Ideas for alternative service provision on the sub-surface lines.

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Requeststop

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This weekend, back in the UK for the first time since the changes to the Circle line to the "Y"or "frying pan" configuration, I have found out just have difficult it is for passengers to endude the ride from Paddington southwards, especially for those having to change at Edgware Road, with youngsters, baggage, and shopping etc., let alone physical difficulties.

Whoever thought that ending the service at Edgware Road needs to be put against the wall, blindfolded, given their last cigarette, and made to walk over the bridge between platforms carrying all passengers baggage, screaming children, and the assisting all the elderly and infirm.

OK, I can understand the principle of operation of the "Y" configuration, but surely it it not beyond the imagination of the planners to let 3/4 services do an "OY" service in that every third or fourth train starts at Hammersmith return to Edgware Road and complete another circle back to Edgeware before returning back to Hammersmith?

To my mind Edgware road is just not suitable for the "Y" plan. This weekend the Circle/District change-over just did not work.
 
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Mojo

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I've moved this thread to the correct forum.

This weekend, back in the UK for the first time since the changes to the Circle line to the "Y"or "frying pan" configuration, I have found out just have difficult it is for passengers to endude the ride from Paddington southwards, especially for those having to change at Edgware Road, with youngsters, baggage, and shopping etc., let alone physical difficulties.

Whoever thought that ending the service at Edgware Road needs to be put against the wall, blindfolded, given their last cigarette, and made to walk over the bridge between platforms carrying all passengers baggage, screaming children, and the assisting all the elderly and infirm.
A bit harsh; given the fact that for the vast majority of passengers on the Circle and Hammersmith line, the service is vastly improved.

When travelling on the inner circle there is cross-platform interchange with the District line, and when travelling on the outer circle via High Street Kensington there is interchange with Eastbound Hammersmith and Circle line via Baker Street and Kings +.

OK, I can understand the principle of operation of the "Y" configuration, but surely it it not beyond the imagination of the planners to let 3/4 services do an "OY" service in that every third or fourth train starts at Hammersmith return to Edgware Road and complete another circle back to Edgeware before returning back to Hammersmith?
I am not sure what you mean by this?

Are you are suggesting that services run Hammersmith - Edgware Rd (reverse) - High Street Kensington - the City - Edgware Road - Hammersmith? What is the advantage in this, other than providing the tiny number of customers travelling from Royal Oak to Hammersmith a direct service to Notting Hill and Kensington?

Or are you suggesting that services run Hammersmith - Edgware Road - the City - High Street Kensington - Edgware Road (reverse) - Hammersmith? Again, what is the purpose of this?
 

NY Yankee

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The Circle line doesn't make sense. If you're at Aldgate and need to get to Bayswater, you have to choose between taking the Circle line via Victoria and Westminster or via Kings Cross. Can't they just eliminate the Circle line and run extra trains on the District line and Hammersmith line? The Circle line has this circuitous route. There are various north-south lines (Northern, Jubilee) that make it redundant.
 

yorkie

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This weekend, back in the UK for the first time since the changes to the Circle line to the "Y"or "frying pan" configuration, I have found out just have difficult it is for passengers to endude the ride from Paddington southwards, especially for those having to change at Edgware Road, with youngsters, baggage, and shopping etc., let alone physical difficulties.
Paddington southwards? that would be the Bakerloo line. The Circle line goes west initially out of Paddington.

What journey did you have in mind? Nearly all journeys are improved now.
Whoever thought that ending the service at Edgware Road needs to be put against the wall, blindfolded, given their last cigarette, and made to walk over the bridge between platforms carrying all passengers baggage, screaming children, and the assisting all the elderly and infirm.
Actually the terminating Circle trains heading east are cross-platform normally. It is the District trains that involve going up the stairs, but you can avoid the stairs by taking a Circle train (or changing at somewhere like High St Kensington)

What's the journey?
OK, I can understand the principle of operation of the "Y" configuration, but surely it it not beyond the imagination of the planners to let 3/4 services do an "OY" service in that every third or fourth train starts at Hammersmith return to Edgware Road and complete another circle back to Edgeware before returning back to Hammersmith?

To my mind Edgware road is just not suitable for the "Y" plan. This weekend the Circle/District change-over just did not work.
It's a '6' not a 'Y', there is nowhere else suitable (unless you spend many millions!) and I cannot figure out what your alternative suggestion is.
 

12CSVT

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Whoever thought that ending the service at Edgware Road needs to be put against the wall, blindfolded, given their last cigarette, and made to walk over the bridge between platforms carrying all passengers baggage, screaming children, and the assisting all the elderly and infirm.

QUOTE]

That was Boris Johnston who thought that one up. And I can think of a thousand other reasons why he should be made to take a long walk from a short plank.

Anyway, I totally agree that the circle line has been totally ruined - especially as there is no ticket office on the Hammersmith side of Paddington station.

Maybe combining the circle and H&C lines (Hammersmith - Paddington - Kings Cross - Liverpool Street - Tower Hill - Victoria - Bayswater - Paddington - Kings Cross - Liverpool Street - Aldgate East - Barking) would have been a better idea.
 

317 forever

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Maybe the Circle, District and Hammersmith & City Lines will be revamped ca 2018 when they are all operating S class stock? It would be harder at this stage as the main District Line service operated D class but the other lines C class.
 

causton

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Indeed, although it is said there are no initial changes to service patterns you could have for example Barking - Tower Hill - Victoria - Bayswater - Baker Street - King's Cross - Liverpool Street - Barking, and Hammersmith - Baker Street - King's Cross - Liverpool Street - Tower Hill - Victoria - Earls Court - western District terminus (Olympia? ;) ) and a whole load of other wacky destinations!
 

Mojo

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The Circle line doesn't make sense. If you're at Aldgate and need to get to Bayswater, you have to choose between taking the Circle line via Victoria and Westminster or via Kings Cross.
The only direct service is via Victoria. Makes perfect sense to me.
Can't they just eliminate the Circle line and run extra trains on the District line and Hammersmith line? The Circle line has this circuitous route. There are various north-south lines (Northern, Jubilee) that make it redundant.
The Circle line is perfect, sensible and useful for many journeys such as St James's Park to Liverpool Street or Paddington. I am not sure what the advantage is in running extra services instead of the very useful Circle line.
That was Boris Johnston who thought that one up. And I can think of a thousand other reasons why he should be made to take a long walk from a short plank.
People obviously think the Mayor is responsible for more 'initiatives' than he actually is! Actually, it was those who work for London Underground who came up with the idea.
Anyway, I totally agree that the circle line has been totally ruined - especially as there is no ticket office on the Hammersmith side of Paddington station.
Paddington (Suburban) station is still a building site. When the Paddington Integrated Project is complete (a joint project with Crossrail), there will be a new booking hall at this station.

I disagree with your comment that the line ''has been totally ruined.'' For the overwhelming majority of customers the service is much better than it is before; especially those travelling Eastbound from Paddington who now no longer need to gamble with services from two different stations.
Maybe combining the circle and H&C lines (Hammersmith - Paddington - Kings Cross - Liverpool Street - Tower Hill - Victoria - Bayswater - Paddington - Kings Cross - Liverpool Street - Aldgate East - Barking) would have been a better idea.
At present during daytimes, the Hammersmith & City runs every 10 Min, as does the Circle. How would both services be combined to ensure that no section of the line loses out, but also bearing in mind the limits of capacity and rolling stock?
 

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When all modernisation is complete, and the Circle section is fully upgraded, notwithstanding any potential stock limitations would there be any value in running through trains from somewhere like Kenny O to Moorgate (taking advantage of the little-used bays there)? This would at least allow some through running between the Euston Road section of the Circle and the (admittedly quieter) western side. Assuming the line can take a 2½ service everywhere, the current plan of three lines each running every ten minutes could easily slot a fourth service in.

Irrespective of this, I have to disagree that the Circle is useless. What we have now isn't as good as it could be, but once the S7 stock is introduced hopefully the regular problems on the line will become less of an issue.
 

bb21

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There is an argument for the Circle not to be an incomplete circle hence one alternative is to run the H&C as it is but run the Circle as Hammersmith - Paddington (H&C) - Liverpool Street - Tower Hill - Victoria - Paddington (District) - Liverpool Street - Barking, however this would depend on capacity on the line as I believe that east of Aldgate East the line is at capacity due to the frequency of the District so it might be difficult fitting the Circle in. Another alternative is to terminate the Circle at Aldgate rather than Barking but that would still be hampered by capacity over the shared section with the Met due to the frequency of the Met during rush hours.

I think the existing arrangement is a good compromise. There is never going to be a solution that would please everyone.
 

jopsuk

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What about Moorgate? Would it be possible/practical to extend the Edgware Road terminators (Maybe just Circle line ones) to Moorgate? Could be confusing though.
 

Dstock7080

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What about Moorgate? Would it be possible/practical to extend the Edgware Road terminators (Maybe just Circle line ones) to Moorgate? Could be confusing though.
The reason Edgware Road is used, is because of the capacity issue between Baker Street-Aldgate/Aldgate East.
Presently a 2-2½ service operates squeezing MET/H&C/Circle along the same track, to say "extend the Edgware Roads to the empty Moorgate" is a simple phrase to say but very difficult to achieve in reality.
 

bicbasher

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The Circle line doesn't make sense. If you're at Aldgate and need to get to Bayswater, you have to choose between taking the Circle line via Victoria and Westminster or via Kings Cross. Can't they just eliminate the Circle line and run extra trains on the District line and Hammersmith line? The Circle line has this circuitous route. There are various north-south lines (Northern, Jubilee) that make it redundant.

Just take the Circle to Royal Oak towards Hammersmith, Bayswater station is 5 mins walk from there.
 

jopsuk

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The ideal for the Circle would be for the whole line to be 4-track, with a dedicated pair of tracks for Circle services running just the loop, with no flat crossings with other services. Could even then have Met/H&C/District services skipping some stops.
 

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My idea would be withdraw the Circle Line completly, divert the H&C line at Liverpool Street to Edgeware Road via Victoria, extend some District Line trains[Edgeware Road Branch]to Barking replacing the H&C Line District Line ER Branch will need a bit of retiming but think it may be possible to do.
 

DavyCrocket

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My idea would be withdraw the Circle Line completly, divert the H&C line at Liverpool Street to Edgeware Road via Victoria, extend some District Line trains[Edgeware Road Branch]to Barking replacing the H&C Line District Line ER Branch will need a bit of retiming but think it may be possible to do.

Stations such as Earl's Court then have congestion issues, not just platforms but the passageways and steps to them.
 

SS4

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No idea how feasible the following would be

  • Hammersmith to Aldgate (via Kings Cross) be given over to the H&C (presumably the circle could stop and reverse in the through platforms which would become terminating platforms - if not convert them to termini.) Perhaps then one could run the Met semi-fast directly to Baker Street
  • Edgware Road to Wimbledon via Earl's Court to become a wholly new line
  • Close Olympia and have it as Overground only
  • Gloucester Road to Tower Hill absorbed into the district and track relaid to extend services to/from Earl's Court

Away from the circle
  • Split the Northern line and give one branch a new name
  • Show walking interchanges between tube stations on the tube map, especially where OSIs exist
  • Publish a list of cross platform interchanges on the TfL site
 

yorkie

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No idea how feasible the following would be

  • Hammersmith to Aldgate (via Kings Cross) be given over to the H&C
Hammersmith to Aldgate is a joint H&C/Circle, it's just some trains go towards Barking from there and some continue towards Edgware Road.
  • Edgware Road to Wimbledon via Earl's Court to become a wholly new line
There are many trains that do that already. Forcing more people to change would be a retrograde step (and incur more wrath from the OP ;))
  • Close Olympia and have it as Overground only
Already done most of the time!
  • Gloucester Road to Tower Hill absorbed into the district and track relaid to extend services to/from Earl's Court
Most trains on this section are District trains, and go via Earl's Court. Not sure what track has been removed that could be relaid?
 

Eagle

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Hammersmith to Aldgate is a joint H&C/Circle, it's just some trains go towards Barking from there and some continue towards Edgware Road.

You are conflating Aldgate and Aldgate East there, I fear. H&C and Circle trains' last common station is Liverpool Street.


I've heard rumours that once the S-stock is fully introduced then Met services which currently terminate at Aldgate will instead run to Barking, and that what are now H&C services would terminate at Aldgate (and since this makes the H&C a subset of the Circle it would effectively be subsumed into it). Not sure if I believe this—mightn't there be platform-length issues with S8 stock past Aldgate East?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edgware Road to Wimbledon via Earl's Court to become a wholly new line

This would only work as long as you kept District line services from Tower Hill to Wimbledon as they are—basically making the Wimbledon branch joint between the District and Wimbleware.

In terms of service nothing would change, but at least it'd make things clearer to passengers which branches connect to which.
 

yorkie

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You are conflating Aldgate and Aldgate East there, I fear. H&C and Circle trains' last common station is Liverpool Street.
True, they just bypass the station (you can see them from the platforms and vice-versa!), but this isn't a proposal by me, I am just trying to say that much of what is proposed is already done anyway, at least in principle. The removal of through services can be useful at times, but if taken too far can cause as many problems as it solves.
 

LE Greys

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It's a complete an utter pain in the backside to get from Paddington to King's Cross without the Circle (the other way makes no real appreciable difference because it was always so) because instead of a nice flat run down to Praed Street, you now have to drag luggage up the footbridge and down again. Same applies to King's Cross-Notting Hill Gate, or for that matter Baker Street-South Ken, but the luggage problems are worst at Paddington. Some lifts would be a great help, and I think we're finally getting some.

Unfortunately, the Circle is dead, and I don't think it will ever come back.
 

causton

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It's a complete an utter pain in the backside to get from Paddington to King's Cross without the Circle (the other way makes no real appreciable difference because it was always so) because instead of a nice flat run down to Praed Street, you now have to drag luggage up the footbridge and down again. Same applies to King's Cross-Notting Hill Gate, or for that matter Baker Street-South Ken, but the luggage problems are worst at Paddington. Some lifts would be a great help, and I think we're finally getting some.

Unfortunately, the Circle is dead, and I don't think it will ever come back.

I would hardly say cross-platform interchange "kills" a line. You can change from a westbound H+C/Circle to a westbound District at Edgware Road easily, and from an eastbound terminating Circle to an eastbound H+C/Circle easily. Not sure where the problem is here - even if you have to let one train go?
 

yorkie

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It's a complete an utter pain in the backside to get from Paddington to King's Cross without the Circle (the other way makes no real appreciable difference because it was always so) because instead of a nice flat run down to Praed Street, you now have to drag luggage up the footbridge and down again.
You can still use the other platforms, but you will have to change.

I find the platforms in the main shed a lot easier as they are much nearer the trains at Paddington! There's also a ramp from the footbridge, so only one set of steps that is compulsory but presumably an escalator (and/or lifts) will follow when the building work is complete.

Same applies to King's Cross-Notting Hill Gate
Probably quicker by deep level tube. But the interchange at Edgware Road is (optionally) cross-platform.
or for that matter Baker Street-South Ken
Ditto
but the luggage problems are worst at Paddington. Some lifts would be a great help, and I think we're finally getting some.

Unfortunately, the Circle is dead, and I don't think it will ever come back.
No, because it is unable to easily recover from delays, and would cause increased overcrowding by not being able to run as many trains.
 

LE Greys

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OK, assuming cross-platform means cross-platform and not over the bridge, it is still an annoying delay where you are kept standing about (or sitting if you are lucky) waiting for something. Avoiding that means using that cramped, awkward platform at Bishop's Road with it's single bridge and difficult steps. The lifts can't come soon enough, and definitely should have been in place before they made the change. Even if you do use the ramp, you usually have to cover the entire length of the trainshed and back to get to the correct platform. That's longer than the distance from the concourse to Praed Street even without the steps. Praed Street clockwise was easy, anti-clockwise always drove me nuts anyway (another awkward footbridge whatever you did). I'm usually prepared to suffer a little more crowding for a direct train when I have luggage, although it seems I'm in a minority here.

The one possible advantage is that in high summer, you can get out and have a breather.
 

yorkie

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OK, assuming cross-platform means cross-platform and not over the bridge, it is still an annoying delay where you are kept standing about (or sitting if you are lucky) waiting for something.
But overall there are less people waiting than there were when there was a less frequent service when the circle ran as a circle. There are a small number of people who have to do more waiting, but a far greater number who will have to do less waiting.

Avoiding that means using that cramped, awkward platform at Bishop's Road with it's single bridge and difficult steps. The lifts can't come soon enough, and definitely should have been in place before they made the change. Even if you do use the ramp, you usually have to cover the entire length of the trainshed and back to get to the correct platform.
Why would you have to do that? There's a bridge linking all platforms.
That's longer than the distance from the concourse to Praed Street even without the steps.
Or much shorter if you just use the bridge.
 

LE Greys

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Why would you have to do that? There's a bridge linking all platforms.

Or much shorter if you just use the bridge.

OK, me and my trunk have just arrived at Paddington, platform 3. We have a choice, walk from Coach C to the concourse, over to platform 1 and use the lift, or try to cart a 70lb weight up a set of stairs. Thanks! <( In the past, I could have walked to the concourse, down a short escalator and along a flat passage, no case-humping required (if I can put it that way).
 

philjo

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The problem I have found is that on the district line platforms at Paddington you don't always know if the train was a circle or Wilbledon one - they all say destination Edgware Road - so many people get caught out finding that they have to go over the footbridge at Edgeware road to continue towards Kings cross.

At least the H&C platfroms at Paddington will have lift access in the future (can't remember when they are scheduled for completion)

It was always a gamble at Paddington whether to go for the circle/district or H&C platforms as whichever I went to invariably I just missed a train and had to wait more than 10 minutes for the next one.
Going the other way was easier as just got on any non-met line train at Kings Cross to Paddington.

with the new circle line arrangements I do find it now takes much longer to get to High Street Kensington from Kings Cross. part of the problem is that at Edgware Road you don't know if the train from platform 2 or 3 will leave first unless one has a green signal of course) - it is usually the train I am not on!
 

bb21

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It was always a gamble at Paddington whether to go for the circle/district or H&C platforms as whichever I went to invariably I just missed a train and had to wait more than 10 minutes for the next one.
Going the other way was easier as just got on any non-met line train at Kings Cross to Paddington.

You must be unlucky then, as both options should have a train every 5 minutes (every 10 minutes on each line) during daytime on weekdays.

Going towards KXSP I would go to the H&C platforms as that would entail a direct train rather than having to change at Edgware Road.
 
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