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Incident at Wandsworth Common 07/08/16

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Flying Snail

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I went on a class 442 this afternoon. The windows of the slam doors in the middle of the third carriage were fully open on both sides (easily big enough to lean out of) for the entire journey between Brighton and London Victoria. I thought that Govia would have learnt from this incident and ensured that the windows were locked shut.

Maybe dial back on the tabloid style outrage.

This is a terrible accident and tragic for all involved but a little perspective needs to be applied. This is an exceedingly rare occurrence across the network, one that is statistically unlikely to happen again in the remaining period of 442 operation on GX or indeed all droplight fitted stock prior to 2020 when it appears the last will cease to be within regulations.

As someone who spent a good proportion of their adolescence with their head out of the window of various stock at home and in the UK without ever coming close to suffering any injury my opinion on it hasn't really changed. Yes it carries some risk, there is always the possibility of contact with a close object but it is a rare exception that anything would be close enough to make contact and it is not that dangerous if you are careful.

Maybe the aircon had failed.

There are only two droplights on each 442 unit and one is inaccessible if the guards van is locked. All the powered passenger doors have locked windows that can be opened with a key but they are too shallow to fit a head out of.
 
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tsr

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I went on a class 442 this afternoon. The windows of the slam doors in the middle of the third carriage were fully open on both sides (easily big enough to lean out of) for the entire journey between Brighton and London Victoria. I thought that Govia would have learnt from this incident and ensured that the windows were locked shut.

You can't lock those windows shut. Only one should be accessible to the public anyway. You'd have to physically modify the train to get them to lock shut.

When guards are using the door for dispatching, do they lean out the window to make sure the train leaves the platform with no incident or do they have the door open?

The train safety check is carried out, the local slam door is closed, interlock is checked and the driver is given the ready-to-start signal. The window should then be used to achieve a good lookout but leaning out slightly would be according to the conductor's discretion as to whether it was safe. Southern conductors are generally not permitted to dispatch with a local door open and most stock does not allow this anyway. This is to prevent late runners boarding a moving train, which is not only deemed unsafe but also in contravention of the Rule Book.
 

RobShipway

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I want to give my sympathy to the family and friends of that the lad that was killed in this incident.
 

XDM

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As a track engineer, I can assist:

Normally, we try to provide 'full normal' clearances, where everything would be at least 1.625mm away from the nearest running edge.
This can be reduced to 1.624m (yep, 1mm different, great standards!) for things less than 2m long and signals, to 1.470m for OLE masts, and 1.364m for signals located between two tracks with insufficient space for normal clearances.


This lengthy & highly informative post & an immediately previous one are the reason why this forum is a gem & well worth reading - Experts who know their stuff & share it. Facts from experts are so valuable. It seems the question to be asked is are there any structures that do not meet the criteria our good posters set out. Clearly an enquiry will reveal that. I do remember a 4 sub on the down slow between Clapham & earlsfield with a door swinging wide open all the way. We observed it from an open window. It did not touch the 2 max Bulleid width 4 Subs we passed the other way. It is relatively straight track.
 
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yorkie

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I went on a class 442 this afternoon. The windows of the slam doors in the middle of the third carriage were fully open on both sides (easily big enough to lean out of) for the entire journey between Brighton and London Victoria. I thought that Govia would have learnt from this incident and ensured that the windows were locked shut.
How would they do that? They are not lockable, and there is only one such window per 5 car unit in an area of the train the public can access.

And are you aware that there are 4 opening windows per coach on most Mk3 coaches of the type used by many long distance train companies?
 

class387

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A very sad incident. Thoughts are with family and friends.
 

Darandio

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How would they do that? They are not lockable, and there is only one such window per 5 car unit in an area of the train the public can access.

Not sure if anyone else has been watching 'The Wright Stuff' on Channel 5 this morning? Although the discussion is about the strikes, this incident did come up.

A caller, James from the West Midlands who claimed to be a Southern conductor has said that if this was his train, he would have locked the window off before departure and the incident would not have happened on his train....
 

superkev

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As a track engineer, I can assist:

Normally, we try to provide 'full normal' clearances, where everything would be at least 1.625mm away from the nearest running edge.
This can be reduced to 1.624m (yep, 1mm different, great standards!) for things less than 2m long and signals, to 1.470m for OLE masts, and 1.364m for signals located between two tracks with insufficient space for normal clearances.

If clearances are reduced below those levels, we then go into calculations of each train vs each piece of infrastructure so we go into the lists of stock that are 'cleared' for a particular route.

We would try to provide a normal minimum clearance, from a train to a fixed anything, of 100mm.
This sounds low, but has some caveats:
1) This is from the kinematic envelope of the train, not from the static profile. In other words, we use software to determine the train's maximum ever size, taking into account all possibilities such as suspension failed, tilt (where fitted) failed, crush laden, empty, in high winds, full range of speeds etc etc - all things which will affect, ever so slightly, where the train will be in any particular passage. There are all added up and a shape produced for each train that is then used for clearance calculations on each pice of track. It's done for each structure, so takes into account the radius, cant and speed.
2) It's less than the normal clearances as given above, and thus requires specific approval at design stage before it's permitted. However, gaining approval is relatively easy and there are a huge number of instances of these clearances in existence all over the network.
3) The software has a lot of tolerances built in, and it's extremely unlikely that they will all ever happen together, so the actual clearance provided is often 30-50mm+ greater than the number that pops out of the software.

There is also a further requirement that, where trains with openable windows run, this be increased to at least 450mm at the height of the window to allow for persons leaning out. This is not mandated though, only a 'where possible'.

If we can't provide that, we can reduce this to a 'reduced clearance' of 50mm. This requires approval that is harder to get, and must be accompanied by a risk assessment and possibly mitigation measures, such as provision of enhanced track and structure monitoring to ensure movements over time do not compromise this further.

If we are still struggling, we can reduce this to 'special reduced clearance' of 25mm. This is hard to get approved and is nearly always only approved on a temporary basis with good risk mitigation measures in place, such as it being a concrete structure next to slab track.

How this relates to when window bars are provided I'm not sure, but I think it's up to each TOC. It's easy for the TOCs to see what clearances exist on any particular route they are planning to run trains along so I think it's up to them to do their own risk assessments of how many tight clearances they will pass, how fast they will be going, how visible they are etc. I'll leave someone from a rolling stock background to clarify that though - I may be wrong.
Thankyou most informative. I belive the LHCS in Cumbria have bars on the Windows due to restricted clearances. How this impacts on train drivers who nationally look out quite a lot I'm unsure.
K
 

Deepgreen

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This lengthy & highly informative post & an immediately previous one are the reason why this forum is a gem & well worth reading - Experts who know their stuff & share it. Facts from experts are so valuable. It seems the question to be asked is are there any structures that do not meet the criteria our good posters set out. Clearly an enquiry will reveal that. I do remember a 4 sub on the down slow between Clapham & earlsfield with a door swinging wide open all the way. We observed it from an open window. It did not touch the 2 max Bulleid width 4 Subs we passed the other way. It is relatively straight track.

I recall many examples of improperly closed doors (or intentionally opened ones!) swinging open from SUBs, EPBs, etc. Obviously, depending on the direction of travel, they would either be forced shut again at speed by the wind, or forced back on their hinges to lie flat against the train. Either way, they would only foul the gauge if, at low speed, they were able to hang at right angles.
 

mr_moo

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No probs. I'm always happy to explain stuff.

To add BTW, the values I gave above refer to 'Upper Sector' clearances, i.e. 1.1m and over above rail level. Below that things can get tighter (think platform edges!) but the trains sway less so it's easier to get closer in safety.
Also, this applies only to Network Rail's railway, not HS1 or any other railways (Nexus etc), although most follow NR's standards anyway.
 

Deepgreen

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No probs. I'm always happy to explain stuff.

To add BTW, the values I gave above refer to 'Upper Sector' clearances, i.e. 1.1m and over above rail level. Below that things can get tighter (think platform edges!) but the trains sway less so it's easier to get closer in safety.
Also, this applies only to Network Rail's railway, not HS1 or any other railways (Nexus etc), although most follow NR's standards anyway.

Yes - very helpful. I have to say that on my journey along the line this morning, I couldn't immediately see any very tight clearance signals, although I did see one post flash by which may not have been a signal/BR (not sure), but which looked very close. However, several of the overbridges before Balham do look very tight.
 
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Personally i think though that they should modify the 442s (and all other locomotive hauled and HST stock) so that the windows are locked shut. It should be fairly easy to modify (they would just need to add a lock to the window and a door handle on the inside).

I think safety should be one of the railways first priority and in 2016 we really shouldnt still have stock this old in service that still have opening windows. I know that the 442s (and other older stock) are being replaced soon but i still think that something should be done until they are replaced.

Surely the railways should be doing everything that they can to prevent this incident from happening again.
 

43074

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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-picture-railway-fan-killed-8591221
Simon Brown, 24, from East Grinstead, West Sussex, suffered a serious head injury after being struck by an oncoming train on Sunday evening

Simon began his railway career aged 18 as an apprentice for Southern - the train firm that operated the Gatwick Express service he was travelling on when he died.


He also volunteered at Bluebell Railway and had recently fulfilled a life-long dream by gaining a job as an engineering technician with Hitachi.


Today, Simon's friends and family paid tribute to a 'lovely' man who would 'help everyone' and 'wasn't reckless'....
The Mirror has been running this story this morning, it appears the deceased had been a Bluebell Railway volunteer for many years, had worked for Southern after starting as an apprentice and was planning to move with his girlfriend to Bristol where he had secured a job with Hitachi.

A tragic accident which should never have happened, my thoughts are with his friends, colleagues and family at this time.
 
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Goatboy

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Personally i think though that they should modify the 442s (and all other locomotive hauled and HST stock) so that the windows are locked shut.

I think this was a tragic accident of the type that is exceptionally rare on our rail network. I cannot recall the last time this happened - it must be decades ago. The fact it is such a rare event must surely demonstrate that the risk of this happening again is not sufficient to justify modifications of the sort you describe.

The railway is, like any mode of transport, a dangerous place. This could happen to people who hang out the window of cars, too - I see no suggestions that car windows should not open.

If incidents of this type continue to happen at the historical rate they've happened then by the time the next one is due there won't be any stock in service with these windows anyway.

As has been previously discussed the degree to which you must lean out of the window in order for such a tragedy to occur would seem far in excess of that anyone is usually likely to look out - evidenced by the low rate of occurrence for this sort of tragic accident.
 
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yorkie

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Personally i think though that they should modify the 442s (and all other locomotive hauled and HST stock) so that the windows are locked shut. It should be fairly easy to modify (they would just need to add a lock to the window and a door handle on the inside).
If it was that easy it would have been done! For the money required, you would save many more lives spent on various other projects. Are you campaigning over other safery issues too?
Surely the railways should be doing everything that they can to prevent this incident from happening again.
Why are you picking on the railways, which have an incredible safety record? No-one seems to care how dangerous some other modes are in comparison! It's utterly bizarre.
 

bramling

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Personally i think though that they should modify the 442s (and all other locomotive hauled and HST stock) so that the windows are locked shut. It should be fairly easy to modify (they would just need to add a lock to the window and a door handle on the inside).

I think safety should be one of the railways first priority and in 2016 we really shouldnt still have stock this old in service that still have opening windows. I know that the 442s (and other older stock) are being replaced soon but i still think that something should be done until they are replaced.

Surely the railways should be doing everything that they can to prevent this incident from happening again.

Care to pay for this yourself?

I'd rather any money went towards level crossing safety. I can avoid any risk from an opening droplight by choosing not to lean out. I can't avoid the risk of a tractor crossing in the path of my train at a UWC.
 

YorkshireBear

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Personally i think though that they should modify the 442s (and all other locomotive hauled and HST stock) so that the windows are locked shut. It should be fairly easy to modify (they would just need to add a lock to the window and a door handle on the inside).

I think safety should be one of the railways first priority and in 2016 we really shouldnt still have stock this old in service that still have opening windows. I know that the 442s (and other older stock) are being replaced soon but i still think that something should be done until they are replaced.

Surely the railways should be doing everything that they can to prevent this incident from happening again.

While your intentions are good (safety).

8 (average) people will die today on UK Roads, and i bet the vast majority of people here will still climb in their car. It is all about perspective.
 

yorksrob

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Also, those opening windows can be a Godsend when the air conditioning packs up. This was a tragic, but very rare accident. If you try to remove all risk from the railway, the product becomes worse and people go back to more dangerous modes of transport.
 
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Deepgreen

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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-picture-railway-fan-killed-8591221

The Mirror has been running this story this morning, it appears the deceased had been a Bluebell Railway volunteer for many years, had worked for Southern after starting as an apprentice and was planning to move with his girlfriend to Bristol where he had secured a job with Hitachi.

A tragic accident which should never have happened, my thoughts are with his friends, colleagues and family at this time.

So, is it confirmed after all that it was another train and not lineside infrastructure, or should we ignore the Mail's reporting on this detail? Judging by the picture early on in the thread I thought the incident had been on the cess side.

The fact that he was a railwayman makes it both more of a wake up call to those who window-hang with the concept that they know what they're doing, and sadder that he was caught out in his 'own' environment.
 
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greaterwest

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Also, those opening windows can be a Godsend when the air conditioning packs up. This was a tragic, but very rare accident. If you try to remove all risk from the railway, the product becomes worse and people go back to more dangerous modes of transport.

I suppose you've never heard of hopper windows before?
 

Waldgrun

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There are only two droplights on each 442 unit and one is inaccessible if the guards van is locked. All the powered passenger doors have locked windows that can be opened with a key but they are too shallow to fit a head out of.

At last! Someone stating the current situation of droplights on the Class 442s, I thought this was the case, but as the last 442 I saw was working for S.W.T. I had wondered if this was still the case, after the refit for use on the Gatwick services. When I knew the units the droplights on power doors only dropped a very small distance, which made it impossible to put ones head out
 
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AlterEgo

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Care to pay for this yourself?

I'd rather any money went towards level crossing safety. I can avoid any risk from an opening droplight by choosing not to lean out. I can't avoid the risk of a tractor crossing in the path of my train at a UWC.

Daft comment.

Level crossing safety includes proofing the crossing from serious misadventure too, you know (sometimes to the point of removing the crossing!).

Since that's what you prefer, perhaps you'll be "paying for it yourself"? :roll:
 
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bramling

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Daft comment.

Level crossing safety includes proofing the crossing from serious misadventure too, you know (sometimes to the point of removing the crossing!).

Since that's what you prefer, perhaps you'll be "paying for it yourself"? :roll:

The more-than-slight difference is that there is rather more potential for carnage involving one or more trains at level crossing, indeed something witnessed multiple times over recent years, to greater or lesser extents.

One person choosing to stick their head out is simply not in the same league in my view.
 

AlterEgo

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The more-than-slight difference is that there is rather more potential for carnage involving one or more trains at level crossing, indeed something witnessed multiple times over recent years, to greater or lesser extents.

One person choosing to stick their head out is simply not in the same league in my view.

It isn't the same risk, no. But it is an incredibly cheap fix, unlike resiting dangerous crossings (many of which are solely for foot passengers, so no mass carnage, but still).
 

2HAP

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I'd rather any money went towards level crossing safety. I can avoid any risk from an opening droplight by choosing not to lean out. I can't avoid the risk of a tractor crossing in the path of my train at a UWC.

What about when the tractor driver has phoned for, and been given permission to, cross the railway line?
 
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