Ideas for alternative service provision on the sub-surface lines.

[Mojo]

Off-peak present frequencies.

Before arguing about the "circle" part, can we agree on the following frequencies:

Daytime Off-peak train intervals as follows:
District Western Branches

• Ealing Broadway Every 10 Min
• Richmond Every 10 Min
• Wimbledon Every 5 Min

District/H&C Eastern Branch

• Whitechapel (total frequency, inc Barking & Upminster) Every 2 - 5 Min (H&C and District combined)
• Barking (total frequency, inc Upminster) Every 2 - 5 Min (H&C and District combined)
• Upminster Every 5 Min

Metropolitan Line

• Total number of Met services running east of Baker Street Every 5 - 10 Min

Combined, this means there is a service every 2½ Min Tower Hill to Gloucester Road (Circle and District) and every 2½ - 5 Min Baker Street to Liverpool Street (Circle & Hammersmith and Met).

Service intervals taken from the DMR 11 Working Timetables (WTT).

 

[Clip]

Mojo,

what is the frequency then of the circle line say from Tower Hill round to Liverpool street and beyond?

Everytime I use Tower hill I seem to wait an age and see nothing but District line trains pass through.

I have no idea why I dont just walk up the street to be honest.

 

[tbtc]

Off-peak present frequencies.
Daytime Off-peak train intervals as follows:
District Western Branches

• Ealing Broadway Every 10 Min
• Richmond Every 10 Min
• Wimbledon Every 5 Min

District/H&C Eastern Branch

• Whitechapel (total frequency, inc Barking & Upminster) Every 2 - 5 Min (H&C and District combined)
• Barking (total frequency, inc Upminster) Every 2 - 5 Min (H&C and District combined)
• Upminster Every 5 Min

Metropolitan Line

• Total number of Met services running east of Baker Street Every 5 - 10 Min

Combined, this means there is a service every 2½ Min Tower Hill to Gloucester Road (Circle and District) and every 2½ - 5 Min Baker Street to Liverpool Street (Circle & Hammersmith and Met).

Service intervals taken from the DMR 11 Working Timetables (WTT).

Cheers for this Mojo - I appreciate the time taken.

:uts thinking cap on::

 

[DavyCrocket]

Mojo,

what is the frequency then of the circle line say from Tower Hill round to Liverpool street and beyond?

Everytime I use Tower hill I seem to wait an age and see nothing but District line trains pass through.

I have no idea why I dont just walk up the street to be honest.

Every ten minutes. When it still ran around and around it was every 8.5 minutes.

 

[Deerfold]

Every ten minutes. When it still ran around and around it was every 8.5 minutes.

In theory, but rarely managed it in practice.

 

[DavyCrocket]

In theory, but rarely managed it in practice.

Indeed.
At least now the trains do run more reliably to the south side of the circle

 

[OxtedL]

Hopefully these diagrams are both correct and self explanatory. They show the current off peak situation, minus the Olympia faff around.

A fair bit of the headache is that the Met runs off a different frequency to the other sub-surface lines and the Picc, which messes everything up when trying to slot things together.

 

[Clip]

Every ten minutes. When it still ran around and around it was every 8.5 minutes.

Thats actually still quite a long time though isnt it when you are used to other lines being much more frequent..

Does the district really need a Tower Hill terminator? Wouldnt this free up a path to get the Circle more frequent or would it not have the paths on the northside?

 

[tbtc]

Does the district really need a Tower Hill terminator? Wouldnt this free up a path to get the Circle more frequent or would it not have the paths on the northside?

I guess the way to do it would be to link the (ten minute) Tower Hill terminator to the (seven and a half minutes) Aldgate terminators on the Metropolitan?

 

[Deerfold]

I guess the way to do it would be to link the (ten minute) Tower Hill terminator to the (seven and a half minutes) Aldgate terminators on the Metropolitan?

Which would probably be quite a good idea if it wasn't already planned to extend the TH terminators to (at least) Barking by 2018.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which would probably be quite a good idea if it wasn't already planned to extend the TH terminators to (at least) Barking by 2018.

I did worry when I provided that info about the 2018 service (back in post #43) no-one would actually read that aspect...

 

[Mutant Lemming]

A fundamental change in the operation of the three lines is needed if any co-ordinated service is to work. The fact that the three lines operate as seperate entities in spite of sharing common sections of track doesn't really help. You have a situation where serious delays have occured due to H & C drivers not being trained over a few yards of track. Each controller is bound to be more concerned about recovering 'their' service rather than the overall picture on the core stretches of the Circle. Before coming up with any potential service configurations it might be an idea to combine SSR operations and train the drivers to operate all stock over all of the key junctions, crossovers, reversing points and depots. If nothing else, it should reduce the time needed to recover the service after incidents because a driver can't take advantage of a useful diversion or reversing point.

 

[jopsuk]

give it a few years, and you'll only need to have them trained on one stock type...

 

[glbotu]

So, how feasible/useful (cost semi-regardless, I mean, I feel it would cost money, but just not be extortionate) would the following be:

Create a junction East of Farringdon, pushing the Met onto the former City Widened Lines, running into platforms 5 and 6 at Moorgate (electrified etc.), cutting off the Met to Aldgate. This would free up some capacity, reducing the length of the choke. The Circle Line to be re-instated to a circle, however, in order to solve the timing issue which the old Circle had, through-track platforms 2 and 3 at Aldgate, allowing Circle line trains to bypass each other. Continuing along this theme, reinstate the outside platforms at South Kensington, allowing for further bypassing.

 

[Deerfold]

The Circle Line to be re-instated to a circle, however, in order to solve the timing issue which the old Circle had, through-track platforms 2 and 3 at Aldgate, allowing Circle line trains to bypass each other.

I don't see how this would help unless you have a long scheduled wait there - the problem with a circle is that once a train gets late it can't catch up - and gets later as it's not at the right point to fit in with the other trains.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If you're going to fiddle about with the Farringdon - Moorgate section, wouldn't it make more sense to keep the clockwise track as it is, move the anti clockwise one all the way over and have the two middle roads become the Moorgate bays so that Moorgate terminating services no longer have to make conflicting movements to get into the bays?

That also makes it far quicker and easier to turn back an Aldgate Met train short to recover late running.

 

[Manchester77]

Would it be possible to have metropolitan line trains running to barking instead of the Hammersmith and city line?

 

[JGR]

So, how feasible/useful (cost semi-regardless, I mean, I feel it would cost money, but just not be extortionate) would the following be:

Create a junction East of Farringdon, pushing the Met onto the former City Widened Lines, running into platforms 5 and 6 at Moorgate (electrified etc.), cutting off the Met to Aldgate. This would free up some capacity, reducing the length of the choke. The Circle Line to be re-instated to a circle, however, in order to solve the timing issue which the old Circle had, through-track platforms 2 and 3 at Aldgate, allowing Circle line trains to bypass each other. Continuing along this theme, reinstate the outside platforms at South Kensington, allowing for further bypassing.

I don't really see that this would solve any of the major problems, it creates an extra bottleneck at Farringdon, and it effectively reduces the utility of the Metropolitan line (as it would no longer serve Liverpool Street).
Barbican and Moorgate don't really need another two platforms each just for existing services.
Also, you could just as easily terminate them at platforms 3 and 4 at Moorgate and save yourself a fortune in track re-arrangement.

I don't really see how allowing trains to bypass each other fixes the timing issues. Artificially holding trains back to execute overtaking manoeuvres just exacerbates overall delays.

Would it be possible to have metropolitan line trains running to barking instead of the Hammersmith and city line?

That would create an extremely long route, and given that the the Metropolitan line has a lot of branches, and that a good fraction of services terminate at Baker Street, would probably severely complicate timetabling the Barking section and/or possibly require a reduction in service on that line.

 

[150001]

One crazy idea would be a circle line as a actual tube line underneath the current sub surface line which frees up much capacity on the sub surface lines and also enables a more frequent service. This could be run by new Bombardier stock similar to the 2009 stock, but 7 cars long. Of course this would be all in a dream! However why can't the northern section and western section be transformed into four tracks. Is it because of costs or foundations of nearby buildings. Surely one side could be drilled into to widen the trackbeds.

 

[LE Greys]

One crazy idea would be a circle line as a actual tube line underneath the current sub surface line which frees up much capacity on the sub surface lines and also enables a more frequent service. This could be run by new Bombardier stock similar to the 2009 stock, but 7 cars long. Of course this would be all in a dream! However why can't the northern section and western section be transformed into four tracks. Is it because of costs or foundations of nearby buildings. Surely one side could be drilled into to widen the trackbeds.

Much of the southern side is part of the Victoria Embankment, so there is no way to widen the lines sideways. To the south is the Thames, to the north a massive sewer. The northern sections might be easier, but not much, since these 'cut and cover' lines would cause massive disruption if widened using the old method. Boring tunnels alongside might be possible, especially if they could take the opportunity to grade-separate all the junctions at the same time, but again it would be very expensive, almost the equivalent of boring the Crossrail tunnel. I suppose one way might be to absorb the Met at Finchley Road (taking the current Baker Street platforms out of use or transferring them to Chiltern) and run it roughly alongside the current line, or by a new route, to Farrindon, with some new deep-level platforms, then surface just east of there in the former Widened Lines section to terminate at Moorgate. Another option for the Moorgate section would be to extend the Euston-Watford service through to there, but that's extremely unlikely.

 

[JGR]

There isn't much point building more tracks at huge cost to exactly duplicate the existing route.
Better to provide an additional route which connects with the existing one at key points, but which doesn't call at every little station on the way, (ie. Crossrail and similar).

Crossrail is already effectively a bypass of the Northern edge of the circle (Paddington to Liverpool Street). The only snag is missing out King's Cross, but there are enough other connections for this to not be an issue.

 

[LE Greys]

There isn't much point building more tracks at huge cost to exactly duplicate the existing route.
Better to provide an additional route which connects with the existing one at key points, but which doesn't call at every little station on the way, (ie. Crossrail and similar).

Crossrail is already effectively a bypass of the Northern edge of the circle (Paddington to Liverpool Street). The only snag is missing out King's Cross, but there are enough other connections for this to not be an issue.

That seems to be the case. I'll probably start cutting out the Circle and just do Hitchin-Farringdon-Paddington when it opens, although it seems a shame to miss out on King's Cross. Chelney, if it happens, should provide some relief to the southern half, or at least the Fulham Broadway-Victoria section. Maybe they are right to go south instead of west from Fulham.

 

[D365]

Would it be possible to have metropolitan line trains running to barking instead of the Hammersmith and city line?

That could happen, according to TfL's plans for 2025 or so. I can't really be bothered to find the source now, but if the Met and H&C east termini are swapped, H&C may as well be absorbed by the Circle.

 

[swt_passenger]

That could happen, according to TfL's plans for 2025 or so. I can't really be bothered to find the source now, but if the Met and H&C east termini are swapped, H&C may as well be absorbed by the Circle.

I've seen that in the past, but it seems to have been overtaken by subsequent decisions.

Most importantly, the balance between S7 and S8 trains is designed to fit the current destinations, if it was changed round they'd have to use S7s on the Met.

 

[Class377/5]

One crazy idea would be a circle line as a actual tube line underneath the current sub surface line which frees up much capacity on the sub surface lines and also enables a more frequent service. This could be run by new Bombardier stock similar to the 2009 stock, but 7 cars long. Of course this would be all in a dream! However why can't the northern section and western section be transformed into four tracks. Is it because of costs or foundations of nearby buildings. Surely one side could be drilled into to widen the trackbeds.

Not as crazy as you think as a deep level Distruct was planned actually to help cut the time time when crossing London. Can't find reference to it but one platform tunnel was built next to one of the Piccadilly line stations. Can't remember for sure but believe it may have shared track with Piccadilly to Hammersmith.

I've seen that in the past, but it seems to have been overtaken by subsequent decisions.

Most importantly, the balance between S7 and S8 trains is designed to fit the current destinations, if it was changed round they'd have to use S7s on the Met.

No they wouldn't. The S8 serve 7 car platforms nd use SDO to allow people to enter/exit so serving 7 car platforms wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[D365]

No they wouldn't. The S8 serve 7 car platforms nd use SDO to allow people to enter/exit so serving 7 car platforms wouldn't have been an issue.

Generally, SDO is only used as a last resort, where it isn't worthwhile extending a platform. If a service has to use SDO at a number of stations, something will have gone wrong.

As an aside, if Metropolitan S8s were to run up to Barking, then how many platforms would need to be extended?

 

[Dstock7080]

As an aside, if Metropolitan S8s were to run up to Barking, then how many platforms would need to be extended?

Whitechapel, West Ham, Plaistow pfm3, Barking pfm3, will only just fit S7s.
Aldgate East, Stepney Green, Bow Road, Bromley, Plaistow1/2, Upton Park, East Ham, Barking2/6 could accommodate S8s if the existing longer platform infrastructure was improved, resurfaced etc.
More serious work would be required in Barking sidings, as already signals are being moved to accomodate S7s.

 

[trentside]

Not as crazy as you think as a deep level Distruct was planned actually to help cut the time time when crossing London. Can't find reference to it but one platform tunnel was built next to one of the Piccadilly line stations. Can't remember for sure but believe it may have shared track with Piccadilly to Hammersmith.

I believe the District Deep Level was planned to run from Hammersmith to Mansion House (or Temple?) but other than one tunnel dug for testing purposes at South Kensington was never constructed - some of the plans were later incorporated into the GN Piccadilly & Brompton after that concern became part of the Yerkes group of lines.

I will double check with Rails Through the Clay later, which gives me an excuse to read that book again!

 

[Uranquinty]

That could happen, according to TfL's plans for 2025 or so. I can't really be bothered to find the source now, but if the Met and H&C east termini are swapped, H&C may as well be absorbed by the Circle.

Uxbridge to Barking, perhaps? We've been here before. I've often pondered what would have happened if Harrow was remodelled in 1938 directly after Wembley Park and Aldgate was resignalled earlier than 1946 (OK the Aldgate lever frame was at Paddington GW due to bomb damage)?

The WTT paths Uxb - Bkg are slightly peculiar and the diagramming wasn't captive units [1], and it didn't help that for the first few months 17th July 1939 to 20th November of the same year that there were through working off the Met to the ELL, putting a lot of strain on Aldgate East - St Marys.

Perhaps it will be achievable with moving block signalling.... There's less junctions now.

[1] I think it was usually Uxb - Bkg - Uxb - BkS - Uxb. The BkS might have been when one of the throughs off the ELL was trundling round St Mary's curve.

 

[Rational Plan]

If we wanted to separate out some of the lines on the sub surface and we had loads of money, I'd build a new express Metropolitan line from Baker Street to Liverpool street around the eastern edge and Southwards to London bridge.

A short southern extension to Denmark Hill along the walworth road would provide a strong southern anchor without going to far.