Ideas for alternative service provision on the sub-surface lines.

[GNERman]

To be fair, the only part of the Circle line that isn't covered by either Hammersmith and City of District is Liverpool Street / Aldgate to Tower Hill and Gloucester Road to High Street Kensington.

 

[JGR]

To be fair, the only part of the Circle line that isn't covered by either Hammersmith and City of District is Liverpool Street / Aldgate to Tower Hill and Gloucester Road to High Street Kensington.

Even these can be trivially circumvented by changing at Earl's Court or Aldgate East, or using the central line to cut off the corner to Liverpool Street. My local stop when I am in London is Gloucester Road, and I've done all three of those often enough.

Whilst a 10 minute frequency can be slightly annoying if you just miss one, there's always another route.

 

[SWTDesiro]

I would withdraw the Circle Line, extend the Metropolitan Line from Aldgate to Tower Hill (bare in mind all subsurface stock are now using S Stock.) District Line services from Edgware Road would either terminate at the current destination Wimbledon or Tower Hill running via the Circle line curve. I would also introduce new 'Express' services on the Earls Court-Wimbledon branch. In morning peak hours trains towards Edgware Road would call at Wimbledon, Southfields, East Putney and West Brompton via the extra track used by diverted BR services. In evening peak hours it would have the same pattern but in the opposite direction.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Surely that misses out on the two busiest intermediate stations there at Fulham Broadway and Putney Bridge? I was under the impression the whole Wimbledon-East Putney stetch was solely (or prodominantly) two-track, with NR units running over fourth rail?

 

[SWTDesiro]

Good point. Maybe there should be a Wimbledon event train running from Southfields to Earl's Court non-stop or limited stop?

 

[Dstock7080]

I would withdraw the Circle Line, extend the Metropolitan Line from Aldgate to Tower Hill (bare in mind all subsurface stock are now using S Stock.) District Line services from Edgware Road would either terminate at the current destination Wimbledon or Tower Hill running via the Circle line curve. I would also introduce new 'Express' services on the Earls Court-Wimbledon branch. In morning peak hours trains towards Edgware Road would call at Wimbledon, Southfields, East Putney and West Brompton via the extra track used by diverted BR services. In evening peak hours it would have the same pattern but in the opposite direction.

Regretfully, Tower Hill has only one reversing platform (currently only accessed from the West) which is for S7 Stock only. This would prevent the current 4-5min MET service from terminating there. You also propose to operate the District trains from Edgware Road into the same single platform?

 

[SWTDesiro]

Its flexible, you could have the Egdware Road services terminating at Aldgate...

 

[Mojo]

Its flexible, you could have the Egdware Road services terminating at Aldgate...

I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing here, or what the advantages of it are, but platforms 2 and 3 at Aldgate can only take trains from the Outer Circle (ie. those from Liverpool Street).

This proposal also ignores the fact that a lot of people want to travel from the St James's Park/Westminster area, to Liverpool Street. The current Circle works well, people from south Westminster (around Embankment/Westminster/St James's Park and Victoria) have direct services to both Paddington and Liverpool Street.

The current operation of the Circle line involves the least possible inconvenience for the least number of people. Let's face it, the western side of the Circle was always quieter than the section through the City. All the proposals here involve inconveniencing those who want to travel through the City, which is far busier, and more important, for the sake of providing a direct service around Kensington.

 

[yorkie]

Its flexible, you could have the Egdware Road services terminating at Aldgate...

I don't understand, this doesn't make any sense at all to me. Can you elaborate?

 

[JGR]

I sort of agree that it would have been better had the Metropolitan line been designed to terminate at Tower Hill, however there is now nowhere at Tower Hill to put the required platforms or space to modify the junction between Tower Hill and Aldgate, to do so in a way that would not require a reduction in District line services.

I think that given the various constraints at hand, the Circle/District/H&C/Met set of lines is a very good use of the available track.

 

[Nym]

To be honest, with the current state of affairs of the incoming stock to Upminster, shouldn't the extensions of the S8 operations for stock be out to take over the district operations to Upminster, but then that would require masses of platform extensions, and provide a degree of unreliability to services running on the met.

 

[tbtc]

I think that given the various constraints at hand, the Circle/District/H&C/Met set of lines is a very good use of the available track.

Well said - given the obvious constraints (you can't suddenly find the space to build a terminating platform in the most congested city) I think its a good use of resources.

The Circle Line might have worked okay as a stand alone line, but since it has to share its tracks with the District, Met and H&C it was an operational nightmare. What we have now is a better arrangement. Its never going to be optimal, but I can't think of a better way of doing it (without spending billions on grade separated junctions, four tracked stations etc)!

 

[swt_passenger]

There's a quite detailed explanation of how all the train frequencies will eventually be balanced on the different legs of the route (ie in 2018) in this report:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/04-lines-Proposed-Service-Changes.pdf

I reckon that TfL have come up with the best they can do given the historic limitations caused by the original layout. The only real weak area in the central area (in terms of frequency -16 tph) is Baker St to Edgware Rd.

I've attached the 2018 peak service diagram as a separate jpg below - note that in the peaks there are no Tower Hill terminators. Mansion House will have been remodelled by 2018 and no longer have a terminating platform.

 

[Deerfold]

There's a quite detailed explanation of how all the train frequencies will eventually be balanced on the different legs of the route (ie in 2018) in this report:


I've attached the 2018 peak service diagram as a separate jpg below - note that in the peaks there are no Tower Hill terminators. Mansion House will have been remodelled by 2018 and no longer have a terminating platform.

Do you know if that's been superceded by the plans for Olympia or will that line by coming back?

 

[JamesRowden]

I think that a solution would be to run the circle line from Hammersmith round to Victoria via Aldgate and then continue to Wimbledon (doubling the frequency of the Wimbledon Branch). I would fill the space between Wimbledon and Edgware Road with a Richmond to Edgware Road via Paddington Service (doubling the frequency of the Richmond branch).

This would create a lot of useful new direct journeys. The only useful direct service lost would be from the south of the circle line to the west. But changing at Earls Court or using the Central/Victoria/Bakerloo lines should be an adequate alternative route.

The only limitations to my plan that I can think of is capacity at Earls Court and the price of running more trains.

 

[Mojo]

This would create a lot of useful new direct journeys.

What direct journeys would this create, aside from Royal Oak (and west of) to Wimbledon via an extremely convoluted and time consuming route, and Edgware Rd/Paddington to Richmond (currently possible with a cross-platform interchange at Earls Court?

It would also provide two duplicate services from Hammersmith to Paddington.

The only useful direct service lost would be from the south of the circle line to the west. But changing at Earls Court.

This would require customers to cross the footbridge at Earls Court (to be fair there are lifts), and would cut off the large number of people who want to do such a journey.

 

[JamesRowden]

What direct journeys would this create, aside from Royal Oak (and west of) to Wimbledon via an extremely convoluted and time consuming route, and Edgware Rd/Paddington to Richmond (currently possible with a cross-platform interchange at Earls Court?

It would also provide two duplicate services from Hammersmith to Paddington.

This would require customers to cross the footbridge at Earls Court (to be fair there are lifts), and would cut off the large number of people who want to do such a journey.

My service idea would create direct journeys between (the line from Richmond to West Kensignton) and (the line from High Street Kensington to Edgware Road). It would also create direct services between (the line from Wimbledon to West Brompton) and (the line from Gloucester Road to Liverpool Street). Presently offpeak District Line Services between Wimbledon and Edgware Road only have Earl's Court as a common stop with any other District line Service.

Also after changing at Earl's Court when the Circle line was not running I know that the interchange between the platforms is a stepless subway and not a bridge.

 

[Dstock7080]

I think that a solution would be to run the circle line from Hammersmith round to Victoria via Aldgate and then continue to Wimbledon (doubling the frequency of the Wimbledon Branch). I would fill the space between Wimbledon and Edgware Road with a Richmond to Edgware Road via Paddington Service (doubling the frequency of the Richmond branch).

This would create a lot of useful new direct journeys. The only useful direct service lost would be from the south of the circle line to the west. But changing at Earls Court or using the Central/Victoria/Bakerloo lines should be an adequate alternative route.

The only limitations to my plan that I can think of is capacity at Earls Court and the price of running more trains.

As you predict, Earl's Court would be the problem area as you would have Hammersmith-Wimbledon trains & Edgware Road-Richmond trains crossing over each other on the WB.

If you remove the Edgware Rd-Wimbledon service and replace it with a Hammersmith-Wimbledon service, how is this doubling the frequency? (Wimbledon-Earl's Court is already every 5mins)

 

[JamesRowden]

As you predict, Earl's Court would be the problem area as you would have Hammersmith-Wimbledon trains & Edgware Road-Richmond trains crossing over each other on the WB.

If you remove the Edgware Rd-Wimbledon service and replace it with a Hammersmith-Wimbledon service, how is this doubling the frequency? (Wimbledon-Earl's Court is already every 5mins)

I am not suggesting removing the Edgware Road to Wimbledon Service, only the Circle.

Your right, my new service would increase the service by only 50% on the Wimbledon branch, I did not know about the Tower Hill to Wimbledon service (which my service would partially duplicate). Maybe my new service could go to Kensignton Olympia instead.

 

[yorkie]

I am not suggesting removing the Edgware Road to Wimbledon Service, only the Circle.

It's still unclear what exactly you are suggesting. But it is clear that you are, with all due respect, not knowledgeable enough on London Underground services for the suggestions to be taken seriously. Sorry!

Your right, my new service would increase the service by only 50% on the Wimbledon branch, I did not know about the Tower Hill to Wimbledon service (which my service would partially duplicate). Maybe my new service could go to Kensignton Olympia instead.

How will you fit all these additional trains in through the City section? As for Kensington Olympia, how many trains do you propose sending there, what would the turnaround times be (bear in mind it's single line from Earls Court Junction)? Are you also aware that will cause many conflicting movements?

(Reminds me of Alan Fry's ideas! He's not here any more but can be found elsewhere)

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you know if that's been superceded by the plans for Olympia or will that line by coming back?

I'd assume the more recent Olympia service changes supersede them appearing in the linked report, which was probably written in late 2008 although put to the board in early 2009. I think the service will remain as it is now even under the SSR resignalling, because the main issue stated to be removed was the flat crossings of the westbound Olympias in the Earls Court area - and I very much doubt they'll want to bring that problem back after all the hoops they jumped through to reduce the service...

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The problem with the current configuration lies with the Circle being grouped with the Hot & Cold and originally being a Met operation. If it were to be handed to the DR then a loop service could operate from Upminster and another from one of the Western branches of the District. Hammesrmith - Barking services could still operate as a H & C service and people could travel round the Circle (though not ride round it continually) without need to change trains. Aldgate and Earls Court junctions would of course be congested but then they always have been and always will be until some expensive remedial work and/or doubling/quadrupling of track occurs.

 

[DavyCrocket]

Also after changing at Earl's Court when the Circle line was not running I know that the interchange between the platforms is a stepless subway and not a bridge.

I must correct you regarding Earl's Court!

You can cross via a footbridge or steps to the ticket hall landing from one platform to another. Or you can use the subway which also has steps. Or the small lifts are the only step free option.

 

[Metrailway]

Why not fully combine the Hammersmith & City with the Circle and split the service in two so one half is your standard direct Hammersmith - Plaistow/Barking service and the other half is a new Hammersmith - Plaistow/Barking but via Aldgate and High Street Kensington. New line name would be Hammersmith & Circle.

 

[MCR247]

Doubt there will be enough stock & paths

 

[JGR]

Why not fully combine the Hammersmith & City with the Circle and split the service in two so one half is your standard direct Hammersmith - Plaistow/Barking service and the other half is a new Hammersmith - Plaistow/Barking but via Aldgate and High Street Kensington. New line name would be Hammersmith & Circle.

If I understand what you're getting at, you'd need to reverse trains at Edgware Road, so it's probably not worth the bother.
You can already get the District line from Hammersmith to Barking via the southern side of the Circle anyway.

 

[Dstock7080]

If I understand what you're getting at, you'd need to reverse trains at Edgware Road, so it's probably not worth the bother.
You can already get the District line from Hammersmith to Barking via the southern side of the Circle anyway.

As i read it, Metrailway doesn't intend reversing at Edgware Road.

Why not fully combine the Hammersmith & City with the Circle and split the service in two so one half is your standard direct Hammersmith - Plaistow/Barking service and the other half is a new Hammersmith - Plaistow/Barking but via Aldgate and High Street Kensington. New line name would be Hammersmith & Circle.

The problem with this lies east of Baker Street to Plaistow.
For it to be useful the 'loop' service would need to be every 10mins. Combined with the 10min H&City (direct) service, this would give a 5min service.
However, east of Edgware Road you would have the 'loop' service joining in on its 2nd circuit to Plaistow/Barking, giving a: H&City (direct), H&Circle (loop to Tower), H&Circle (loop to Plstw), H&City (direct), in a 10min window.
THEN; after Baker Street the MET service joins in! East of Aldgate East the District joins in.
You just couldn't fit it in!

 

[12CSVT]

Another possiblilty for the H&C / Circle / 'Wimbleware' which keeps service frequency at current levels, but allows an equal amount of services from both Hammersmith and High Street Kensington to continue beyond Edgware Road.

1) Combine Circle Line and H&C to run Hammersmith - Baker Street (then one loop round the circle), then to Plaistow / Barking
2) Hammersmith - Edgware Road shuttle (to keep frequency on the Hammersmith branch at current levels).
3) 'Wimbleware' to stay as it is.

 

[tbtc]

Before arguing about the "circle" part, can we agree on the following frequencies:

District Western Branches

• Ealing Broadway
• Richmond
• Wimbledon

District/H&C Eastern Branch

• Whitechapel (total frequency, inc Barking & Upminster)
• Barking (total frequency, inc Upminster)
• Upminster

Metropolitan Line

• Total number of Met services running east of Baker Street

(either "current" frequencies or "ideal" frequencies)

At the moment things are too hypothetical

 

[jopsuk]

can we go back in time and get the Victorians to build the Cirlce as a four track system, with grade separated junctions, island platforms and any terminating jplatforms between the the running ones?