned formations - 2 catering vehicles for XC as well?

[Helvellyn]

Well some fascinating archive stuff has appears since I looked at this thread before going to bed last night!

I had always assumed that 253028 & 030 received the same treatment, but perhaps I was wrong. One thing I am slightly more confident of is that I think the first sets to be dealt with in the main refurbishment/IC repainting programme (ie those from 1985 onwards) received what @Helvellyn describes as a 'facelift' rather than a 'refurbishment' - in standard class at least. I will have to look in my P5 books and see if there is any differentiation between the two at all.

It seems to be a real mixed bag looking at the books!

• Facelifted seems to be "new upholstery, carpets, etc." in the 1988 combined volume; and
• Refurbished seems to be "new style Inter-City 70 seats, new carpets, etc."

New panels are referred to in some entries, but I think they all got that the difference in First Class being plastic in facelifted coaches then the wall carpeting in refurbished ones.

Mark 2F coaches that were refurbished also got power operated vestibule doors.

As an aside i just spotted in the 1985 Combined Volume that M11011 got IC80 seats, but every volume after that has a notes reference to show any Mk 3A coaches fitted with these but it's not shown against any coach!

 

[theblackwatch]

On the WR the sets initially outshopped from 1985 onwardsi n executive livery received C2 overhauls which was a general/heavy repair. Perhaps the closest you could get to a Refurb?

It's probably worth remembering that the first WR sets to have a C2 overhaul (253001-10) came out in standard blue/grey, with 253011 being the first WR set (other that 028/030) to emerge in 'Executive' colours - although it was beaten by 254016, which was released in this livery a few weeks earlier after a C2 (even though I reckon it was only due a C4). There were others which received a refurbishment/facelift odd time too, including 42325 which was new in late 1984 and had a C2R before the end of 1985.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, although not quite that simple:

• 40519/40520 were converted first as prototype vehicles, and as RSMs with 24 low backed seats (picture coming in a later post!), and numbered 10200/10201.
• The remaining ten vehicles listed above were then converted as the first production conversions (along with 18 Mk 3A FOs and all 28 Mk 3A RFBs), numbered 10202-10211.
• The four vehicles listed above as being converted for Royal use were all taken out of service at the same time as those to be converted to LHCS, but were converted for Royal use at Wolverton over a few years (possibly one at a time).
• This left the for remaining vehicles - 40501/505/511 as TRFKs for use in the two East Coast Pullmans and 40513 as the unique TLFK (or Executive Saloon).

One thing - is there a particular reason the prototypes were RSM but the production conversions RFM? Why the change in classification of the seating.

If anything it seems more unusual the prototypes were not first class given the original Mk3 buffets became RFB

 

[dubscottie]

One thing - is there a particular reason the prototypes were RSM but the production conversions RFM? Why the change in classification of the seating.

If anything it seems more unusual the prototypes were not first class given the original Mk3 buffets became RFB

The first 2 were more of a proof of concept. It was really more to test the catering than seat layout.

Here is the article from the Aug 1986 Modern Railways. Written by Nigel Harris






The seating layout is explained on page 4.

 

[hexagon789]

The first 2 were more of a proof of concept. It was really more to test the catering than seat layout.

Here is the article from the Aug 1986 Modern Railways. Written by Nigel Harris

View attachment 76835
View attachment 76836
View attachment 76837
View attachment 76838

The seating layout is explained on page 4.

Thanks for scanning that in, it's always interesting to read the background on these things

 

[Helvellyn]

Interesting article Dubscottie, so thank you. The Mark 4s also got the Modular catering kitchen/buffet, including the smaller buffet counter. However, HSTs kept their large buffet counters (double the length of a Mark 3A or Mark 4 one), even after their kitchen/buffet facilities were finally upgraded in the early 1990s.

I don't think the prototype TRFM was a success, because when the HST refurbishment happened the 37 TRBs (402xx)/TRSBs (404xx) and 57 TRFBs (407xx) were all refurbished but the unique TRFM 40619 wasn't converted back to a TRFB and it became a spare catering vehicle along with the three TRFKs. I might have to find the Railway Magazine article detailing the HST catering car refurbishment.

 

[WesternLancer]

Great to see the uploaded scans that have been put here - plenty of the hard to find interior pics that are so useful to see. Many thanks to hose who have posted them.

 

[Western Sunset]

Going back to the OP for a moment, the RCTS Coaching Stock book of 1976 shows the following:

253 001 - 027 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/DMB

254 001 - 032 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/TS/DMB

Lot 30883 = 40001 - 27
Lot 30884 = 40501 - 27

Lot 30898 = 40528 - 59
Lot 30899 = 40028 - 59

 

[43096]

Going back to the OP for a moment, the RCTS Coaching Stock book of 1976 shows the following:

253 001 - 027 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/DMB

254 001 - 032 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/TS/DMB

Lot 30883 = 40001 - 27
Lot 30884 = 40501 - 27

Lot 30898 = 40528 - 59
Lot 30899 = 40028 - 59

There's some great stuff coming out in this thread - thanks to everyone who has contributed.

The Lot No list I have shows Lot 30883 as delivered as planned and Lot 30884 cut back to 20 vehicles (40501-520).
Lot 30898 was cancelled in its entirety and 30899 was cut back to just 10 vehicles: 40028-037.

Instead, an order for 22 TRUBs (40300-321) was placed in April 1976 on lot 30921. I am surmising now, but the order for 28 locomotive hauled RUBs under lot 30890 (ordered 1974) was not delivered until 1979/80 - could this be because kit for them was diverted to the urgent need to deliver the TRUBs?

 

[Helvellyn]

Going back to the OP for a moment, the RCTS Coaching Stock book of 1976 shows the following:

253 001 - 027 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/DMB

254 001 - 032 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/TS/DMB

Lot 30883 = 40001 - 27
Lot 30884 = 40501 - 27

Lot 30898 = 40528 - 59
Lot 30899 = 40028 - 59

There's some great stuff coming out in this thread - thanks to everyone who has contributed.

The Lot No list I have shows Lot 30883 as delivered as planned and Lot 30884 cut back to 20 vehicles (40501-520).
Lot 30898 was cancelled in its entirety and 30899 was cut back to just 10 vehicles: 40028-037.

Instead, an order for 22 TRUBs (40300-321) was placed in April 1976 on lot 30921. I am surmising now, but the order for 28 locomotive hauled RUBs under lot 30890 (ordered 1974) was not delivered until 1979/80 - could this be because kit for them was diverted to the urgent need to deliver the TRUBs?

If the TRSBs and TRUKs had been delivered as intended that would have also affected the orders for TS coaches well.

I know the original order for 253001-253027 was for 81 coaches, increased to 88 when the last seven TRUKs were cancelled. But I am also assuming that that the original order for 254001-254032 would have been for 128 vehicles, rather than the 160 actually delivered. On that basis my assumption is:

• Lot No. 30882 = 42003-42083 (intended) but 42003-42090 (amended)
• Lot No. 30897 = 42084-42211 (intended) but 42091-42250 (amended) with 42091-42110 delivered to the WR to allow 40501-40520 to be cascaded to the ER for use in 254001-254020

I'm also puzzled by the gap in the Lot No.s for the final batch ordered on paper for the ER (sets 92-95):

• Lot No. 30963 = 41167-41169 TF
• Lot No. 30964 = 44091-44094 TGS
• Lot No. 30965 = CANCELLED
• Lot No. 30966 = 40354-40357 TRUB
• Lot No. 30967 = 41170-41175 TF (rebuilt from prototype vehicles)
• Lot No. 30968 = 43191-43198 DM
• Lot No. 30969 = 42306-42322 TS
• Lot No. 30970 = 44095-44101 TGS (spare vehicles intended one per HST depot)

 

[43096]

If the TRSBs and TRUKs had been delivered as intended that would have also affected the orders for TS coaches well.

I know the original order for 253001-253027 was for 81 coaches, increased to 88 when the last seven TRUKs were cancelled. But I am also assuming that that the original order for 254001-254032 would have been for 128 vehicles, rather than the 160 actually delivered. On that basis my assumption is:

• Lot No. 30882 = 42003-42083 (intended) but 42003-42090 (amended)
• Lot No. 30897 = 42084-42211 (intended) but 42091-42250 (amended) with 42091-42110 delivered to the WR to allow 40501-40520 to be cascaded to the ER for use in 254001-254020

That would make sense, the extra 32 TS being accounted for by the 20 to the Western to release the TRUKs and 12 for 254021-032 which had a single TRUB.

I'm also puzzled by the gap in the Lot No.s for the final batch ordered on paper for the ER (sets 92-95):

• Lot No. 30963 = 41167-41169 TF
• Lot No. 30964 = 44091-44094 TGS
• Lot No. 30965 = CANCELLED
• Lot No. 30966 = 40354-40357 TRUB
• Lot No. 30967 = 41170-41175 TF (rebuilt from prototype vehicles)
• Lot No. 30968 = 43191-43198 DM
• Lot No. 30969 = 42306-42322 TS
• Lot No. 30970 = 44095-44101 TGS (spare vehicles intended one per HST depot)

I have lot 30967 as being for 41170-41174, there being 5 prototype vehicles converted for production train use (with 3 departmental and 2 Royal Train accounting for the balance of the 10 built).

 

[theblackwatch]

Hopefully @Western Sunset will be able to confirm the TS showing in the 1976 RCTS book.

Lot 30965 CANCELLED is something interesting which I'd never picked up on before. I also find it rather odd that the Prototype to Production rebuilds were given Lot Numbers as if they were new vehicles rather than a form of conversion.

 

[43096]

I also find it rather odd that the Prototype to Production rebuilds were given Lot Numbers as if they were new vehicles rather than a form of conversion.

They did occasionally do strange things like that. Lot no 30875, for instance, was issued for the renumbering of prototype power cars from 41001/2 to 43000/1. Looking at the list some Royal Train conversions also had new lot numbers issued, as did some of the exhibition train stock and the newspaper vans converted from GUVs.

 

[Western Sunset]

TS from RCTS Book (1976):

Lot 30832 = 42002 (Class 252)
Lot 30847 = 42000/1 (Class 252) Same lot as Mk3 TSO 12001

Lot 30882 = 42003 - 42083 (Class 253)

Lot 30897 = 42084 - 42211 (Class 254)

 

[Helvellyn]

I have lot 30967 as being for 41170-41174, there being 5 prototype vehicles converted for production train use (with 3 departmental and 2 Royal Train accounting for the balance of the 10 built).

Typo by me!

I also find it rather odd that the Prototype to Production rebuilds were given Lot Numbers as if they were new vehicles rather than a form of conversion.

Especially as they retained a number of features that clearly identified them as the former prototypes including:

• no exterior window frames (see image of 42353 where the windows added when universal toilet added show the production versus prototype style);
• only four lights per roof panel versus five in the production coaches; and
• solid mid-coach partitions with no half height glassed pane. (both the last two features can be seen in this picture of one of the prototype TFs from Train Testing)

If they'd been made to look identical to production vehicles I could possibly understand the new Lot No. but perhaps it was to also cover reclassification from 252 to 253/254, or someone thought it was messy the coaches had multiple Lot No.s anyway?

• 41170 built under Lot No. 30848 - ex-41001 (TF), ex-11002 (FO)
• 41171 built under Lot No. 30847 - ex-42001 (TS), ex-12002 (TSO)
• 41172 built under Lot No. 30847 - ex-42000 (TS), ex-12000 (TSO)
• 41173 built under Lot No. 30832 - ex-42002 (TS), ex-12003 (TSO)
• 41174 built under Lot No. 30833 - ex-41002 (TF), ex-11003 (FO)

(And I don't know why 11001/12001 were selected for Royal Conversion when built as part of Lot No.s 30848/30847 respectively, rather than 11003/12003 built under individual Lot No.s)

Oh, and the Mark 3 prototype saloons certainly racked up the numbers. As well as the fact 41171-41174 were converted to TS vehicles the prototype vehicles it seems could have been numbered 3217-3220 (FOs) and 5805-5808 (TSOs) - the latter being smack bang between the two batches of Mark 2E TSOs!

They did occasionally do strange things like that. Lot no 30875, for instance, was issued for the renumbering of prototype power cars from 41001/2 to 43000/1.

Probably because they were built as Class 41 locomotives, but when the whole prototype set (minus 11001/12001) was reclassified as Class 252 DEMU (and vehicles renumbered in the 4xxxx series) you'd have had two DMBs (as they were now classified) that didn't have a Lot No. at all.

They did occasionally do strange things like that... Looking at the list some Royal Train conversions also had new lot numbers issued, as did some of the exhibition train stock and the newspaper vans converted from GUVs.

I've seen reference that the original ten Mark 2F DBSO conversions (9701-9710) were converted under Lot No. 30937 but it was never referenced in the Platform 5 books. 9711-9714 don't seem to have had a new Lot No. for their conversion.

 

[hexagon789]

Going back to the OP for a moment, the RCTS Coaching Stock book of 1976 shows the following:

253 001 - 027 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/DMB

254 001 - 032 formed DMB/TF/TF/TRB/TRK/TS/TS/TS/TS/DMB

Lot 30883 = 40001 - 27
Lot 30884 = 40501 - 27

Lot 30898 = 40528 - 59
Lot 30899 = 40028 - 59

Certainly those were the planned formations, but I've a list of the first 253 sets on the Western in 1976 over a few months and if anything more sets were not in that formation than were. As well the odd 2+6 set, a few had two TRSB because of a lack of TRUK.

 

[43096]

I've seen reference that the original ten Mark 2F DBSO conversions (9701-9710) were converted under Lot No. 30937 but it was never referenced in the Platform 5 books. 9711-9714 don't seem to have had a new Lot No. for their conversion.

Lot 30937 shows as cancelled on the list I have. Maybe they realised the conversion shouldn’t have had one issued?

 

[Western Sunset]

Just as an aside, when the TGS vehicles were being constructed, the works numbers eg # 20 of lot xxxxx were shown as GTS 20 on the vehicle whilst in undercoat, rather than TGS.

 

[Commoner]

Certainly those were the planned formations, but I've a list of the first 253 sets on the Western in 1976 over a few months and if anything more sets were not in that formation than were. As well the odd 2+6 set, a few had two TRSB because of a lack of TRUK.

Hexagon789 I have sent you a PM. Hope you can help. Thanks.

 

[JohnW1]

8th May 1978 the summer timetable commenced and signalled the start of HST operation on the East Coast Main Line when six HST diagrams were introduced. The first twenty HST sets built for the East Coast Main Line (Class 254) were built with the luxury of two catering vehicles which if you look closely are the 3rd vehicle, Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen (TRUK) and the sixth vehicle Trailer Restaurant Second Buffet (TRSB).

254011_1978_05_Newark_A3_600dpi

The new order for East Coast Main Line express services in the form of 254011 (43076/77) heads south through Newark Northgate, 13th May 1978. Six days earlier on the 8th May 1978 the summer timetable commenced and signalled the start of HST operation on the East Coast Main Line when six HST...

www.flickr.com

 

[spw24]

I found this really useful webpage years ago now long gone but it listed all formations for HSTs when new might be of use the rest of the site if still there on an archive website.

HST Formations
Back to Multiple Unit Index


by Dave Root
last update 31 December 2001

Please email any corrections or additional information to me, it will be gratefully received and credited. Thanks are due to Tony Walmsley and David Russell for help with this page.

Note:

It is important to note that during the early years of the HSTs, there were a number of alterations made to planned formations. Some of these changes affected sets which had been in service for a short time, others those which were in build or on order. Therefore, it is difficult to show an accurate "original formation" for each set, since this may only have operated as such for a very brief time, and in some cases it is not confirmed whether certain sets actually operated in the intended formation before a change took effect.

The main alterations involved either catering vehicles or TGS vehicles. In the former case, it was realised early on that there was an overprovision of catering in the original formations, coupled with an underprovision of second class seating; catering vehicles were reallocated between sets to correct this, and the early sets received an additional new build TS to make up the deficiency. In the case of TGS vehicles, these were introduced around 1980 to provide better quality accommodation for the guard than that which had been provided in the power cars. Those sets which were already in traffic received a TGS in place of one TS.

What I have tried to do is to provide "representative" formations for each "batch", and describe any important changes which affected them in a footnote. It is only possible to say that most of the sets in each block have definitely operated in the formation given at some point in time.

Prototype Set 252001
252001 43001 41000 41001 41002 40500 42000 40000 42001 42002 43000

Sets 253001-253017
253001 43003 41003 41004 40501 42003 40001 42004 42005 43002
253002 43005 41005 41006 40502 42006 40002 42007 42008 43004
253003 43007 41007 41008 40503 42009 40003 42010 42011 43006
253004 43009 41009 41010 40504 42012 40004 42013 42014 43008
253005 43011 41011 41012 40505 42015 40005 42016 42017 43010
253006 43013 41013 41014 40506 42018 40006 42019 42020 43012
253007 43015 41015 41016 40507 42021 40007 42022 42023 43014
253008 43017 41017 41018 40508 42024 40008 42025 42026 43016
253009 43019 41019 41020 40509 42027 40009 42028 42029 43018
253010 43021 41021 41022 40510 42030 40010 42031 42032 43020
253011 43023 41023 41024 40511 42033 40011 42034 42035 43022
253012 43025 41025 41026 40512 42036 40012 42037 42038 43024
253013 43027 41027 41028 40513 42039 40013 42040 42041 43026
253014 43029 41029 41030 40514 42042 40014 42043 42044 43028
253015 43031 41031 41032 40515 42045 40015 42046 42047 43030
253016 43033 41033 41034 40516 42048 40016 42049 42050 43032
253017 43035 41035 41036 40517 42051 40017 42052 42053 43034

These sets were delivered in the originally planned formation with two catering vehicles and three second class vehicles. It was soon realised that this formation did not provide the ideal balance of accommodation. As a result, the TRUK vehicles (405xx) were soon removed and re-used in the new Class 254 sets being built for the Eastern Region. The TRSB (400xx) were moved to the position previously occupied by the TRUK, and the sets were made up to seven-car formation using new build TS 42084-42100. An early source (RCTS 1978) shows these positioned next to the DMB, but later sources show them next to the TRSB, so it is likely that the earlier reference may be an error.

Later, these sets received TGS vehicles 44001-44017 between the TS and DMB, and lost the additional TS (42084-42100) as a result.

Sets 253018-253027
253018 43037 41037 41038 40300 42101 42054 42055 42056 43036
253019 43039 41039 41040 40301 42102 42057 42058 42059 43038
253020 43041 41041 41042 40302 42103 42060 42061 42062 43040
253021 43043 41043 41044 40303 42104 42063 42064 42065 43042
253022 43045 41045 41046 40304 42105 42066 42067 42068 43044
253023 43047 41047 41048 40305 42106 42069 42070 42071 43046
253024 43049 41049 41050 40306 42107 42072 42073 42074 43048
253025 43051 41051 41052 40307 42108 42075 42076 42077 43050
253026 43053 41053 41054 40308 42109 42078 42079 42080 43052
253027 43055 41055 41056 40309 42110 42081 42082 42083 43054

It was originally planned that these sets should follow the same formation as the first seventeen, but when the plans were revised they received TRUB vehicles (403xx) which were adequate for the intended duties of both TRUK and TRSB. It is not known if any of these sets initially operated with TRUK and TRSB, or with TRSB only, before receiving a TRUB.

These sets later received TGS 44018-44027 between the TS and DMB, and lost TS 42101-42110 as a result.

Sets 253028-253040
253028 43125 41121 41122 40322 42251 42252 42253 42254 43126
253029 43127 41123 41124 40323 42255 42256 42257 42258 43128
253030 43129 41125 41126 40324 42259 42260 42261 42262 43130
253031 43131 41127 41128 40325 42263 42264 42265 42266 43132
253032 43133 41129 41130 40326 42267 42268 42269 42270 43134
253033 43135 41131 41132 40327 42271 42272 42273 42274 43136
253034 43137 41133 41134 40328 42275 42276 42277 42278 43138
253035 43139 41135 41136 40329 42279 42280 42281 42282 43140
253036 43141 41137 41138 40330 42283 42284 42285 42286 43142
253037 43143 41139 41140 40331 42287 42288 42289 42290 43144
253038 43145 41141 41142 40332 42291 42292 42293 42294 43146
253039 43147 41143 41144 40333 42295 42296 42297 42298 43148
253040 43149 41145 41146 40334 42299 42300 42301 42302 43150

These sets had the TS vehicles adjacent to the DMBs replaced by TGS 44028-44040 respectively. My sources differ as to whether 253040 operated with 42302 in the formation before receiving 44040 - this being around the time at which the introduction of TGSs "caught up" with the sets being built.

Sets 253041-253055
253041 43163 41147 40401 42254 42258 42262 42266 44000 43164
253042 43165 41148 40402 42270 42274 42278 42282 44062 43166
253043 43167 41159 40403 42286 42290 42294 42298 44065 43168
253044 43169 41160 40404 42302 42303 42304 42305 44068 43170
253045 43171 41161 40405 42084 42085 42086 42087 44069 43172
253046 43173 41162 40406 42088 42089 42090 42091 44072 43174
253047 43175 41163 40407 42092 42093 42094 42095 44076 43176
253048 43177 41164 40408 42096 42097 42098 42099 44081 43178
253049 43179 41165 40409 42100 42101 42102 42103 44082 43180
253050 43181 41166 40429 42104 42105 42106 42107 44084 43182
253051 43183 41170 40430 42108 42109 42110 42322 44087 43184
253052 43185 41171 40431 42306 42307 42308 42309 44088 43186
253053 43187 41167 40432 42310 42311 42312 42313 44089 43188
253054 43189 41168 40433 42314 42315 42316 42317 44090 43190
253055 43191 41169 40434 42318 42319 42320 42321 44091 43192

These sets, with only one first class vehicle for Cross Country services, utilised both displaced and new build TS, as well as spare vehicles which had originally been intended for an earlier planned 253041. These sets had TGS vehicles from new.

Sets 254001-254020
254001 43057 41057 41058 40501 42111 42112 40018 42113 42114 43056
254002 43059 41059 41060 40502 42115 42116 40019 42117 42118 43058
254003 43061 41061 41062 40503 42119 42120 40020 42121 42122 43060
254004 43063 41063 41064 40504 42123 42124 40021 42125 42126 43062
254005 43065 41065 41066 40505 42127 42128 40022 42129 42130 43064
254006 43067 41067 41068 40506 42131 42132 40023 42133 42134 43066
254007 43069 41069 41070 40507 42135 42136 40024 42137 42138 43068
254008 43071 41071 41072 40508 42139 42140 40025 42141 42142 43070
254009 43073 41073 41074 40509 42143 42144 40026 42145 42146 43072
254010 43075 41075 41076 40510 42147 42148 40027 42149 42150 43074
254011 43077 41077 41078 40511 42151 42152 40028 42153 42154 43076
254012 43079 41079 41080 40512 42155 42156 40029 42157 42158 43078
254013 43081 41081 41082 40513 42159 42160 40030 42161 42162 43080
254014 43083 41083 41084 40514 42163 42164 40031 42165 42166 43082
254015 43085 41085 41086 40515 42167 42168 40032 42169 42170 43084
254016 43087 41087 41088 40516 42171 42172 40033 42173 42174 43086
254017 43089 41089 41090 40517 42175 42176 40034 42177 42178 43088
254018 43091 41091 41092 40518 42179 42180 40035 42181 42182 43090
254019 43093 41093 41094 40519 42183 42184 40036 42185 42186 43092
254020 43095 41095 41096 40520 42187 42188 40037 42189 42190 43094

These sets had the TS vehicles adjacent to the DMBs replaced by TGS 44041-60 respectively. The catering vehicles in each set were remarshalled together at a different time.

Subsequently, 254012-254020 received TRUBs 40300-40308 respectively (these were displaced from WR sets by newer TRUBs) and the TRSBs were reused in other sets, whilst the TRUKs were ultimately converted for use elsewhere, or in one case to a lounge configuration for special use.

Further changes took place and few sets retained two catering vehicles beyond the mid 1980s.

Sets 254021-254032
254021 43097 41097 41098 40310 42191 42192 42193 42194 42195 43096
254022 43099 41099 41100 40311 42196 42197 42198 42199 42200 43098
254023 43101 41101 41102 40312 42201 42202 42203 42204 42205 43100
254024 43103 41103 41104 40313 42206 42207 42208 42209 42210 43102
254025 43105 41105 41106 40314 42211 42212 42213 42214 42215 43104
254026 43107 41107 41108 40315 42216 42217 42218 42219 42220 43106
254027 43109 41109 41110 40316 42221 42222 42223 42224 42225 43108
254028 43111 41111 41112 40317 42226 42227 42228 42229 42230 43110
254029 43113 41113 41114 40318 42231 42232 42233 42234 42235 43112
254030 43115 41115 41116 40319 42236 42237 42238 42239 42240 43114
254031 43117 41117 41118 40320 42241 42242 42243 42244 42245 43116
254032 43119 41119 41120 40321 42246 42247 42248 42249 42250 43118

These sets had the TS vehicles adjacent to the DMB replaced by TGS 44061/3/4/6/7/70/1/3/4/5/7/8 respectively.

Sets 254033-254037
254033 43154 41149 41150 40339 42162 42166 42170 42174 44079 43153
254034 43156 41151 41152 40340 42178 42182 42186 42190 44080 43155
254035 43158 41153 41154 40341 42195 42200 42205 42210 44083 43157
254036 43160 41155 41156 40342 42215 42220 42225 42230 44085 43159
254037 43162 41157 41158 40343 42235 42240 42245 42250 44086 43161

These sets utilised TS vehicles displaced by TGS; they were originally planned to use the lower numbered ones which in the event are thought to have remained spare until used in the sets referred to below as 254044-254046. It is believed that 254033-254037 entered service with the TGS already in the formation.

Sets 254038-254043
254038 253027
254039 253022 40338
254040 253023 40344
254041 253024 40345
254042 253025 40346
254043 253026 40347

These sets were transferred from the Western Region to the Eastern Region. The original set number is shown along with the buffet car present in 1984. They remained as 7-car sets as there were no spare TS at the time, but a further batch of TS was later built to augment these and other 7-car sets.

It is not known if these set numbers were actually used; by 1984 the Eastern Region referred to them as "SET 38" etc., and set numbers were no longer displayed on units.

Sets 254044-254046
254044 43193 41172 41173 40348 42118 42122 42126 44092 43194
254045 43195 41174 41175 40349 42130 42134 42138 44093 43196
254046 43197 41176 41177 40350 42146 42150 42154 44094 43198

These were the last sets to be introduced. They used the last of the displaced TS, including three of the TF which were converted from TS. The other three TF were converted from the prototype Class 252 trailers. Note that they were only seven cars long (there were no more spare TS).

It is not known if these set numbers were actually used; by 1984 the Eastern Region referred to them as "SET 44" etc., and set numbers were no longer displayed on units.

Sets 254047-254049
254047 253019 40335
254048 253020 40336
254049 253021 40337

As in the case of 254038 etc., these were sets transferred from the Western Region to the Eastern Region.

It is not known if these set numbers were actually used; by 1984 the Eastern Region referred to them as "SET 47" etc., and set numbers were no longer displayed on units.

Back to Multiple Unit Ind

 

[Western Sunset]

A few random unit formations from July 1979. Note I've not included the regional prefix letter unless out of region. The * symbol indicates the kitchen or buffet end of the vehicle.

WR
43006 41007 41008 *40003 42011 42086 42010 42009 43007
43021 41021 41022 40010* 42093 42030 42031 42032 43020
43028 41029 41030 *40014 42097 42042 42043 42044 43029
43014 41015 41016 *40007 42090 42021 42022 42023 43120
43018 41043 41044 40307* 42100 42064 42053 42063 43042
43016 41017 41018 40303* 42091 42024 42025 42026 43017

ER/ScR
43098 41099 41100 40311* 42199 42196 42197 42198 42200 43099
43089 41089 41090 *40517 42176 42233 40034* 42177 42178 43088
43071 41071 41072 *40508 42139 42140 40025* 42141 42142 43070
43064 41075 41076 40510* 42147 42148 40027* 42149 42150 43078
43076 41077 41078 *40511 42151 42152 40028* 42153 42154 43077
43079 W41132 41110 40316* 42221 42222 42223 42224 42225 43107

 

[Helvellyn]

I found this really useful webpage years ago now long gone but it listed all formations for HSTs when new might be of use the rest of the site if still there on an archive website.

HST Formations
Back to Multiple Unit Index


by Dave Root
last update 31 December 2001

Please email any corrections or additional information to me, it will be gratefully received and credited. Thanks are due to Tony Walmsley and David Russell for help with this page.

Note:

It is important to note that during the early years of the HSTs, there were a number of alterations made to planned formations. Some of these changes affected sets which had been in service for a short time, others those which were in build or on order. Therefore, it is difficult to show an accurate "original formation" for each set, since this may only have operated as such for a very brief time, and in some cases it is not confirmed whether certain sets actually operated in the intended formation before a change took effect.

The main alterations involved either catering vehicles or TGS vehicles. In the former case, it was realised early on that there was an overprovision of catering in the original formations, coupled with an underprovision of second class seating; catering vehicles were reallocated between sets to correct this, and the early sets received an additional new build TS to make up the deficiency. In the case of TGS vehicles, these were introduced around 1980 to provide better quality accommodation for the guard than that which had been provided in the power cars. Those sets which were already in traffic received a TGS in place of one TS.

What I have tried to do is to provide "representative" formations for each "batch", and describe any important changes which affected them in a footnote. It is only possible to say that most of the sets in each block have definitely operated in the formation given at some point in time.

Sets 254038-254043
254038 253027
254039 253022 40338
254040 253023 40344
254041 253024 40345
254042 253025 40346
254043 253026 40347

These sets were transferred from the Western Region to the Eastern Region. The original set number is shown along with the buffet car present in 1984. They remained as 7-car sets as there were no spare TS at the time, but a further batch of TS was later built to augment these and other 7-car sets.

It is not known if these set numbers were actually used; by 1984 the Eastern Region referred to them as "SET 38" etc., and set numbers were no longer displayed on units.

Sets 254044-254046
254044 43193 41172 41173 40348 42118 42122 42126 44092 43194
254045 43195 41174 41175 40349 42130 42134 42138 44093 43196
254046 43197 41176 41177 40350 42146 42150 42154 44094 43198

These were the last sets to be introduced. They used the last of the displaced TS, including three of the TF which were converted from TS. The other three TF were converted from the prototype Class 252 trailers. Note that they were only seven cars long (there were no more spare TS).

It is not known if these set numbers were actually used; by 1984 the Eastern Region referred to them as "SET 44" etc., and set numbers were no longer displayed on units.

Sets 254047-254049
254047 253019 40335
254048 253020 40336
254049 253021 40337

As in the case of 254038 etc., these were sets transferred from the Western Region to the Eastern Region.

It is not known if these set numbers were actually used; by 1984 the Eastern Region referred to them as "SET 47" etc., and set numbers were no longer displayed on units.

Back to Multiple Unit Ind

Thank you for linking and posting that. It's raised a query though as it seems that the first six WR sets (253022-253027) transferred to the ER for MML services in 1982 before the final three sets had been formed. The final three (of eighteen) NE-SW sets would have been 253056-253058 but there is no mention of this and just a statement that they entered service as 254044-254046, with three TS vehicles (42114/42142/42158) converted to TFs (41175-41177), which would give an initial nine 2+7 sets for MML services.

So, did 253056-253058 ever operate as intended or did they actually enter service as 254044-254046? If the latter I wonder if this could be a possible explanation for the "missing" Lot No. of 30965 - if it was known that three TS vehicles were to be converted to TFs (41175-41177) someone initially planned to allocate the conversion a Lot No. in a similar way to the five prototype vehicles being converted to TFs (41170-41174) under Lot No. 30967 but it ultimately never happened. Pure speculation on my part I know!

 

[theblackwatch]

Thank you for linking and posting that. It's raised a query though as it seems that the first six WR sets (253022-253027) transferred to the ER for MML services in 1982 before the final three sets had been formed. The final three (of eighteen) NE-SW sets would have been 253056-253058 but there is no mention of this and just a statement that they entered service as 254044-254046, with three TS vehicles (42114/42142/42158) converted to TFs (41175-41177), which would give an initial nine 2+7 sets for MML services.

So, did 253056-253058 ever operate as intended or did they actually enter service as 254044-254046? If the latter I wonder if this could be a possible explanation for the "missing" Lot No. of 30965 - if it was known that three TS vehicles were to be converted to TFs (41175-41177) someone initially planned to allocate the conversion a Lot No. in a similar way to the five prototype vehicles being converted to TFs (41170-41174) under Lot No. 30967 but it ultimately never happened. Pure speculation on my part I know!

I am 99% confident that the three sets concerned never ran in 'NESW' formation - happy to be proved wrong though! One thing I also think, but am not quite as confident about, is that 253053-055 initially ran with 41172-41174 in their formations, with 41167-41169 replacing them soon after.

I'm not sure the 'conversions' of the three TSs to 41175-41177 even involved a works visit - they may have been done at Neville Hill? (If so, perhaps that is why a Lot Number was de-issued, it was realised they didn't need works attention?).

 

[Helvellyn]

I am 99% confident that the three sets concerned never ran in 'NESW' formation - happy to be proved wrong though! One thing I also think, but am not quite as confident about, is that 253053-055 initially ran with 41172-41174 in their formations, with 41167-41169 replacing them soon after.

I'm not sure the 'conversions' of the three TSs to 41175-41177 even involved a works visit - they may have been done at Neville Hill? (If so, perhaps that is why a Lot Number was de-issued, it was realised they didn't need works attention?).

Looking through HST Silver Jubilee (Colin J Marsden) all he states was that three NE-SW sets were released for MML duties by tightening up diagrams, along with six WR sets and one ER set. The NE-SW sets had to have a TS converted but it looks like they maybe didn't enter service beforehand. In the same book the description of the original interiors implies that new carpets, seats and tables would be required along with curtains and new divider screens at the coach ends (in the TS they affix to the luggage rack side bulkhead; in a TF the toilet side bulkhead and are also slightly wider). If the sets were formed up at Litchurch Lane I wonder if that is where the TS coaches were converted? They would have had to have been stored somewhere after removal from ER sets when the TGS vehicles were inserted.

Incidentally, the same book mentions the conversion of the prototype vehicles to TFs and it seems that some strengthening of the frames was required, rewiring, new external doors and removal of buffers. Marsden states the coaches were stripped back to the bare shell, and notes that this makes retention of the original style windows, lighting gondolas and mid-coach partitions even odder.

 

[43096]

I dug out an old “Modern Railways Pictorial” on HSTs that I acquired second hand for about 50p a few years back. It must date from around 1983 as it has the set formations from late 1982 shown. I’ll try and upload the formations later...

 

[APT618S]

Interesting stuff here. Is another aspect that the way govt funding approval for spend worked for BR was that is was in annual or so phases - so the XC (NE-SW) HSTs were towards the end of the production and at early stages of planning for a fleet BR would not have known if the Govt (HM Treasury / DfT) would approve the build of HST for that route anyway.

IIRC the size of the fleet was scaled back when govt did not agree to BRs full order request - prob in part down to the post 1979/80 economic downturn.

Just managed to dig out my copy of the 1978 RCTS Coaching Stock Book and this lists 40 sets each with 1 TF in the formation on order which is presumably the full order BR wanted.
The final set formation being listed as 43232+41188+40375+42502/3/4/5/6+43231 with Power Cars 43233-236 as Spares. The TS's get into the high numbers due to no plans for the TGS's at this stage.

 

[Helvellyn]

Looking through HST Silver Jubilee (Colin J Marsden) all he states was that three NE-SW sets were released for MML duties by tightening up diagrams, along with six WR sets and one ER set.

I also wonder if the ER set released for MML duties was 254013? This would explain the availability of TRUK 40513 for conversion to the Executive Saloon given that initially all the MML sets operated in 2+7 formation (so technically 253s!). I assume the TRSB, 40030, would have been swapped with a TRUB from the WR.

 

[Helvellyn]

Just managed to dig out my copy of the 1978 RCTS Coaching Stock Book and this lists 40 sets each with 1 TF in the formation on order which is presumably the full order BR wanted.
The final set formation being listed as 43232+41188+40375+42502/3/4/5/6+43231 with Power Cars 43233-236 as Spares. The TS's get into the high numbers due to no plans for the TGS's at this stage.

That is interesting because all the references I had seen were for 36 sets for CrossCountry services plus an additional seven for ECML routes. BR submitted the business case for the first tranche of 18 CrossCountry sets alongside the ECML request. The former was approved but after a lot of back-and-forth the latter was reduced to four sets. With the country in recession and the difficulty getting the orders approved this is partly what drove termination of the programme at 95 sets.

 

[43096]

That is interesting because all the references I had seen were for 36 sets for CrossCountry services plus an additional seven for ECML routes. BR submitted the business case for the first tranche of 18 CrossCountry sets alongside the ECML request. The former was approved but after a lot of back-and-forth the latter was reduced to four sets. With the country in recession and the difficulty getting the orders approved this is partly what drove termination of the programme at 95 sets.

The original plan (dream?) was:
27 - Western batch 1
42 - ECML
16 - Western batch 2
36 - CrossCountry
10 - Midland Main Line
30 - Trans-Pennine and Scottish internal.