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If you were controlling the Reshaping of the railways, which lines would you shut or save?

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Con

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You know what? I agree with you. Of course we'll probably be derided as deluded fantasists who need to face facts, but I agree with you.

Christ on a bike, this is exactly what I have been hearing on various Irish internet fora for years. If no one stood up for the railways in Ireland, all we would have left would be Belfast-Dublin-Limerick-Cork with the DART and Luas. Everything else would be ploughed into bloody Greenways.
 
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A0wen

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No one is going to drive from Wellingborough to Northampton (and vice versa) to catch a train. If Northampton were reconnected to Wellingborough by rail however .................

Except many people DO drive from Northampton to Wellingborough to use the train, not least because if you live on the east side of Northampton it's quicker to drive to Wellingborough station than Northampton.

You can, however, drop your incessant whine for the Northampton - Peterborough line to re-open. That's not going to happen - it's completely unviable for a multitude of reasons. You'd have a better chance of getting the Woodhead, GC London extension or S&D reinstated - and they're pretty unlikely.
 

RT4038

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You can, however, drop your incessant whine for the Northampton - Peterborough line to re-open. That's not going to happen - it's completely unviable for a multitude of reasons. You'd have a better chance of getting the Woodhead, GC London extension or S&D reinstated - and they're pretty unlikely.

With that kind of attitude, where in the queue is the re-opening of the Somersham-Ramsey East line, closed by greedy and ignorant LNER shareholders and managers in 1930, aided and abetted by a corrupt Government caving in to the road lobby and repealing the Red Flag Act in 1896, thereby allowing motor vehicles unbridled use of the highways, daring to compete with the beloved railways?
 

yorksrob

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With that kind of attitude, where in the queue is the re-opening of the Somersham-Ramsey East line, closed by greedy and ignorant LNER shareholders and managers in 1930, aided and abetted by a corrupt Government caving in to the road lobby and repealing the Red Flag Act in 1896, thereby allowing motor vehicles unbridled use of the highways, daring to compete with the beloved railways?

And what exactly is your view of the 1972 Rail Policy Review and the machinations to defend it ?
 

RT4038

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As I understand it, the 1972 Rail Policy Review was another attempt to define a 'viable' network (i.e. no subsidy) and the remaining network that would require subsidy to retain. Set the hares running at the time, and contributed to the debate that resulted in the network remaining approximately as it is now. Don't know enough about the machinations, or their context, to make any judgement. I wonder what would be the outcome of a similar study with that term of reference now?
 

coppercapped

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I just know that you are all waiting avidly for Part 3 of my thoughts on the development of the railways in the early post-war period! Having now arrived in northern Germany and thanks to the miracle of the World Wide Web I can post it from here…

In this section I argue that in 1948 the Railway Executive completely missed the opportunity of:
  • deciding what is was there to do
  • commencing work on building an accounting system to support decision making
  • start to match timetables with demand and flows based on the very successful ‘clock face’ timetables introduced by Herbert Walker on the Southern in the 1920s and 1930s
  • build on the work already started by the Big Four on diesel traction.
Nothing listed here was new or revolutionary for the time - it had all been done before. Companies and organisations have always needed to know and understand the reason for their existence, what they were good at (and what they were not so good at…), where their income came from and how they could increase it in order to grow and where their costs arose. Only once all these were known could they decide on the tools they needed. In 1967, G. F. Fiennes (then General Manager of the Eastern Region of BR) wrote of his time as Chief Operating Officer at the BRB in 1960:
It is one of the disasters about British Railways that in the years between 1947 and 1955 no one had done the basic work on what we were there for at all; what traffic should be carried by what methods in what quantities, where from and to, at what rates. The upshot was that the Modernisation Plan produced in 1953-55 with the support of the Government to the extent of £1,500 million was little more than a change from steam traction plus host of mouldering schemes which the B.T.C. and the Regions had found after a hurried search of their pigeon holes. We had made the basic error of buying our tools before doing our homework on defining the job.
This has been quoted before, but it can’t be repeated often enough in threads of this kind as there are always some people who don’t know it!

One can argue that the continued existence of the Common Carrier obligations made the first two points in my list superfluous - but if the RE really had been forward looking it should have been able to have at least some view of the way the world would develop over the next few years and campaigned to have the obligation removed. As it was it assumed that everything would continue as before.

Apart from basic traffic studies of the type carried out by Beeching in 1961, I am arguing that the RE should have started to build ‘Pilot Scheme’ diesels in 1948. If it had done so the frenzied rush to convert to diesel, which started around 1956 as the railways’ finances slid into free-fall and which resulted in the building of large numbers of generally unsatisfactory diesels, could have been avoided. The RE was correct in identifying electrification as being a better source of traction power than steam locomotives and continued the electrifications that the LNER had planned before the war but it should not have ignored diesel traction in the hope of jumping straight from steam to electricity. As it was it lost seven or eight years in the development of diesel traction.

There have been many voices over the years which have argued that such an approach was not possible, for reasons of production capacity; shortages of materials; lack of money; the cost of diesels; that diesel had to be imported; that steam offered fuller employment; that the RE was directed to build steam locomotives and so on and so forth.

All these arguments are bogus and I shall try to demonstrate why.

It is clear that at the end of the Second World War Britain's gold and dollar reserves were almost completely run down thus making it difficult for the Government to pay for the imports it wanted. However, the economy as a whole was in better shape than those of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and all of central Europe. There was a flourishing export market to replace goods lost in the war, British industry was not run down but faced the difficult process of shifting from a war economy - almost every single branch of manufacturing industry was involved to a greater or lesser extent in making war goods - to a peacetime one. During the war British industry built 20,000 Spitfires;14,000 Hurricanes over 7,000 Avro Lancasters and 150,000 Rolls Royce Merlins as well as thousands of other aircraft and their engines; battleships; aircraft carriers; submarines; destroyers; frigates; tanks; guns; landing craft; electrical equipment; radar and other electronics and early computers under much more hostile conditions. Between June 1941 and the end of the war Britain shipped 3,000 of those Hurricanes to the USSR together with 4,000 other aircraft, 5,000 tanks, 5,000 anti-tank guns and 15 million pairs of boots.

There was lots of production capacity available, a part of it suitable for locomotive-sized diesel engines and electrical equipment.

Clearly, in the short term immediately after the War, probably until 1951 or 1952, there was no alternative to building new steam locomotives. Replacements for clapped out and older locomotives were badly needed - so continuation of the Big Four designs was the obvious solution - but probably in smaller numbers than one might think for two reasons. Firstly newer replacements were more capable than the Victorian engines that would have been scrapped earlier if it was not for the war and, secondly, the extra haulage and route capacity required for supporting the invasion of Europe with men and equipment could now be used for other things.

In the event the RE and BTC built 2537 steam locomotives between 1948 and 1960, 1518 to designs of ‘The Big Four’ and 999 ‘BR Standard’ designs. (Source: Johnson and Long, ‘British Railways Engineering 1948-80’, published by Mechanical Engineering Publications Ltd., 1981. ISBN 0 85298 446 4). The ‘Standards’ were a complete waste of money as the engineering, management and drawing office time could have been used to better effect - in most cases they were simply existing designs but with new tooling and details. For the essential replacement locomotives only the Big Four’s designs should have been built. The locomotive exchange trials in April 1948 had shown there was no great difference in performance between the locos of the individual companies so there is no reason why the most modern of each of them could not have continued to have been built for the next five or six years for use in their area. There would then have been no need to complicate holdings of spare parts by adding another set to the stores - there were only 999 ‘Standards’ but there were over 20,000 locomotives on the stock list. There was much less inter-regional traffic then as now so having ‘Standard’ locomotives brought no great advantages - the ‘Big Four’ had worked out ways to handle the issues and for the next few years the solutions they used would have been satisfactory.

But there was no reason whatsoever for not building some prototype diesels. As I wrote in my previous post, even the British Transport Commission could see this - and wrote to the Railway Executive to that effect in 1948. There had been huge developments in internal combustion engines and control systems during the war; the drawing office staffs would have been much better employed in developing and improving Ivatt’s 10000 and 10001 and building small series of Mark 2 and Mark 3 versions. The other path that should have been followed at the same time was the continuation of the development of the seminal intercity railcars built by the GWR and successfully used on the Cardiff-Birmingham route just before the war.

I am not suggesting that there should have been wholesale dieselisation in this period, only the manufacture and use of up to a couple of hundred units of 1,600 to 2,000 hp and probably another couple of hundred DMUs. Of these DMUs some would obviously have been used for the more lightly trafficked routes but the GWR’s experience showed there could be good results on the longer distance inter-urban or intercity services. If this path had been followed then by about 1951 or 1952 there would have been enough experience to make considered judgements on the operational cost savings which could be made by the new traction, an idea of the way the markets could have been developed by faster and cleaner traction combined with timetables matched to a world increasingly attuned to the flexibility offered by the motor car.

(The argument has been made that steam traction was necessary as ‘we’ (meaning the Government) could not afford the oil which anyway was in short supply. There was plenty of oil: in 1950 when petrol rationing was abolished there were 1,979,000 cars registered for use on the road, 439,000 goods vehicles and 123,000 buses. Including other vehicles there was a grand total of 3,970,000. There was enough fuel to power all these vehicles - in comparison the quantity needed to power a couple of hundred diesel trains was a drop in the ocean).

There was a short window of opportunity to convince motorists of the benefits of rail travel in the years leading up to the opening of the first motorways by offering more regular interval train services in faster and cleaner trains. The RE and BTC missed it. The result of this was that instead of the railway adapting in a period of full employment in the 1950s when it would have been possible to dramatically reduce staff numbers, and so its cost base, without excessive social upheaval and distress it was caught by surprise. The Modernisation Plan and all the subsequent Re-appraisals and Reshapings were direct consequences of its short-sightedness in 1948 and 1949. If the railway had bitten the bullet in 1948 either these documents would not have been necessary or they would have come in a very different form. Dr. Beeching would have stayed an ICI man all his working life.

This is not to say that all the network would have survived as many of the changes in travel patterns, for example the increase in foreign holidays, would have happened anyway. Almost certainly short, dead-end branch lines in the countryside with no traffic generators at either or both ends would have gone as would some of the duplicate routes. But the key to retaining the more marginal routes and to improve the profitability of the main trunk routes so raising cash for investment would have been to reduce costs as far and as quickly as possible. For this to have been possible and successful the RE would have had to been a very different animal in 1948.
 
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Dr_Paul

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The ‘Standards’ were a complete waste of money as the engineering, management and drawing office time could have been used to better effect - in most cases they were simply existing designs but with new tooling and details. For the essential replacement locomotives only the Big Four’s designs should have been built. The locomotive exchange trials in April 1948 had shown there was no great difference in performance between the locos of the individual companies so there is no reason why the most modern of each of them could not have continued to have been built for the next five or six years for use in their area. There would then have been no need to complicate holdings of spare parts by adding another set to the stores - there were only 999 ‘Standards’ but there were over 20,000 locomotives on the stock list. There was much less inter-regional traffic then as now so having ‘Standard’ locomotives brought no great advantages - the ‘Big Four’ had worked out ways to handle the issues and for the next few years the solutions they used would have been satisfactory.

That's what I've sometimes felt. When further examples of existing good designs could have been produced, with improvements if necessary, why was it felt necessary to design a whole range of new locomotives, and a very wide range at that? Many of the Standard designs were good -- although we might wish to draw a discreet veil across the Clan class -- but how many of them were a qualitative improvement upon equivalent existing designs? It seems to me that only the 9F was a really outstanding locomotive.
 

Gareth Marston

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Was it the BTC's and RE's job to formulate Government policy or to implement it?

The problem is that after 1948 the policy direction from above was little more than a vacuum with a default setting of carry on as before as the only guide.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I would have saved the Bodmin-Wadebridge-Padstow branch, which would today be a far more viable and useful line than the nearby Par-Newquay route.

Padstow is a popular tourist seaside destination, Wadebridge an important regional town. At Bodmin Parkway, the Cornish main line is positioned in the geographical centre of Cornwall, and the distance to the north coast is surprisingly low, about 10 miles. Despite this, the current bus service operated by Plymouth City Bus takes between 1h10 and 1h25 to reach Padstow, Wadebridge being about 45 mins into the journey from Bodmin Parkway. This is very slow, and reflects the poor quality of the local roads. In fact, apart from the A30, A38 and A39 trunk roads, North Cornwall is exceptionally poorly served by under developed roads, mostly winding lanes upgraded to ‘B’ status and riddled with massive potholes.

Historically Bodmin to Wadebridge was operated by the GWR, whilst Wadebridge to Padstow was the last section of the Withered Arm network of the Southern, meandering through northern Devon and Cornwall all the way from Exeter with consequently much longer journey times. The Southern ran some trains to Bodmin General but the GWR never attempted to develop through traffic beyond Wadebridge. Once the Withered Arm passed to Western Region control in the mid-1960s, they were more interested in removing the ‘competition’ and this partisan short sightedness entirely missed the potential of greatly improving the connectivity of the Camel Estuary resorts via Bodmin. (I cannot argue the Okehampton-Wadebridge route should not have been closed - it was always a basket case.)

Obviously today the Bodmin Parkway-General-Boscarne section is preserved by the Bodmin & Wenford Railway and they have long term ambitions to reopen to Wadebridge but this is only as a museum. Imagine the usefulness of a branch line operated by Sprinters- even with the reversal at General I suspect a Bodmin-Padstow journey time of 35 mins would be viable. Connections would enable a 4h45 journey time from London which is better than the journey time from Padd to Penzance.
 
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yorksrob

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I would have saved the Bodmin-Wadebridge-Padstow branch, which would today be a far more viable and useful line than the nearby Par-Newquay route.

Padstow is a popular tourist seaside destination, Wadebridge an important regional town. At Bodmin Parkway, the Cornish main line is positioned in the geographical centre of Cornwall, and the distance to the north coast is surprisingly low, about 10 miles. Despite this, the current bus service operated by Plymouth City Bus takes between 1h10 and 1h25 to reach Padstow, Wadebridge being about 45 mins into the journey from Bodmin Parkway. This is very slow, and reflects the poor quality of the local roads. In fact, apart from the A30, A38 and A39 trunk roads, North Cornwall is exceptionally poorly served by under developed roads, mostly winding lanes upgraded to ‘B’ status and riddled with massive potholes.

Historically Bodmin to Wadebridge was operated by the GWR, whilst Wadebridge to Padstow was the last section of the Withered Arm network of the Southern, meandering through northern Devon and Cornwall all the way from Exeter with consequently much longer journey times. The Southern ran some trains to Bodmin General but the GWR never attempted to develop through traffic beyond Wadebridge. Once the Withered Arm passed to Western Region control in the mid-1960s, they were more interested in removing the ‘competition’ and this partisan short sightedness entirely missed the potential of greatly improving the connectivity of the Camel Estuary resorts via Bodmin. (I cannot argue the Okehampton-Wadebridge route should not have been closed - it was always a basket case.)

Obviously today the Bodmin Parkway-General-Boscarne section is preserved by the Bodmin & Wenford Railway and they have long term ambitions to reopen to Wadebridge but this is only as a museum. Imagine the usefulness of a branch line operated by Sprinters- even with the reversal at General I suspect a Bodmin-Padstow journey time of 35 mins would be viable. Connections would enable a 4h45 journey time from London which is better than the journey time from Padd to Penzance.

This is absolutely true about this branch. I've hurtled along from Bodmin Road to Padstow by bus and its apparent from both the size and potential of the settlements (Bodmin, Wadebridge and Padstow) that the route is a huge loss to the network. Its also apparent that the roads are completely unsuited to a bus service !
 

muddythefish

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Except many people DO drive from Northampton to Wellingborough to use the train, not least because if you live on the east side of Northampton it's quicker to drive to Wellingborough station than Northampton.

You can, however, drop your incessant whine for the Northampton - Peterborough line to re-open. That's not going to happen - it's completely unviable for a multitude of reasons. You'd have a better chance of getting the Woodhead, GC London extension or S&D reinstated - and they're pretty unlikely.

You actually use the train and not your taxpayer-sponsored company car ? Surprising.

I can hear the whine of the BMW from here ........
 

Gareth Marston

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This is absolutely true about this branch. I've hurtled along from Bodmin Road to Padstow by bus and its apparent from both the size and potential of the settlements (Bodmin, Wadebridge and Padstow) that the route is a huge loss to the network. Its also apparent that the roads are completely unsuited to a bus service !

Bodmin c13K, Wadebridge c8K and Padstow c3k plus substantial tourist numbers in summer.
 

underbank

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I'd like to see the Arnside<>WCML link re-opened via Sandside and Milnthorpe. It would mean that commuters and tourists could travel between Kendal/Windermere and the South Lakes line of Grange to Barrow far quicker and easier than having to come down the WCML to change at Lancaster. Also, make more use of the Northern Curve between Morecambe and the WCML at Hest Bank, i.e. a shuttle between Morecambe and Windermere via Carnforth or even direct Morecambe<>Grange/Barrow services. At the moment the railways are poor for people travelling between Morecambe and Kendal/Windermere, or Barrow/Ulverston/Grange to kendal/Windermere. Or a direct service Barrow to Leeds by either using the derelict link at Carnforth or if that's not feasible, reversing at Carnforth station from one line to the other.

Some very modest changes could make a massive difference. There are services at the moment, but they are painful because of poor connection times, longer journeys due to having to go via Lancaster etc.
 

A0wen

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You actually use the train and not your taxpayer-sponsored company car ? Surprising.

I can hear the whine of the BMW from here ........

The only whine is from you.

And as I've explained before, I will never own a nazi-staff car (BMW) owing to their appalling behaviour on many levels.
 

A0wen

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Bodmin c13K, Wadebridge c8K and Padstow c3k plus substantial tourist numbers in summer.

Perhaps it would be instructive to look at lines which *have* survived to test this - taking two as an example, Skegness and Great Yarmouth.

Skegness has a population of 20,000 Gt Yarmouth 39,000, Felixstowe 23,000 (wikipedia as source).

Skegness station has usage of 350,000 p.a. (16/17), Yarmouth about 400,000 p.a. (16/17), Felixstowe about 200,000.

At *best* the Wadebridge / Padstow line might have achieve the Skegness figures - but it's unlikely because there are far more tourists heading to Skegness than that particular part of north Cornwall for a multitude of reasons.
 

Gareth Marston

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Perhaps it would be instructive to look at lines which *have* survived to test this - taking two as an example, Skegness and Great Yarmouth.

Skegness has a population of 20,000 Gt Yarmouth 39,000, Felixstowe 23,000 (wikipedia as source).

Skegness station has usage of 350,000 p.a. (16/17), Yarmouth about 400,000 p.a. (16/17), Felixstowe about 200,000.

At *best* the Wadebridge / Padstow line might have achieve the Skegness figures - but it's unlikely because there are far more tourists heading to Skegness than that particular part of north Cornwall for a multitude of reasons.

Population is no guide to usage and revenue. However the tourist in that part of Cornwall has two things going for it rail wise A - they've come a long way and B - they tend to be wealthy. Rick Stein doesn't have a Restaurant in Skegness does he? and David Cameron doesn't holiday in Flexistowe- they and lots of other wealthy people do in Padstow though.
 

yorksrob

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Perhaps it would be instructive to look at lines which *have* survived to test this - taking two as an example, Skegness and Great Yarmouth.

Skegness has a population of 20,000 Gt Yarmouth 39,000, Felixstowe 23,000 (wikipedia as source).

Skegness station has usage of 350,000 p.a. (16/17), Yarmouth about 400,000 p.a. (16/17), Felixstowe about 200,000.

At *best* the Wadebridge / Padstow line might have achieve the Skegness figures - but it's unlikely because there are far more tourists heading to Skegness than that particular part of north Cornwall for a multitude of reasons.

Skegness is a bit "Out on a limb", so I could imagine that there are fewer originating passengers making local journeys on the line. With Padstow, by contrast, I could imagine substantial local traffic being generated between the three settlements on the route, before you consider main line connections, and thats including both local commuters and shoppers, as well as tourists, possibly exploring the settlements on a line rover.

Bodmin itself would also be better served from the mainline as people could take the train right into town.

I think the better comparison would be within Cornwall itself, and I could see it being as successful as the Falmouth branch.

In many ways, this would be the perfect branch line.
 

Metal_gee_man

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My very honest scenario should have been, NO BRANCH LINES only through lines, creating circular routes, creating 2 paths to a destination not just one creating extra capacity but also providing a robust network when things go wrong, branch lines create a waste of resources and money! Imagine if the skegness route continued round the coast up via Grimsby and back towards Doncaster, or the Felixstowe route continued north via Ipswich and up towards Yarmouth/Norwich or most importantly if the Devon/Cornwall mainline had another route that didn't have to go via Dawlish, we all know that rising sea levels will eventually claim that line!
Portsmouth is an exception because its size, Liverpool is very much the same but circular routes work better in my opinion
Lines that shouldn't exist Isle of Sheppey to Sheerness, Marks Tey to Sudbury...I could continue!
 

A0wen

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Skegness is a bit "Out on a limb", so I could imagine that there are fewer originating passengers making local journeys on the line. With Padstow, by contrast, I could imagine substantial local traffic being generated between the three settlements on the route, before you consider main line connections, and thats including both local commuters and shoppers, as well as tourists, possibly exploring the settlements on a line rover.

Bodmin itself would also be better served from the mainline as people could take the train right into town.

I think the better comparison would be within Cornwall itself, and I could see it being as successful as the Falmouth branch.

In many ways, this would be the perfect branch line.

Well OK -

Falmouth - popn 20,000 - use across Falmouth Town & Falmouth Docks - 300k.
 

A0wen

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Population is no guide to usage and revenue. However the tourist in that part of Cornwall has two things going for it rail wise A - they've come a long way and B - they tend to be wealthy. Rick Stein doesn't have a Restaurant in Skegness does he? and David Cameron doesn't holiday in Flexistowe- they and lots of other wealthy people do in Padstow though.

And those "Wealthy people" aren't likely to use the train for their holiday - all they do is make what little holiday accomodation there is even more expensive - which actually reduces the number of people who go there.

The likes of Skegness and Yarmouth still attract *far more* people to them, because they are easily accessible from most of the cities in the midlands and indeed are more likely to attract the lower income tourists who arrive by coach or train.
 

yorksrob

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Well OK -

Falmouth - popn 20,000 - use across Falmouth Town & Falmouth Docks - 300k.

Which is a perfectly respectable performance for a local branch line. Not everywhere can be Waterloo.
 

yorksrob

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My very honest scenario should have been, NO BRANCH LINES only through lines, creating circular routes, creating 2 paths to a destination not just one creating extra capacity but also providing a robust network when things go wrong, branch lines create a waste of resources and money! Imagine if the skegness route continued round the coast up via Grimsby and back towards Doncaster, or the Felixstowe route continued north via Ipswich and up towards Yarmouth/Norwich or most importantly if the Devon/Cornwall mainline had another route that didn't have to go via Dawlish, we all know that rising sea levels will eventually claim that line!
Portsmouth is an exception because its size, Liverpool is very much the same but circular routes work better in my opinion
Lines that shouldn't exist Isle of Sheppey to Sheerness, Marks Tey to Sudbury...I could continue!

Interestingly, Marks Tey - Sudbury used to be a secondary through route, but the closure programme truncated it into a branch.

If you were building a network from scratch, you would probably build mainly through routes, but some towns just aren't geographically suited to through routes, such as Sheerness.
 

coppercapped

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Was it the BTC's and RE's job to formulate Government policy or to implement it?

The problem is that after 1948 the policy direction from above was little more than a vacuum with a default setting of carry on as before as the only guide.
When I joined one of the largest manufacturers of personal computers I was told at my interview in California by the Vice-President of the group that I was joining, "Coppercapped, ask for forgiveness, not permission".

As you rightly observe there was a policy vacuum at the very highest levels so any action short of promoting de-nationalisation would have been acceptable. Top management and Directors have enough on their plates without being presented with additional problems - so if anyone could have come along and said they could reduce the cost base or increase receipts, or both, they would have been welcomed with open arms.
 

muddythefish

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The only whine is from you.

And as I've explained before, I will never own a nazi-staff car (BMW) owing to their appalling behaviour on many levels.

There's nothing wrong with "nazi-staff cars" as it happens, only the people who drive them. Methinks the Earls Barton whinger doth protest too much.
 

A0wen

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There's nothing wrong with "nazi-staff cars" as it happens, only the people who drive them. Methinks the Earls Barton whinger doth protest too much.

If you're OK with a company which wilfully used slave labour during WW2 then spent over 50 years denying it until they realised in their centenary year they probably ought to apologise- far too late, and much later than other companies and a company which asset stripped Rover Group - which it did as when Ford took over the Land Rover factories they found dilapidations dating back the entirety of BMW's ownership, then that speaks more about your moral position than mine.
 

The Ham

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If you're OK with a company which wilfully used slave labour during WW2 then spent over 50 years denying it until they realised in their centenary year they probably ought to apologise- far too late, and much later than other companies and a company which asset stripped Rover Group - which it did as when Ford took over the Land Rover factories they found dilapidations dating back the entirety of BMW's ownership, then that speaks more about your moral position than mine.

Not wanting to drag the conversation off topic too far; how does your moral position cope with buying sugar from cane? (Which may not be easy to identify when it's in another product, for instance cake).

Other difficulties could include the purchase of chocolate, bananas, clothing, shoes, technology, etc.
 

DPWH

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The title of this thread is wrong. It should say "If you had been controlling TRoBR, what would have you done?" - a third conditional, not a second.
 

ac6000cw

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There's nothing wrong with "nazi-staff cars" as it happens, only the people who drive them. Methinks the Earls Barton whinger doth protest too much.
If you're OK with a company which wilfully used slave labour during WW2 then spent over 50 years denying it until they realised in their centenary year they probably ought to apologise- far too late, and much later than other companies and a company which asset stripped Rover Group - which it did as when Ford took over the Land Rover factories they found dilapidations dating back the entirety of BMW's ownership, then that speaks more about your moral position than mine.

Cool it guys - this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread...
 

A0wen

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Cool it guys - this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread...
Fair point.

The actual problem is muddythefish advocates reopenings that even Holman F Stephens in his prime would have shied away from buying......
 
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