Inadequate Metrolink ticketing facilities at Manchester Victoria

[yorksrob]

It's not done on the tram! It's basically the same concept as the DLR; tap in and out at the stations.

I might have missed it, but I only noticed the ticket machine.

 

[Bald Rick]

I might have missed it, but I only noticed the ticket machine.

The touch in / touch out readers are typically on a post by the ticket machines and along the platforms, usually conspicuously so near platform entrances. See below for what they look like - this is St Peter’s Sq., courtesy of googlemaps streetview. (I’ve drawn the red halo, it’s not had Ready Brek!)

 

[etr221]

Is this satire? If not, I am very confused by your post; contactless makes this genuinely easier than it ever has been!

No, it's not satire.

Contactless may make it easy - but can I use it, and if so how?

If I come out of the station to catch a tram, what do I need to do pay the correct fare? Is it the same as the last time I did so (at a different station, on a different system)?

As I said, in byegone days, it was easy - the same everywhere (at least until you went abroad) - you got on, someone said 'fare, please', you paid, and were given a ticket...

 

[stuu]

No, it's not satire.

Contactless may make it easy - but can I use it, and if so how?

If I come out of the station to catch a tram, what do I need to do pay the correct fare? Is it the same as the last time I did so (at a different station, on a different system)?

As I said, in byegone days, it was easy - the same everywhere (at least until you went abroad) - you got on, someone said 'fare, please', you paid, and were given a ticket...

You mean like when you had no idea what the policy would be about giving change, or that the driver just wouldn't have any, or having to go to a shop and buy a packet of polos or something to ensure you had some change. Or bizarre systems where they only took coins for an exact fare of 63p (not lately obviously!) but overpayments are fine... contactless solves all of those

 

[etr221]

You mean like when you had no idea what the policy would be about giving change, or that the driver just wouldn't have any, or having to go to a shop and buy a packet of polos or something to ensure you had some change. Or bizarre systems where they only took coins for an exact fare of 63p (not lately obviously!) but overpayments are fine... contactless solves all of those

Those sort of things are when the rot started (if I can put it that way) - I'm thinking further back, when you were (almost certainly) paying a conductor, not the driver, and, certainly up to point, change would be given. And with a few shillings in assorted change, you probably did have the right money.

If contactless is the answer, can I use it on whichever system I'm using next, just like the one (and in the same way) I used last?

If the answer to that question isn't 'yes, you can', then it isn't, and the problem still exists...

 

[edwin_m]

Those sort of things are when the rot started (if I can put it that way) - I'm thinking further back, when you were (almost certainly) paying a conductor, not the driver, and, certainly up to point, change would be given. And with a few shillings in assorted change, you probably did have the right money.

If contactless is the answer, can I use it on whichever system I'm using next, just like the one (and in the same way) I used last?

If the answer to that question isn't 'yes, you can', then it isn't, and the problem still exists...

Not knowing what the fare might be is equally a problem if you pay a conductor or at a ticket machine - unless you do some research in advance, you won't know until you come to pay. The same is true with contactless, but it's much quicker and unless your bank account is suffering serious withdrawal symptoms you know you'll be able to pay quickly and get on with your journey.

Contactless often also allows some form of capping (I'm not familiar with what applies on Metrolink). This avoids the question of whether you're doing enough journeys with that operator that day for a day ticket to be cheaper.

 

[plugwash]

contactless makes this genuinely easier than it ever has been!

The problem is there is no consistency as to how you pay on different systems. Some systems you touch in and out at the station with your contactless card at the station (Manchester metrolink, London rail/tube/dlr), some systems you only touch in with your contactless card (London trams, nottingham trams), some systems you board the tram and wait for the conductor (sheffield supertram, blackpool trams, west midlands metro). Some systems (national rail in most of the country, tyne and wear metro) you still have to buy a ticket or a specific smartcard before boarding.

If you follow the practices from your local system on a system in another city (or even sometimes the same city) you may get overcharged or even end up facing a penalty fare.

And to further add to the confusion, the metrolink readers (which allow contactless pay as you go) look virtually identical to the readers at hnational rail stations in greater Manchester which are only for use with national rail smartcards.

Last time I used Metrolink, I used contactless and it was far easier than the days of giving someone some money for a ticket.

I don't think metrolink has ever used humans to sell tickets. It's always been machines.

Contactless often also allows some form of capping (I'm not familiar with what applies on Metrolink). This avoids the question of whether you're doing enough journeys with that operator that day for a day ticket to be cheaper.

Metrolink does have capping, but only for the metrolink not intermodal. If you are doing a mixed-mode journey within the TFGM area at off-peak timesyou may be better off buying a mixed-mode day ticket.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I used contactless on Metrolink for the first time last week, having always used paper tickets in the past. The journey was only from Victoria to Deansgate for an onward train connection, but I wasn't certain if I would be returning the same way. In the end that's what I did, and sure enough the system deducted £1.90 for a Zone1 One-day Off-peak Travelcard rather than £1.40 for each of the single journeys. I would be quite happy to use this in future, for the occasional journeys I make.

 

[plugwash]

I don't know what your particular journey was, but another alternative for those travelling by rail and wanting to use metrolink in the city center is to split your rail journey at a station in the TFGM area.

 

[scragend]

Or bizarre systems where they only took coins for an exact fare of 63p

This reminds me of how the Rome metro was (presumably it's not still like this - I haven't been for nearly 20 years). If I remember correctly the flat fare was 77 cents, the machine only took coins and would accept overpayments but only if it was able to give the exact change - and the smallest coin it would dispense as change was 5 cents. The moment you went over the 77 cents, if the machine couldn't give change for the current credit, it would reject the transaction. If you put a 1 euro coin in, for example, because it couldn't do 23 cents change it would just spit it back at you. There was nothing to tell you this, and the basic two-line screen on the machine was only in Italian. Most of the machines had also been vandalised to some extent or were just generally very scruffy so it was hard to work out what was going on.

I eventually worked out that unless I had exactly 77 cents (which I rarely did), the way to do it was to put in a 2 cent coin first and then a 1 euro coin, making €1.02 and the machine would give you 25 cents change. Who on earth thought that system up?

I hope they have contactless these days

 

[johntea]

How do inspectors know you've 'tapped in', does the card number get registered on some sort of database they can query? (Also wonder how that would work in terms of my Chase card which doesn't have a number although probably does behind the scenes!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do inspectors know you've 'tapped in', does the card number get registered on some sort of database they can query?

Yes. Well, sort of. I believe it is done in the back end - if you present a card to an inspector that wasn't tapped in a Standard Fare is automatically charged to it.

(Also wonder how that would work in terms of my Chase card which doesn't have a number although probably does behind the scenes!)

It does have a number, it's just not printed on it.

 

[skyhigh]

I might have missed it, but I only noticed the ticket machine.

The touch in / touch out readers are typically on a post by the ticket machines and along the platforms, usually conspicuously so near platform entrances. See below for what they look like - this is St Peter’s Sq., courtesy of googlemaps streetview. (I’ve drawn the red halo, it’s not had Ready Brek!)

Here's a photo of Manchester Victoria. In this image alone I can see 16 contactless readers. There are several more out of view, including a handful as you come down the steps from the main station.

 

[507020]

The tram takes about 10 minutes and it takes about 20 minutes to walk. So if you have to wait 5 minutes there isn't much of a difference. When I've been in a rush I normally walk fast or jog. If I have a ticket valid on the tram then I might get it if it coming soon. In that case I usually get the first one that goes as far as Market Street then walk or jog the rest.

The only journey the Metrolink is unusable for is Victoria - Piccadilly. Every time I’ve attempted it in either direction I’ve missed my connection. I’ll use it from Exchange Square to either Victoria or Deansgate-Castlefield, or Market Street to either Piccadilly or Deansgate-Castlefield, but the section through Shudehill should frankly be ripped up since something always goes wrong there. I have held this view since a tram I was on hit someone there (which was the individual’s fault for running in front of the tram) and I have walked from Piccadilly to Victoria exactly once, after being repeatedly told to and will not be doing so again.

Well, it can't be that prominent. Plus, how do you tell it how far you want to go !

They are much more prominent than the ticket machines, just because of the number of them.

There is also the free bus (route 2, or maybe the longer route 3 if it turns up first).

The free bus should certainly be discontinued immediately as it is the least useful thing I have ever encountered and always runs empty.

Whatever the merits of TfGM's contactless system, the big problem (if you don't) is knowing that it exists, and when/where and how to use it... A (very) quick look at TfGM's website didn't strike that working out how to use (and pay for) their services was exactly simple.

How? The TfGM website has a very good instructional video explaining exactly how to correctly use Contactless on the Metrolink.

I did actually use contactless on the ticket machine. There didn't appear to be anywhere on the tram to wave ones card at (like the pad on a bus cab).

Notably TfL ticket machines do not accept contactless for obvious reasons, however you can not yet use a Railcard discount on Contactless.

I eventually worked out that unless I had exactly 77 cents (which I rarely did), the way to do it was to put in a 2 cent coin first and then a 1 euro coin, making €1.02 and the machine would give you 25 cents change. Who on earth thought that system up?

So the machine has a supply of €0.02 coins from people doing this which it refuses to give as change which would have solved the problem?

How do inspectors know you've 'tapped in', does the card number get registered on some sort of database they can query? (Also wonder how that would work in terms of my Chase card which doesn't have a number although probably does behind the scenes!)

It is backend processing. You must present the card you tapped in with to a handheld device carried by the ticket inspectors and if it is found that you did not tap in, you will be charged £45. You must still then tap out.

My numberless Chase card is banned from the Metrolink for refusing to pay such a £45 fine, so I have to use another card. I had forgotten to tap out before tapping back in again later, meaning I had effectively only tapped out.

 

[yorksrob]

View attachment 124218
Here's a photo of Manchester Victoria. In this image alone I can see 16 contactless readers. There are several more out of view, including a handful as you come down the steps from the main station.

Well, it's not exactly clear what they are. It's notable that all the out of towners like myself were crowding around the ticket machines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, it's not exactly clear what they are. It's notable that all the out of towners like myself were crowding around the ticket machines.

Perhaps better signage is needed.

"Quick hop to Piccadilly? Not brought the kids? Use contactless! Just tap your card on the yellow machine at each end and you'll be charged the correct fare."

 

[Bald Rick]

It's notable that all the out of towners like myself were crowding around the ticket machines.

How do you know it was out of towners?

 

[alistairlees]

How do you know it was out of towners?

Or "all"?

 

[Whisky Papa]

I don't know what your particular journey was, but another alternative for those travelling by rail and wanting to use metrolink in the city center is to split your rail journey at a station in the TFGM area.

Assuming that was in relation to my post, the journey was Todmorden to Urmston. The problem on my particular journey with splitting it is I would have needed an Anytime return for the TfGM bit (Rochdale to Urmston) as I was almost certain to be travelling back in the evening peak. The through ticket from Todmorden is valid from 0930 with no evening peak restriction, so in this case it was far cheaper even if I did use Metrolink in both directions.

However, in many cases your advice is quite correct, and I had many regular passengers from Todmorden who did just that. Very unusually, the booking office at Todmorden was closed when I started my journey, so buying the through ticket from the TVM was also a good deal easier!

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps better signage is needed.

"Quick hop to Piccadilly? Not brought the kids? Use contactless! Just tap your card on the yellow machine at each end and you'll be charged the correct fare."

Or just have an operative there talking to and assisting people (as the NR proposals about closing ticket offices seem to suggest).

On the bus, you tell the driver where you want to go, the price pops up and you tap your card. I'd have to study the reader on metrolink to see how it worked.

How do you know it was out of towners?

From the conversations they were having.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or just have an operative there talking to and assisting people (as the NR proposals about closing ticket offices seem to suggest).

Metrolink has always been a self-service system, like for instance the German systems.

On the bus, you tell the driver where you want to go, the price pops up and you tap your card. I'd have to study the reader on metrolink to see how it worked.

It works the same as London, which will be a lot of the visitors. You tap in and out and it works out what to charge you. You don't need to understand it.

Buses will slowly move that way, because having a chat with the driver costs time, and time costs money. Though buses aren't good at signing it either, I used a Diamond bus in the Midlands last week on which I had no idea it was an option until I sat down and saw a small poster badly explaining it.

 

[plugwash]

Perhaps better signage is needed.

"Quick hop to Piccadilly? Not brought the kids? Use contactless! Just tap your card on the yellow machine at each end and you'll be charged the correct fare."

I'm fairly sure I have seen advertising signs for contactless touch in/touch out, I think there may even be mention of it on the ticket machines. I don't think there is much if-any marking on the readers themselves though.

 

[Watershed]

Whatever the merits of TfGM's contactless system, the big problem (if you don't) is knowing that it exists, and when/where and how to use it... A (very) quick look at TfGM's website didn't strike that working out how to use (and pay for) their services was exactly simple.

Although to be fair, whether they are any worse (or better) than anywhere else is doubtful. There is a great expectation amongst such operators that everyone is a local who knows how the local sytem works - but that's not true: and as each city does its own thing, visitors get totally confused.

If I get off the train, exit the station and go to ride the tram, what do I do? Are there obvious signs to tell me? (Memo to self: next time I'm doing this, take a look) If I actually want a bus, is it very different?

Sigh - it used to be so simple (and standard) - you got on, and somebody took your money and gave you a ticket...

To be fair, the signage at the entrance to Metrolink stops makes it pretty clear that:

a) You need to pay before you board
b) You can use contactless

Obviously, if you're in a rush, you may still miss the signs. But it's hard to see how they could make it much easier for a first-time user to work out what to do - and the fact that other systems/cities do it differently is hardly something within their control.

 

[markwcel]

Im an "out of towner" and I soon figured out that contactless is accepted and how to use it before getting on the tram

 

[yorksrob]

Im an "out of towner" and I soon figured out that contactless is accepted and how to use it before getting on the tram

It's a shame it wasn't you in front of me when I was trying to buy a ticket instead then.

 

[Accura]

The introduction of tap in tap out is one of the best things Metrolink has ever done. There was plenty of occasions before it was introduced where I missed a tram due to queuing at the ticket machines. Now the whole experience is incredibly easy. For out of towners its even easier... one of the most common problems visitors to Manchester seem to have on the tram is figuring out what type of zone ticket they need to buy - this eliminates that problem.

TfGM push it very hard with posters at both stops and on the trams, as well as announcements. I use the met a good few times a week and frequently get revenue inspectors coming on board - not once have I had an issue with my card being checked mid-journey.

 

[plugwash]

To be fair, the signage at the entrance to Metrolink stops makes it pretty clear that:

I'll have to take a look next time I'm at a metrolink station. I looked on google streetview but their imagary predated the introduction of contactless PAYG.

Something to remember is that contactless PAYG on metrolink is a relatively new thing. It was introduced just over a year ago. I would imagine in situations like the OP's there are probablly quite a few people who aren't regular users but aren't first-timers either who are just going to assume the system works the same way as when they last used it.

 

[Starmill]

I'll have to take a look next time I'm at a metrolink station. I looked on google streetview but their imagary predated the introduction of contactless PAYG.

Something to remember is that contactless PAYG on metrolink is a relatively new thing. It was introduced just over a year ago. I would imagine in situations like the OP's there are probablly quite a few people who aren't regular users but aren't first-timers either who are just going to assume the system works the same way as when they last used it.

It started in July 2019 so only people who haven't used the system at all in more than three years will be particularly surprised.

 

[Chester1]

The introduction of tap in tap out is one of the best things Metrolink has ever done. There was plenty of occasions before it was introduced where I missed a tram due to queuing at the ticket machines. Now the whole experience is incredibly easy. For out of towners its even easier... one of the most common problems visitors to Manchester seem to have on the tram is figuring out what type of zone ticket they need to buy - this eliminates that problem.

TfGM push it very hard with posters at both stops and on the trams, as well as announcements. I use the met a good few times a week and frequently get revenue inspectors coming on board - not once have I had an issue with my card being checked mid-journey.

The introduction of zonal ticketing was an earlier part of the same scheme. Its has been a huge improvement. The bus network will be integrated into the same system in the long term. The number of TVMs hasn't changed so there are shorter queues.

 

[Steddenm]

They announce on the trams "don't forget to tap out" if you tapped in using contactless.