Intention to prosecute

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Mrmkhan

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Hi I am new in this forum. I had a problem . On [Mod note - date removed] I wante to travel from London St pancras to Luton, and for that I had a off peak ticket valid for one month. When I put the into the ticket barrier the gate was not opening, then went to the officer for help who was sitting next to the barrier and explain him the situation. He asked me for my railcard which I gave it him. After that he checked my ticket and told me that this ticket was used before. Then I told with my knowledge I belief I did not use it before. But he did not beleve me finally I ask him if u think that this ticket was used before then if u can cancel it and I can buy a new ticket for my travel as I am outside the station. But he did not allow me to do it, he told me why should I buy another ticket. He took the ticket and my details and told me first capital connect will write a letter to me whether this ticket was used before or not? And he gave me a receipt for my travel. I been waiting longtime now after 2 month in 09 June 2012 I receive a letter from first capital connect " intention to prosecute"
 
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lyndhurst25

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Are you 100% sure that the ticket could not have been used before?
What exactly does the letter say? What are they accusing you of?

Others on here will be able to advise as to the best course of action for you.
 

GadgetMan

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Hi I am new in this forum. I had a problem . On xx 2012 I wante to travel from London St pancras to Luton, and for that I had a off peak ticket valid for one month.
edit the dates out mate, it would make it easy to trace you.

Then I told with my knowledge I belief I did not use it before.
As a guard I come across this regularly. I will ask someone if they have used the ticket before, they will say something like I don't think I have.

Now you either definitely have used a ticket or you haven't. It is one or the other.

The other scenario I'll get is; a friend gave me the ticket, so I don't know if it was previously used.

But he did not beleve me finally I ask him if u think that this ticket was used before then if u can cancel it and I can buy a new ticket for my travel as I am outside the station. But he did not allow me to do it, he told me why should I buy another ticket. He took the ticket and my details and told me first capital connect will write a letter to me whether this ticket was used before or not? And he gave me a receipt for my travel. I been waiting longtime now after 2 month I receive a letter from first capital connect " intention to prosecute"
If the ticket genuinely hasn't been used before then I do not see any reason why you should be prosecuted.

Did the member of railway staff give you a reason for why he believed the ticket had been used?

Did he swipe the ticket through his machine?
Was there a rubbed off previous stamp on the ticket?
Is it possible some ink had transferred onto the ticket after coming into contact with another stamped coupon like the outward portion for example?
 

Mrmkhan

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He swiped the ticket then he told me it was used before but he told me a date when I used it but I was 100% sure I did not travel on that date
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the letter they write I was been stopped and question and wanted to travel without ticket but I had a ticket, they did not write anything about the ticket
 

GadgetMan

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He swiped the ticket then he told me it was used before but he told me a date when I used it but I was 100% sure I did not travel on that date
Is the letter asking you for your version of events? If they are and you are 100% certain that there is no way the ticket had been used previously then I suggest you tell them so. Your ticket that the staff confiscated will have been handed in as evidence. If it had not previously been through a barrier then there will not be any evidence to say it has.

It is however important to point out, that if the ticket has been used previously and FCC can prove it then you'd be dropping yourself in more trouble by denying it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the letter they write I was been stopped and question and wanted to travel without ticket but I had a ticket, they did not write anything about the ticket
Does it say without a ticket, or without a valid ticket?
 
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Monty

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Advantx ticket issuing machines can be used to check if a ticket has been placed through a barrier before, so you had better be 100% sure that the ticket had not been previously used. Did you buy this ticket? If not how can you be sure someone else did'nt use it? (rail tickets are non-transferable, I'd just like to point that out). When and where did you buy this ticket? why did you buy a period return?

If you indeed have not used this ticket before then you have no reason to be prosecuted but I you've not really gone into any detail about how the RPI dealt with you and what was asked and recorded, did you sign anything?
 

Mrmkhan

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They say without a ticket, and about the ticket I bought it from Luton. To be honest with you I can't remember that I use this ticket before. Now main thing is that whether I use it or no I don't want to make any criminal record, in this regard what should I do now. I don't have any previous record like this
 

GadgetMan

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He swiped the ticket then he told me it was used before but he told me a date when I used it but I was 100% sure I did not travel on that date
They say without a ticket, and about the ticket I bought it from Luton. To be honest with you I can't remember that I use this ticket before.
Your version of events need to be consistent.

You need to decide whether FCC have a case against you or not.

If the ticket has been used before then they have a case and your response will need to reflect that.

If the ticket hasn't been used before then there is no reason why you should accept any sort of penalty, legal or financial.
 

bb21

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To be honest with you I can't remember that I use this ticket before.
This will not be a good line of defence. Saying that you cannot remember whether a ticket you intended to use has already been used is just imo only incriminating yourself further.

Did you buy the ticket yourself, or did someone else hand you the ticket (buy on your behalf)? If someone else bought it for you, did they pay for it in front of your eyes and hand it to you straight away?

Now main thing is that whether I use it or no I don't want to make any criminal record, in this regard what should I do now. I don't have any previous record like this
There is the possibility of an out-of-court settlement if you cannot be sure that your ticket had not been used prior to you using it, however there is no guarantee that it will be accepted. What you have said so far all point to a very easy conviction, unfortunately.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Mrmkhan. There are some very experienced people on here who can help you. But we need some more clarity please. (and in your own interest, you have already been advised to edit your first post to remove potentially incriminating information. Please do so. Soon.)
GadgetMan appears to have identified exactly the same points as I would want to have clarified before going any further with this.

It seems clear to me that there are 2 possible interpretations:

1. The ticket had been used (whether on another day or a few minutes beforehand, and whether it was the same barrier or at another station).

2. The ticket had never been used anywhere.

The Railway Company has interrogated the ticket and come to its conclusion. It seemed to be quite strightforward. Have you been able to reach the same certainty that the ticket had not been used, in any way, at any time. Your words appear to fall short of absolute certainty, and the difficulty which that puts us in is that people with the expertise and position to assist you may find that they are assistng someone who is, ultimately, proved wrong.

So, please, will you clarify whether there can be any doubt, however small, that the ticket had been passed through a barrier (or otherwise 'used') or if it is demonstrably true that it could never have been used?
We need certainty from you before we can give certainty to you.
Thank you
 

SussexMan

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Irrespective of whether it had been used before, what offence could have been committed here? Is it an offence to insert an invalid ticket into a barrier. I have to assume not as I guess this happens all the time. Which part of the NRCOC might have been breached? Which bye-law has been broken? Could a criminal offence have been committed? The OP had not begun to travel nor gone the other side of the barrier.
 

BrownE

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Irrespective of whether it had been used before, what offence could have been committed here? Is it an offence to insert an invalid ticket into a barrier. I have to assume not as I guess this happens all the time. Which part of the NRCOC might have been breached? Which bye-law has been broken? Could a criminal offence have been committed? The OP had not begun to travel nor gone the other side of the barrier.
I too would like to know the specific offence? Bye law 18 seems unlikely as it isn't covered by the "attempts" section of 24(5).

This makes me think RoRA Section 5(3.a.)
Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof
 

Mrmkhan

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I already mentioned on my statement that on the day when I was on the staion I insert the ticket into the barrier at 3:05am then ticket was not opening then I ask the officer for help, then he put the ticket into the machine & told me it was used before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One thing is that if I know this ticket has been used before why should I ask help from the office. I am quite sure I did not use it before. But because of their letter I m thinking did I use it by mistake, but I can't remember that I use this ticket.
 

bb21

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One thing is that if I know this ticket has been used before why should I ask help from the office.
This is irrelevant. A judge (should it go that far) will not see it like that.
 

snail

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I wante to travel from London St pancras to Luton, and for that I had a off peak ticket valid for one month.
More questions, that will help people decide the best way to help:

Was this the return portion of a ticket used to travel from Luton to St Pancras?

If it was, how many days had passed since using the outward part?

Did you buy it yourself? How much did it cost?

Do you keep old tickets after travelling?
 

SussexMan

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This makes me think RoRA Section 5(3.a.)

Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof
Therefore "intent" must be proved. Would putting a previously used ticket in a machine if you don't also hold a valid ticket be sufficient to prove intent?

I have to say I am struggling to understand how anyone could "forget" whether they had already used a ticket. How often do you make that journey? And When did you last make that journey prior to the incident in question. I assume it was a return as you said you bought it in Luton.
 

WelshBluebird

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Out of curiosity, when you a put a ticket through a barrier, if the barrier gives an error and will not open, is that still written onto the magnetic strip on the ticket as the ticket passing through the barrier? If it is, then surely the "use" the staff saw when they checked the ticket could have just been the barrier that didn't work a few minutes prior?
 

lyndhurst25

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I am quite sure I did not use it before. But because of their letter I m thinking did I use it by mistake, but I can't remember that I use this ticket.
If he's sure that he did not use the ticket before then I wonder what exactly is making FCC think otherwise.

What happens in the following situation - I buy a Luton to London return ticket. On arrival at St Pancras I accidentally put the RTN ticket into the barrier rather than the OUT ticket. Does the barrier -
1) Swallow the ticket?
2) Spit it out but mark the magnetic strip to say that it has been used in a St Pancras barrier? In this case are exits and entrances recorded differently on the magnetic strip?
3) Spit it out unaltered?
 
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soil

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It would seem to me that St Pancras is not terribly far from Luton, and that if one were to travel from Luton to St Pancras, one would most likely come back that day.

Therefore an off-peak return, valid for one month, is an obvious instrument for fare evasion.

So the question is - on the occasion that you went from Luton to London by train and bought a return ticket, how would you have got back to Luton, where I'm assuming you live?

An off-peak return is considerably more expensive than an off-peak day return, so unless you were spending several nights in London, before returning to Luton, which would be rather an odd thing to do, I don't really see why you'd buy one, especially considering that you don't seem to remember buying it, and it would have been nearly as expensive as two single fares.

I think a 'reasonable person' would tend to assume that you bought the return valid for 1 month for the purposes of reusing the ticket, and that you were caught in the act, and therefore 'bang to rights'.

Unless you can come up with a much better explanation as to why you had this ticket, that interpretation is likely to stand.
 

Mr Spock

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It would seem to me that St Pancras is not terribly far from Luton, and that if one were to travel from Luton to St Pancras, one would most likely come back that day.

Therefore an off-peak return, valid for one month, is an obvious instrument for fare evasion.
.
Thats a bit presumptious as many people travel relatively short distances for more than one day, perhaps to visit family or friends.

Anyway if you left Luton would you really want to go back so soon:)
 

Stigy

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Therefore "intent" must be proved. Would putting a previously used ticket in a machine if you don't also hold a valid ticket be sufficient to prove intent?

I have to say I am struggling to understand how anyone could "forget" whether they had already used a ticket. How often do you make that journey? And When did you last make that journey prior to the incident in question. I assume it was a return as you said you bought it in Luton.
Shouln't be too hard to prove intent to avoid payment in such an instance, as if the challenged, he'd have travelled on said ticket. With his only deffence that he is not sure if he used the ticket before, a charge under this offence seems the most likely. There could be a charge under 21(2), but with such a poor deffence for the OP, FCC might well see them as having the stronger hand and thus able to prove intent. Byelaw 18 wouldn't apply as no train has been boarded yet.
 

Mojo

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I disagree that it's "an odd thing to do." I regularly travel for a weekend or a few days away midweek to stay with family. The loss of the off peak return fare would add a significant amount to the fare as the cost of a single is only a tiny amount less than a return.
 

Greenback

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I think a 'reasonable person' would tend to assume that you bought the return valid for 1 month for the purposes of reusing the ticket, and that you were caught in the act, and therefore 'bang to rights'.

Unless you can come up with a much better explanation as to why you had this ticket, that interpretation is likely to stand.
I do not agree. I think it is entirely reasonable that there are some people who want to travel back from London to Luton on a different day. Llanelli and Swansea are even closer, but quite a few people want to go and vist friends and family for a weekend, for instance.

Perhaps by 'a reasonable person' you only mean RPI's?
 

Failed Unit

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I do not agree. I think it is entirely reasonable that there are some people who want to travel back from London to Luton on a different day. Llanelli and Swansea are even closer, but quite a few people want to go and vist friends and family for a weekend, for instance.

Perhaps by 'a reasonable person' you only mean RPI's?
Even this is a common situation

Go out to pub on Friday
Stay with friend
Return home saturday morning.

This of course could have go to work / finish shift following day.

Unfortunately for me my route only did day returns which were 5p more than the single.
 

Greenback

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Even this is a common situation

Go out to pub on Friday
Stay with friend
Return home saturday morning.

This of course could have go to work / finish shift following day.

Unfortunately for me my route only did day returns which were 5p more than the single.
Yes, it's the same with Llanelli and Swansea, but you hear people asking for overnight returns frequently, especially on a Friday and Saturday. The idea that someone will only stay elsewhere overnight if they live a certain distance away is nonsense really.
 

soil

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I do not agree. I think it is entirely reasonable that there are some people who want to travel back from London to Luton on a different day. Llanelli and Swansea are even closer, but quite a few people want to go and vist friends and family for a weekend, for instance.

Perhaps by 'a reasonable person' you only mean RPI's?
Sure, you can come up with scenarios that would fit.

But the OP needs to come up with one soon I would suggest, as thus far he is unlikely to convince.

Fares:
Off-Peak single £13.60
Off-peak day return £13.70
Off-peak return £22.70

I would imagine you'd remember if you bought that more expensive ticket, and why.
 

Failed Unit

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Sure, you can come up with scenarios that would fit.

But the OP needs to come up with one soon I would suggest, as thus far he is unlikely to convince.

Fares:
Off-Peak single £13.60
Off-peak day return £13.70
Off-peak return £22.70

I would imagine you'd remember if you bought that more expensive ticket, and why.
But considering the small saving, over 2 day returns. Would you really risk re-using? But I do see your point, in travel London weekly and remember every ticket I use. I have handed a gaurd a used ticket before by mistake, but handed the correct one over instantly. I have no reason to think the gaurd suspected it was anything other than a genuine mistake.
 

snail

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Out of curiosity, when you a put a ticket through a barrier, if the barrier gives an error and will not open, is that still written onto the magnetic strip on the ticket as the ticket passing through the barrier? If it is, then surely the "use" the staff saw when they checked the ticket could have just been the barrier that didn't work a few minutes prior?
If he's sure that he did not use the ticket before then I wonder what exactly is making FCC think otherwise.
These are questions for the OP to answer more fully, but he did say earlier the magstripe date was not the day of travel...

He swiped the ticket then he told me it was used before but he told me a date when I used it but I was 100% sure I did not travel on that date
 
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