I wasted £8 today

[PR1Berske]

Here's another thread on buying tickets (and those who may feel like not doing)

I walked into Preston station at about 11am today, bought a return to Lancaster on the ticket machine, for which I was charged £8.

I hopped onto the next Virgin, 11-carriage I believe, I even got a seat(!!!!), and enjoyed sitting down for the fifteen-minute journey. Lovely. Nice. Very good, no reason to pay £4 for the wi-fi or anything like that.

On arrival at Lancaster, off I potted, wandered into the city to watch the footy after some ales (it's Non League Day, after all). Once the game was finished I jaunted back to the station, waited twenty odd minutes for a delayed Virgin back to Preston. got a seat again (!!!!) and am now here

Not once on the train, not once at either station, not once at a bridge, entry point, ticket office, footbridge or vestibule, did I get challenged for my ticket.

So I could have walked on and off the train without paying. For all the good my eight quid has done for Virgin specifically, I may as well have not been a passenger.

The question for the forum is - given that I wasn't checked at any point before, during or after the journey, is it any wonder why people take their chances not buying a ticket ? Do you agree (okay, two questions) that I wasted my £8?

 

[Eagle]

Yes, you "wasted" £8 by not breaking the law.

don't even know where to begin on that...

 

[90019]

So you didn't get your ticket checked on a 15 minute journey on an 11 carriage train?


I'm shocked!

 

[NSE]

If I could have back all the money for trips made where I haven't needed my ticket/oyster yet still bought one/touched in and out, I'd have enough to buy the trains I travel on.
Yes I feel a little bit annoyed no one has checked my ticket, but I do it cause its the law.

 

[Trog]

You did the right thing, virtue is its own reward.

 

[wintonian]

In that case I regularly waste £5, £10 £15 or even £40.

You used the service so why did you waste £8?

IMO any other non paying passengers saved the coast of a SOS/ SDS or the amount of any fine/ compensation handed out by a court.

Besides I would rather feel morally absolved than have to deal with the guilt.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

..and you have a clear conscience too cocker.

 

[Greenback]

Quite right Wintonian, the money has not been wasted.

Just look at all the threads from those who are fearing prosecution, a fine, a criminal record, or an out of court settlement for a couple of hundred quid.

 

[185]

Rather pay 8 quid than risk 400 plus cost and crim record

 

[NLC1072]

I hate these people who think they shouldn't pay if their ticket is not checked.

This is the problem with service based industries, they are too easy to negate paying.

Just because you are not walking away with goods does not mean you have not justify you not paying your fare.

Do you go into the hairdressers and because you do not take anything away with you, do you still refuse to pay? No, you have recieved a service and thus you pay.

There is no other way about it I'm affraid, not paying for your journey is breaking the law much the same as it is doing it to any other company.

NLC1072

 

[66736WW]

I wouldnt get any ideas about not getting a ticket next time because its sods law they will collar ya....

 

[MCR247]

I don't really see how you have wasted it?

You bought an £8 ticket for a return journey, and completed said return journey?

 

[TTI]

Virgin make it easy for the chancers with their "open station" policy. The Lancaster-Crewe corridor revenue is shared through the Rail Settlement Plan with most, so I am told, going to (what now is) Northern. Inherited they did, in effect, from Regional Railways North West, et al

This is why Virgin concentrate any revenue protection at the Euston end!

I do recall Virgin did have displaced staff "moved" to RPI teams who used to go up & down between Crewe & Preston and took up to £1,000 per day "on board". To save on headcount, they've long gone!

Also, as VT Train Managers are on 2.5% its hardly motivational.

Morally it is wrong, but Virgin won't spend any capital expenditure on ticket gates/extra headcount in the ticket office/excess windows.

The next franchise specifies some 21? stations must go "gated". Some will be simple and 'cheap' to do, eg Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan but others are multi-exit affairs.

Anyway, Virgin trains have always been known as "free". Ask any of the Lancaster-Preston students & commuters. Season tickets? Not worth it!

 

[Goatboy]

Why should we even NEED constant ticket checks? I travelled on Metrorail services across Europe this summer and never once did I encounter a gateline, a ticket barrier or a guard on the train. I had my ticket spot checked - once - by an undercover inspector. And thats over about 4 different countries.

You didn't waste £8 - you bought a service for £8 and you used it. In a developed and decent society it's not 'terrible' when somebody doesn't make you prove you paid.

 

[WestCoast]

You purchased the correct ticket for your trip and then completed the journeys you paid for. Nothing wasted there.

Ticket checking on Virgin's shorter-distance segments can be rare due to length of the trains and other factors. Especially so during Preston-Lancaster/Wigan because on London/Birmingham-Scotland services there is often a staff changeover at Preston.

In general, ticket inspections are more rigorous and frequent in the UK than other European countries, inspections at mainline rail stations are unheard of on the continent for example. Stricter penalties tend to the be the deterrent.

 

[wintonian]

I hate these people who think they shouldn't pay if their ticket is not checked.

This is the problem with service based industries, they are too easy to negate paying.

Just because you are not walking away with goods does not mean you have not justify you not paying your fare.

Do you go into the hairdressers and because you do not take anything away with you, do you still refuse to pay? No, you have recieved a service and thus you pay.

The problem here is that some one atualy asks you to pay.

I'll try another analogy that I expect will be just as flawed but nonetheless I'll try with; walking out of a supermarket with goods you have not paid for because no one asked you to pay on the way out. However it is possible that someone owning a blue light, wearing back and owing their ow handcuffs (for reasons other than personal amusement) might ask you some way down the road.

 

[dk1]

When Virgin do barrier checks at Wigan NW or Warrington BQ they always seem to be selling tickets from arriving passengers & i have witnessed several people walk into the station, see the RPIs & walk off again. Obviously intending passengers who are not willing to become customers.

 

[wintonian]

Virgin make it easy for the chancers with their "open station" policy. The Lancaster-Crewe corridor revenue is shared through the Rail Settlement Plan with most, so I am told, going to (what now is) Northern. Inherited they did, in effect, from Regional Railways North West, et al

This is why Virgin concentrate any revenue protection at the Euston end!

I do recall Virgin did have displaced staff "moved" to RPI teams who used to go up & down between Crewe & Preston and took up to £1,000 per day "on board". To save on headcount, they've long gone!

Also, as VT Train Managers are on 2.5% its hardly motivational.

Morally it is wrong, but Virgin won't spend any capital expenditure on ticket gates/extra headcount in the ticket office/excess windows.

The next franchise specifies some 21? stations must go "gated". Some will be simple and 'cheap' to do, eg Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan but others are multi-exit affairs.

Anyway, Virgin trains have always been known as "free". Ask any of the Lancaster-Preston students & commuters. Season tickets? Not worth it!

So if they gate Euston what will that do to the theoretical practice of being able to sell available sleeper tickets on-board?

 

[MCR247]

Firstly, shouldn't be too much trouble, for the lowland at least, as I doubt they'll be manned that late.

Secondly, it'll just be the same as GC/HT in Kings Cross. Just asked to be let through

 

[NLC1072]

Maybe big signs just before the barriers/platform entrances asking "have you paid for your journey before you travel?" and at station exits a sign asking "have you paid for your journey today?" and I'm thinking of 2ft high bold type.

The problem here is that some one atualy asks you to pay.

I'll try another analogy that I expect will be just as flawed but nonetheless I'll try with; walking out of a supermarket with goods you have not paid for because no one asked you to pay on the way out. However it is possible that someone owning a blue light, wearing back and owing their ow handcuffs (for reasons other than personal amusement) might ask you some way down the road.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Not once on the train, not once at either station, not once at a bridge, entry point, ticket office, footbridge or vestibule, did I get challenged for my ticket.

So I could have walked on and off the train without paying. For all the good my eight quid has done for Virgin specifically, I may as well have not been a passenger.

So what?

The contract is to be conveyed from A to B.
You paid for it; the Company carried you; the contract has been completed.

Checking is immaterial, though we should all be pleased to know that checks are carried out regularly. Checks on the brakes, checks on the water, checks on the tickets, checks on the lights, and dozens of other checks. And they will all be performed at times which are appropriate to the assessed risks that they are checking for. What has that schedule got to do with you?

FWIW I travelled a few hundred miles this week without my ticket being checked. But the Companies know that by performing a few checks at semi-randomised times when the risks of fare evasion are highest, then they'd achieve the highest Cost - Benefit ratio of ticket checking.
There's no way I could consider that any of the money I paid for my tickets was 'wasted'. In fact I feel I received very good value indeed!

Do you agree (okay, two questions) that I wasted my £8?

A very silly question if I may say so.

 

[the sniper]

I wasted a couple of minutes on my way home from work the other day by not driving at 130mph down the motorway. Instead I stuck to 70mph, which was pointless as I didn't see one police car during my journey...

Seriously though, I can't believe you asked that question on this forum.

 

[Eagle]

Virgin make it easy for the chancers with their "open station" policy.

Something I recall First wanted to change.

 

[12CSVT]

I wasted a couple of minutes on my way home from work the other day by not driving at 130mph down the motorway. Instead I stuck to 70mph, which was pointless as I didn't see one police car during my journey...

Seriously though, I can't believe you asked that question on this forum.

But there may have been ANPR cameras on the stretch of road you were driving.

 

[merlodlliw]

Quite right Wintonian, the money has not been wasted.

Just look at all the threads from those who are fearing prosecution, a fine, a criminal record, or an out of court settlement for a couple of hundred quid.

Out of court settlements are more common, the toc gets the money without the hassle, In North Wales driving over the 30mph(say 37MPH) limit usually gives a choice, attend a half day course,cost up to £100 depends on speed or go to court & be fined as a criminal with points

 

[90019]

But there may have been ANPR cameras on the stretch of road you were driving.

Which wouldn't make a difference if you were speeding, as they only read the plate to check it against various databases and to alert the authorities to cars with markers against them.

 

[tbtc]

You purchased the correct ticket for your trip and then completed the journeys you paid for. Nothing wasted there

Exactly how I see it.

Person pays for service. Person gets that service. Why are we even having this argument?

Of course there should be more ticket checks, but Virgin don't seem interested in the "nitty gritty" of journeys that don't involve London/ First Class - a provincial trip like Preston to Lancaster is under their radar.

Hopefully the next company to run the WCML franchise will take more of an interest in these things - I see far too many mentions of how busy the Virgin services north of Crewe are - no wonder they are busy when people think they can get away without paying.

 

[calc7]

Virgin might not do as bad as people think out of this "open stations" policy. Their SVRs are extremely reasonably priced IMO (London-Manchester £74 versus £94 for the SSR from London to Leeds).

But their Anytime Singles/Returns are extremely inflated.

Stinging people for an Anytime (Day) Single occasionally versus the usually unrestricted and so equally valid Off-Peak Returns might be quite fruitful.

Of course on extremely short journeys like PRE-LAN, a revenue block/barrier is most effective.

 

[yorkie]

The question for the forum is - given that I wasn't checked at any point before, during or after the journey, is it any wonder why people take their chances not buying a ticket ? Do you agree (okay, two questions) that I wasted my £8?

I am sure that most car owners do not get their VED checked on the majority of journeys they make. Does that mean that they wasted their money too? What if their insurance or driving license isn't checked either?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So if they gate Euston what will that do to the theoretical practice of being able to sell available sleeper tickets on-board?

I don't understand the issue? There is no requirement to be in possession of a ticket at any gateline if you are boarding a train that the Train Operator is happy to sell tickets on board. If there is a gateline in operation you just tell them which train you are boarding (e.g. at York station when races are on if I am getting GC, I tell them that and they let me through).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I am sure that most car owners do not get their VED checked on the majority of journeys they make. . . .

I'm not sure that that analogy with a statutory licence is a very appropriate analogy with a contracted service, but if you did want to compare the OP's view of the provison of a service with "checking" validity, then wouldn't a more powerful analogy be with more critical service providers?
e.g. A Hospital Accident & Emergency Unit refusing to treat the critically injured OP until (s)he provided their NHS Number, or,
e.g. A Police telephone response centre refusing to react to the OP's claim of violent attack until (s)he provided documentary evidence of citizenship.

Checking the validity of a contract is quite independant from receiving the benefits of contracted rights.

We might expect a simple operation, such as a cinema, to operate a system of ticket checking, but, as I explained above, allocating resources to an unneccessary function such as ticket-checking will be based on an informed and adopted Cost-Benefit Analysis; at times it will be beneficial, at times it will not, and for most of the time, it will be quite enough to create the public awareness that a check might be undertaken at any unexpected time.