In cab aircon & driver concentration/fatigue.

[theageofthetra]

As someone who is starting a driving career I am curious as to which major classes of EMU units have in cab a/c (even if the pax areas don't)
I remember some time back reading an article on how heat has a detrimental effect on the concentration/fatigue levels of a delivery driver and leads to an aggressive rather than defensive driving style. The tests found that the costs of retrofitting an electrically powered a/c system in the vans/trucks were offset by the fuel saved by the more defensive driving style and the lower drag because the windows weren't open on long highway journeys. Before anyone says, modern electric a/c pumps as opposed to old engine pulley driven systems have about as much effect on fuel economy as driving on full beam. I was living in the US at the time and I think it was done by one of the big parcel delivery firms - UPS/Fedex etc ? Of course there are far greater extremes of temperature in the US than here but long hot spells are not uncommon in London.

Over to those with driving experience with thoughts re trains?

 

[A-driver]

A lot of trains now have some sort of air con fitted or retrofitted in the cabs. I can only speak for those I have signed but 455/456/377/321/317/313 all have air con. 365s have a cab cooling system but it's not air con.

As regards to fatigue- it's down to you as a driver to monitor yourself. If the cab is too hot for you are you are concerned about maintaining concentration then you are perfectly entitled to refuse to take the train. It can be very difficult to do, especially 3 mins before departure with 900 passengers already on board but if you have an incident and try blaming it on the heat then they will just tell you that you should have refused to drive it.

This time of year air con faults are very common and trains do get cancelled because of it. Just remember that it is down to you to decide what is too hot to manage concentration and fatigue.

 

[O L Leigh]

In actual fact, Cl317s also have cab cooling rather than A/C. I know it may be labelled up as A/C but I was told under good authority that the label is incorrect. This explains why you always got a horrible damp smell every time you turned it on. Frankly I preferred to leave it switched off unless it was desperately hot. I'd just run with the cab windows open instead, although I then have to be careful not to miss the AWS through being deafened.

I believe the Cl315s have proper A/C though.

Driver concentration can be affected by many things, not just ambient temperature. Dehydration can be a big problem at this time of year, so it's always a good idea to carry a bottle of something with you so that you don't dry out completely.

O L Leigh

 

[LowLevel]

As a guard, the 15x units I work are all crap. 158s theoretically have air cooling but it rarely works anywhere near effectively. 153s are just appalling with rubbish windows and nothing else.

 

[Monty]

The 455s have had air con fitted but it can only ever be turned on at the end where the driver has his key on. If it's a busy train and the guard is stuck in the middle/read cab(s) he has to make do without. Still not has bad as the passenger saloons...

 

[theageofthetra]

Good point re the guards area. Should really have included you & any rail workers on board in the thread title (mods feel free to change). I will be in a DOO world so hadn't really considered that aspect.

 

[notadriver]

We don't have 'guards' areas on trains in my TOC. The cabs are meant for stowing personal equipment and on board staff are expected to roam the train.

 

[Monty]

We don't have 'guards' areas on trains in my TOC. The cabs are meant for stowing personal equipment and on board staff are expected to roam the train.

Bit difficult with a 8 car 455 into Waterloo that's full and standing during the morning peak.

 

[physics34]

air con only in southern 455s???

Its cab cooling in 456s not air con.

I find the Air con can actually cause fatigue due to the whirling sound it makes in some cabs. Its actually quite loud.

If its a boiling hot day though you can cope with the whirling sound!

 

[millemille]

A 365s have a cab cooling system but it's not air con.

It most definitely is cab air conditioning fitted to the 365's. The condensor is behind the smiley face grille between the headlights and the compressor is under the seats in the saloon against the cab back wall on the 2nd man side.

I was HSBC's 365 fleet support engineer when it was fitted.

 

[A-driver]

It most definitely is cab air conditioning fitted to the 365's. The condensor is behind the smiley face grille between the headlights and the compressor is under the seats in the saloon against the cab back wall on the 2nd man side.



I was HSBC's 365 fleet support engineer when it was fitted.

Well I can assure you that it isn't there now! Hornsey, the traction manuals and management at FCC have all stated that. The reason that they stated that is that it is pathetic. It does not cool the cabs down at all compared with the rest of the fleet. Complaints about the air con not reducing the temperature led to them stating that the system is cab cooling and not air conditioning like the 313/317s have and rather than cool the cab temperature the 365 system is designed to reduce the temperature to about 3degrees under external temp at a time.

 

[pemma]

If the cab is too hot for you are you are concerned about maintaining concentration then you are perfectly entitled to refuse to take the train.

Is there any legal requirement for a maximum temperature? For office based jobs you can't break the law by making someone work in a very hot office but can by making someone work in a very cold office.

 

[A-driver]

Is there any legal requirement for a maximum temperature? For office based jobs you can't break the law by making someone work in a very hot office but can by making someone work in a very cold office.

There is no legal max, what you say about a legal minimum is correct.

With trains, it's down to the individual and control recognise this. Often if a driver refuses to take a train due to excessive heat control will swap it and give it to another driver. This can seem that they are trying to cover up the issue rather than fix the train but infact it's because other people will see the temperature as more acceptable.

Quite a few drivers carry a thermometer as it gives more back up to say to control 'I can't take this train, the cab is 28degrees' rather than 'it's too hot' but it is purely an individual decision for drivers to make.

It is a known issue at many companies-FCC are currently trailing windscreen blockers and a new film on the side windows of 365s. Issue is getting it all checked off as it can interfere with viewing monitors and possibly distort signal colour.

 

[Western Lord]

London Midland Class 323's are currently having air con fitted to the cabs at Soho depot. There have been quite a few problems with the first installation.

 

[Beveridges]

This brings me to another important point.

14X and 15X units do not have in cab air con so the driver is forced to leave the cab side windows open at all times. Without doubt a Pacer or Sprinter cab with the windows fully open is a very noisy environment. Could it lead to hearing damage?

As far as I know, protecting the ears with ear plugs while driving is not allowed.

Another point is that the cabs are still hot with the windows open; the windows are ineffective with too little breeze. A hot and very loud environment is not going to be good for concentration levels to say the least.

Another important point to make is that pacer/sprinter windows

 

[BestWestern]

This brings me to another important point.

14X and 15X units do not have in cab air con so the driver is forced to leave the cab side windows open at all times. Without doubt a Pacer or Sprinter cab with the windows fully open is a very noisy environment. Could it lead to hearing damage?

As far as I know, protecting the ears with ear plugs while driving is not allowed.

Another point is that the cabs are still hot with the windows open; the windows are ineffective with too little breeze. A hot and very loud environment is not going to be good for concentration levels to say the least.

Another important point to make is that pacer/sprinter windows

FGW have cab air con units fitted to all of their Sprinter fleet (and 143s I believe). Rather ironically it is fitted to the 158 cabs while much of the saloon a/c is knackered.

Any unit running with just cabside windows open will be very hot indeed, very little air.is brought into the cab that way.

 

[A-driver]

This brings me to another important point.

14X and 15X units do not have in cab air con so the driver is forced to leave the cab side windows open at all times. Without doubt a Pacer or Sprinter cab with the windows fully open is a very noisy environment. Could it lead to hearing damage?

As far as I know, protecting the ears with ear plugs while driving is not allowed.

Another point is that the cabs are still hot with the windows open; the windows are ineffective with too little breeze. A hot and very loud environment is not going to be good for concentration levels to say the least.

Another important point to make is that pacer/sprinter windows

I can't see it leading to hearing damage. It's really not that loud to run around at 100mph with windows open, even through tunnels, so I can't see a 75mph unit being too loud. It is loud but not loud enough to be uncomfortable.

The biggest issue we have is in 317s with drivers missing the AWS in tunnels as it's too quiet compared to the noise with windows open.

 

[Beveridges]

Dont forget Pacers and Sprinters are far louder than EMU's.

Typically FGW gets air con fitted to their Sprinters while the North struggles on without it.

 

[A-driver]

Dont forget Pacers and Sprinters are far louder than EMU's.

Typically FGW gets air con fitted to their Sprinters while the North struggles on without it.

They still add not anywhere near loud enough to cause hearing damage.

 

[pemma]

They still add not anywhere near loud enough to cause hearing damage.

Try going on a Pacer between Stockport and Navigation Road which has the windows open. When it goes around the curvy track Skelton Junction (which is more curvy going away from Stockport than towards it) you have 2 minutes of squealing at the same volume you'd expect at a rock festival. Some people moan about Pacer squealing leaving Lincoln but having been on a Pacer leaving Lincoln what you get there is a fraction of the noise you get at Skelton Junction and also the squealing only lasts about 20 seconds.

The trains with air conditioning are quietest in the summer. Even if you're on an EMU you can still pass noisy diesels and high speed trains on the adjacent tracks.

 

[455driver]

FGW have cab air con units fitted to all of their Sprinter fleet (and 143s I believe). Rather ironically it is fitted to the 158 cabs while much of the saloon a/c is knackered.

Any unit running with just cabside windows open will be very hot indeed, very little air.is brought into the cab that way.

An open cab window will actually be sucking the air out of the cab (simple aerodynamics), the air to replace it will be sucked into the cab from the saloon through the gaps around the cab door etc so the open cab window will actually be benefitting the passengers.

 

[SPADTrap]

An open cab window will actually be sucking the air out of the cab (simple aerodynamics), the air to replace it will be sucked into the cab from the saloon through the gaps around the cab door etc so the open cab window will actually be benefitting the passengers.

Urggh. I won't be opening my windows on 317s when I start then!!

 

[driver_m]

I can't see it leading to hearing damage. It's really not that loud to run around at 100mph with windows open, even through tunnels, so I can't see a 75mph unit being too loud. It is loud but not loud enough to be uncomfortable.

The biggest issue we have is in 317s with drivers missing the AWS in tunnels as it's too quiet compared to the noise with windows open.

I'd agree with that. I can leave the window open to about 80 on a 390 without it being uncomfortable but after that it has to be shut.

(And to the o/p, air con is a godsend in a 390, it is like a greenhouse if it isn't working, other drivers may be surprised to hear that 221 a/c is much better though, probably the only thing that is better in comparison)
Are some non a/c units bearable in summer? Never drove any BR emu's, only AC loco's. 87's were surprisingly Ok even on hot days. The built in drafts probably helped!

 

[TDK]

An open cab window will actually be sucking the air out of the cab (simple aerodynamics), the air to replace it will be sucked into the cab from the saloon through the gaps around the cab door etc so the open cab window will actually be benefitting the passengers.

Not if you open both, I drive 150's quite a bit, same design as a 455 and with both windows open you do get a nice cool through draught but if your theory is correct then if you have a unit with saloon aircon and not in the cab opening one window should cool the cab down a little.

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem I always found with the Cl317 cab (identical again to Cl150s and Cl455s) was that if you only opened one window you would get a sort of "air hammer" effect that is both deafening and makes the panels vibrate. The answer was to open the other window halfway which seemed to cancel out whatever aerodynamic effect was causing it. Then again, maybe it's only Cl317 drivers that experience it because they go that little bit faster.

But yes, whatever the case, the normal airflow does seem to be from the saloon into the cab. It happens all the time when in motion whether the cab windows are open or closed. It can be nice sometimes because you can smell whatever is going on directly behind the cab, especially if someone has nice perfume on. Ha ha!!

O L Leigh

 

[SPADTrap]

The problem I always found with the Cl317 cab (identical again to Cl150s and Cl455s) was that if you only opened one window you would get a sort of "air hammer" effect that is both deafening and makes the panels vibrate. The answer was to open the other window halfway which seemed to cancel out whatever aerodynamic effect was causing it. Then again, maybe it's only Cl317 drivers that experience it because they go that little bit faster.

But yes, whatever the case, the normal airflow does seem to be from the saloon into the cab. It happens all the time when in motion whether the cab windows are open or closed. It can be nice sometimes because you can smell whatever is going on directly behind the cab, especially if someone has nice perfume on. Ha ha!!

O L Leigh

But not if you're on the vomit comet at night and someones succumbed to the effects!

 

[455driver]

Not if you open both, I drive 150's quite a bit, same design as a 455 and with both windows open you do get a nice cool through draught but if your theory is correct then if you have a unit with saloon aircon and not in the cab opening one window should cool the cab down a little.

might try that one, I only ever open the drivers side window and have never thought about opening the second man side window.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But not if you're on the vomit comet at night and someones succumbed to the effects!

One would be a quiet night!

Done it once with 4 coaches and there were 5 people ill, one in each coach plus the extra one all over the door from the cab into the saloon.

This is the reason I carry a cheap deodorant around in my work bag.

 

[A-driver]

might try that one, I only ever open the drivers side window and have never thought about opening the second man side window.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




One would be a quiet night!



Done it once with 4 coaches and there were 5 people ill, one in each coach plus the extra one all over the door from the cab into the saloon.



This is the reason I carry a cheap deodorant around in my work bag.

If goi at high speed keep your bag, jacket, lunch and any other stuff clear of the second mans side otherwise when doing 100mph through a tunnel you have to powerlessly watch your fleece fly off the hook and out the window...

 

[jon0844]

Some of the tunnels along the ECML seem to do a very good job of drawing in the smells from faster passing trains with no retention tanks (i.e. the HSTs) which is perhaps another benefit of aircon.

 

[hedpe]

Well I can assure you that it isn't there now! Hornsey, the traction manuals and management at FCC have all stated that. The reason that they stated that is that it is pathetic. It does not cool the cabs down at all compared with the rest of the fleet. Complaints about the air con not reducing the temperature led to them stating that the system is cab cooling and not air conditioning like the 313/317s have and rather than cool the cab temperature the 365 system is designed to reduce the temperature to about 3degrees under external temp at a time.

To add to the confusion, when i asked this at work today, i was told that no FCC units (save for the 377s?) have air conditioning. To be air conditioning, the system would need to take into consideration the temperature of the cab, but apart from that, the general principle (ie removing hot air) is the same.