Ideas for alternative service provision on the sub-surface lines.

[LE Greys]

If we wanted to separate out some of the lines on the sub surface and we had loads of money, I'd build a new express Metropolitan line from Baker Street to Liverpool street around the eastern edge and Southwards to London bridge.

A short southern extension to Denmark Hill along the walworth road would provide a strong southern anchor without going to far.

I like these. I remember finding an old issue of Rail from the 1980s, and they came up with a plan to replace the Snow Hill tunnel with an entirely new route from St Pancras to London Bridge (presumably faster) and linking Old Oak-Queen's Park d.c. lines, South Hampstead Tunnel-Pentonville Road and Moorgate-Liverpool Street as a cheap version of Crossrail. This reminds me of that, and seems just as plausible.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I don't see why all services just can't go in a circle and cancelling Hammersmith services. This makes a true circle line and most services won't need to terminate and detrain at Edgware Road unless they need to be taken back to the depot.
I'm sure this could be refined even better as well.

 

[Mojo]

I don't see why all services just can't go in a circle and cancelling Hammersmith services. This makes a true circle line and most services won't need to terminate and detrain at Edgware Road unless they need to be taken back to the depot.
I'm sure this could be refined even better as well.

What do you mean ''cancelling Hammersmith services?'' What about customers who want to travel over that line, or those that want to travel from Kings + to Barking? There's not enough capacity Tower Hill - Gloucester Rd to run a Circle train every 5 Min.

There's a reason services terminate at Edgware Rd, because running around in circles all day didn't allow enough time to catch up, resulting in delays.

Services are only detrained at Edgware Rd when being sent to the sidings or empty anyway.

 

[LE Greys]

What do you mean ''cancelling Hammersmith services?'' What about customers who want to travel over that line, or those that want to travel from Kings + to Barking? There's not enough capacity Tower Hill - Gloucester Rd to run a Circle train every 5 Min.

There's a reason services terminate at Edgware Rd, because running around in circles all day didn't allow enough time to catch up, resulting in delays.

Services are only detrained at Edgware Rd when being sent to the sidings or empty anyway.

Did the Circle actually have a timetable? I always thought they slotted them into whatever gap happened to be available on an ad hoc basis. On thinking about it, that sounds a bit unlikely.

 

[jopsuk]

If we wanted to separate out some of the lines on the sub surface and we had loads of money, I'd build a new express Metropolitan line from Baker Street to Liverpool street around the eastern edge and Southwards to London bridge.

A short southern extension to Denmark Hill along the walworth road would provide a strong southern anchor without going to far.

Assuming you're sticking with cut-and-cover (somehow) through the City and south of the river- how does that cross the river? Perhaps pre-cast tubes sunk into trenches in the river bed?

 

[DavyCrocket]

Did the Circle actually have a timetable? I always thought they slotted them into whatever gap happened to be available on an ad hoc basis. On thinking about it, that sounds a bit unlikely.

Yes they did run to a timetable. There was a train meant to be every 8.5 minutes now there is one every 10.


Also there are now no longer any sidings at Edgware Road. It is now a substation type building/ bulk supply point.

 

[LE Greys]

Assuming you're sticking with cut-and-cover (somehow) through the City and south of the river- how does that cross the river? Perhaps pre-cast tubes sunk into trenches in the river bed?

They would have to be quite deep in if they were not to constitute a hazard to navigation. Something like Marc Brunel's tunnel downstream.

Yes they did run to a timetable. There was a train meant to be every 8.5 minutes now there is one every 10.

Also there are now no longer any sidings at Edgware Road. It is now a substation type building/ bulk supply point.

It's funny, you don't really think of urban metro services running to a timetable, but I supppose they must do if they are to interface with anything (i.e. Circle/Met/Chiltern).

 

[DavyCrocket]

They would have to be quite deep in if they were not to constitute a hazard to navigation. Something like Marc Brunel's tunnel downstream.



It's funny, you don't really think of urban metro services running to a timetable, but I supppose they must do if they are to interface with anything (i.e. Circle/Met/Chiltern).

Everything is planned in detail and to the minute (or half or quarter in case of timetables) - train numbers, train destinations, train operators duties and analysis and then the maximum driving time - then the target headway between trains, KMs run - all adds up!

 

[jopsuk]

the working timetables were released under Freedom of Information a few months back- there's a thread on here with them for all lines

 

[Rational Plan]

Assuming you're sticking with cut-and-cover (somehow) through the City and south of the river- how does that cross the river? Perhaps pre-cast tubes sunk into trenches in the river bed?

No it would have to be deep bore.

I can think of quite a few advantages of such a route.

1. It would allow a massive increase in frequency to the Metropolitan line and allow all peak trains to run direct to the city.

2. It would allow an increase on the Hammer City, but might require a new colour for a service to terminate at Aldgate.

3 It would mostly duplicate the Northern Lines City Branch.

4 London bridge would have a new route into the City on its Eastern side where all the new skyscrapers are rising.

5. If the stop at Farringdon was omitted either you create a super express for commuters from Euston and KX to the City or you could have a new stop somewhere between Angel and Farringdon.

6 Or have the line also have a station near Aldgate East and have the line go station a bit further North of Liverpool Street near to Shoreditch and so have a link to the Overground and then onto Kings Cross.


It may be many years, but at some point big chunks of this route will be used by a scheme in some form or another.

 

[jopsuk]

I think you'd want a stop at Farringdon because it helps make that even more of a hub

 

[150001]

The problem with the deep bore is that the tunnels would need to be very wide, to enable the S stock air con to work. For a cheaper idea, couldn't the Hammersmith and City be pushed back from Barking and then go through Aldgate and do a loop all the way to Paddington. Basically a train from Hammersmith would go along the Northern section, do the Circle line and then it would come back to the Circle line platforms at Paddington. The Metropolitan would be extended from Aldgate to Barking instead. Naturally the Circle line name would be scrapped. Would this free up some room as the Circle has been combined with the H&C? The District line to Edgware Road though could be a problem, as Paddington (old Circle) would be a two track terminus!

 

[jopsuk]

If you were splitting these "fast" lines off the Met before Baker Street, the tunnels could even be made big enough for "mainline" stock- could then resurface, connect to one of the South London branches and potentially have a "Crossrail 3" route? Would be able to take pressure off London Bridge/Cannon Street/Charing Cross/Victoria. Would require either the conversion of the 3rd/4th rail system north of the tunnels to the same system as used on current LU/LO shared sections or the idea of OHL over 4th rail (as discussed elsewhere on here, this is possible whereas long sections of 3rd rail/ohl aren't).

 

[150001]

If you were splitting these "fast" lines off the Met before Baker Street, the tunnels could even be made big enough for "mainline" stock- could then resurface, connect to one of the South London branches and potentially have a "Crossrail 3" route? Would be able to take pressure off London Bridge/Cannon Street/Charing Cross/Victoria. Would require either the conversion of the 3rd/4th rail system north of the tunnels to the same system as used on current LU/LO shared sections or the idea of OHL over 4th rail (as discussed elsewhere on here, this is possible whereas long sections of 3rd rail/ohl aren't).

Sounds a good sensible idea. Really London does need a second North to South route, to relieve the Northern line branches.

 

[D365]

Northern line relief? I would connect Moorgate mainline to Bank W&C, enlarge the latter, possibly add Blackfriars as a station and connect into a pair of Clapham Junction tracks.

"Crossrail 3" is supposed to be Watford DC Lines, WCML or even HS2 tunnelled under Euston through to Waterloo. "Crossrail 4" would be my aforementioned idea, so "Crossrail 5" could be "MetEx" - How about that?