Is rail travel in the North really that bad compared to the South?

[burty76]

Ok I'm using it as a worst case scenario.

But really, even if the interior of the pacer has been refurbished, and the 319 is in a sorry state inside - one is a four coach, quiet, electric train... and the other is a two (short) coach noisy diesel that looks like a bus.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I think they should run 4 pacers on a Thameslink service

What's the problem? It's an 8-car train isn't it!?

Spot On

Those 319's may be a bit battered now but theyre luxury compared to a pacer

If you look at the picture closely you will see the sides are yellow, thats with the smoking over the years and no body had bothered to clean it up

 

[HSTEd]

Running Pacers on Thameslink would violate regulations regarding operating of diesel engines in the tunnels in passenger service. (I don't imagine that is allowed in the newer sections?)
I doubt ventilation at St Pancras or City Thameslink would be considered adequate, certainly at the planned service ratings.

 

[DarloRich]

If you look at the picture closely you will see the sides are yellow, thats with the smoking over the years and no body had bothered to clean it up

No it isnt :roll: It is just discolouration of plastic after 25 years use!

 

[anti-pacer]

I'm ready to be kicked down in flames, but I've been to Man Airport about 15 times in the last year and never seen a Pacer...though thinking about it, it was mostly weekends.

I have!

 

[yorksrob]

No it isnt :roll: It is just discolouration of plastic after 25 years use!

I'm not even sure it's that. I've a feeling that soupy beige may have been in fashion during the eighties

 

[northwichcat]

I have!

Southport services are mainly booked for Pacers or pairs of Pacers but ignoring Southport services there are a rare site at Manchester Airport.

 

[Muzer]

No it isnt :roll: It is just discolouration of plastic after 25 years use!

Indeed. It's caused by the fire retardant in some types of plastic reacting with oxygen in the presence of UV light, IIRC.

 

[WestCoast]

I moved from the North West to the West Midlands about a year ago. LM has, by and large, modern stock and passengers benefit from PTE fares within the NWM area (not all that extensive for the whole region admittedly). So really the fares argument against Northern is a non-starter, although the North vs South fare differences outside Northern PTE zones are overstated.

 

[Eagle]

Passengers benefit from PTE fares within the NWM area (not all that extensive for the whole region admittedly).

As can be observed by the sometimes staggering differences in fares between tickets from Coventry and tickets from Leamington.

 

[starrymarkb]

Those 319's may be a bit battered now but theyre luxury compared to a pacer

That's one of the ex-FGW ones. FGW 'smartened them up' (new seat covers an internal paint) a bit as they were in a shocking state when they arrived from Northern!

Mind you I think that one's had the new seat trim but not the repaint as the doors are still yellow

Edit - Yes it was pre-repaint - Here is the state they left FGW in - http://www.flickr.com/photos/67147333@N02/6489408623/in/photolist-aTrV6z-evWHbS - (taken on the farewell tour of the branches)

 

[northwichcat]

That's one of the ex-FGW ones. FGW 'smartened them up' (new seat covers an internal paint) a bit as they were in a shocking state when they arrived from Northern!

I think FGW got a couple of the five that didn't even get the full refresh under FNW as Oldham Loop Metrolink was supposed to happen many years sooner than it did which left 5 units with uncertain long-term futures.

The new seat covers that have been fitted to the bus seats are much poorer quality than the ones they replaced and are already beginning to look worn out.

 

[Drsatan]

I think FGW got a couple of the five that didn't even get the full refresh under FNW as Oldham Loop Metrolink was supposed to happen many years sooner than it did which left 5 units with uncertain long-term futures.

The new seat covers that have been fitted to the bus seats are much poorer quality than the ones they replaced and are already beginning to look worn out.

Interestingly enough, I found a photo of a bus seat on a pacer with no cushions (click here). Maybe they're wearing out a lot more quickly than you suggest

 

[anti-pacer]

Interestingly enough, I found a photo of a bus seat on a pacer with no cushions (click here). Maybe they're wearing out a lot more quickly than you suggest

That looked disgusting! Shouldn't a train be taken out of service in that scenario? How can that be safe!

 

[156441]

It's safe because we use this thing called 'common sense' and nobody sits on it.

Or you cancel the service (which was a peak time Manchester to Kirby service) and then have 100+ people to shove on the next pacer!

Why do you suppose it might have been left in service?

 

[anti-pacer]

It's safe because we use this thing called 'common sense' and nobody sits on it.

Or you cancel the service (which was a peak time Manchester to Kirby service) and then have 100+ people to shove on the next pacer!

Why do you suppose it might have been left in service?

Well I was just thinking if the train had to stop suddenly, the person behind it jolts forward onto all that exposed metal. Alternatively, a little child is playing about, parent(s) ignoring them (happens all too often), they fall onto it. Northern would be in very hot water I think.

I know it's not the fault of train crews, and I know shortage of stock doesn't help, but trains travelling around like this is unacceptable, not to mention no doubt embarrassing for Northern.

Just out of interest, how long was it like this?

 

[156441]

It was like that till the end of traffic when the seat cushions were replaced. From what I remember of the defect book for that unit the seat back screws failed during the day causing the seat back to fall through. A member of train crew reported it but also had the common sense to remove the bottom seat cushion to avoid someone 'falling through' the back of it!

 

[anti-pacer]

It was like that till the end of traffic when the seat cushions were replaced. From what I remember of the defect book for that unit the seat back screws failed during the day causing the seat back to fall through. A member of train crew reported it but also had the common sense to remove the bottom seat cushion to avoid someone 'falling through' the back of it!

Which to a point is fair enough, BUT from that photo, there was still scope for injury with metal edges, etc.

I take your points though.

 

[455driver]

It's safe because we use this thing called 'common sense' and nobody sits on it.

Whats that then?

 

[tsr]

It's safe because we use this thing called 'common sense' and nobody sits on it.

I'm afraid it's not safe. As you surely will know (though many "normal" passengers won't), soft train fittings such as seat cushions will protect passengers if the train flips over in an accident, or if there is an emergency/sudden stop... etc. Put another way, without these fittings, the vehicle is unsafe because of what happens when an unrestrained passenger comes across a sharp metal surface in an accident. The fewer dangerous surfaces there are, the better. Not all hard or sharp surfaces can be got rid of - luggage racks and some light fittings do spring to mind - but minimising them is important.

I would at the very least have expected that row of seats and the row behind to be cordoned off until it can reach a location where a seat cushion or even unit swap can be undertaken (or the service terminated altogether). Passenger safety comes first. You can't have the situation where passengers are allowed to travel on an unsafe unit (or part of a unit) simply because it's more convenient. Overcrowding is dangerous, too, but it can be managed quite a lot more effectively!

As far as I recall, more modern units such as (to take one example) 171s have strong plastic fittings which prevent the seat cushions from coming off by being tugged at, but are flexible enough to withstand vandalism. It is certainly quite fiddly to remove a seat cushion from a 171 if you don't know what you're doing!

 

[anti-pacer]

I'm afraid it's not safe. As you surely will know (though many "normal" passengers won't), soft train fittings such as seat cushions will protect passengers if the train flips over in an accident, or if there is an emergency/sudden stop... etc. Put another way, without these fittings, the vehicle is unsafe because of what happens when an unrestrained passenger comes across a sharp metal surface in an accident. The fewer dangerous surfaces there are, the better. Not all hard or sharp surfaces can be got rid of - luggage racks and some light fittings do spring to mind - but minimising them is important.

I would at the very least have expected that row of seats and the row behind to be cordoned off until it can reach a location where a seat cushion or even unit swap can be undertaken - or the train can be taken out of service. Passenger safety comes first. You can't have the situation where passengers are allowed to travel on an unsafe unit (or part of a unit) simply because it's more convenient. Overcrowding is dangerous, too, but it can be managed quite a lot more effectively!

As far as I recall, more modern units such as (to take one example) 171s have strong plastic fittings which prevent the seat cushions from coming off by being tugged at, but are flexible enough to withstand vandalism. It is certainly quite fiddly to remove a seat cushion from a 171 if you don't know what you're doing!

Here here!

 

[edwin_m]

On a train even a sudden stop is very gentle compared to what might happen on a bus let alone a car. It needs a collision or derailment to cause the sorts of deceleration, or rates of change of deceleration, that are experienced routinely on other forms of transport. Hence the risk presented by this seat, with or without cushions, is much greater on a bus than on a train.

In this very unlikely event the passenger on the seat behind might "submarine" forward and hit their shins or knees on the bottom bar. While this is slightly less forgiving than the back of the non-existent back cushion, the sharp edge of the bottom bar is not facing the passenger and the increase in severity would be quite minor. Alternatively their head might tip forward and bang on the handle or upper bar, but the absence of the cushion makes not difference to this event.

Hence I would say that the increase in risk from removal of the seat cushions is insignificant and taking the seat behind out of service, let alone the whole train, would be totally disrproportionate and an example of what is commonly referred to as safety hysteria.

 

[455driver]

if there is an emergency/sudden stop...

The last time I did an "emergency" stop I didnt even bother picking my cup of coffee up off the desk because it is so gentle (no more than a bit of a jolt) that there was no chance of it spilling.

If the stop is sudden enough to cause submarining then the train has hit something so solid that no seat cushion will be the least of your worries, I mean trains crash (in this country) every 5 minutes dont they? :roll:

As for the rest of that post, thank. it made me laugh!

This forum is getting more "anti" rail every day and I am getting fed up with wasting my time answering posts from people that dont actually know much about trains but post as if the slightest little thing is a big problem, and any train with a bit of flaking paint should be instantly withdrawn from service until such time as it can be totally rebuilt to all the latest safety standards rather than leave it up to passengers to think " oh I will sit somewhere else" or "thank looks bad but it doesnt really matter" or "oh god I am out in the big bad world where there is a murderer and a paedophile around every corner".

I do honestly wonder how some people cope with the average day!

 

[edwin_m]

A-P I think you are right it's not great for the reputation to keep a train in service like that - but if the passengers knew the situation they would prefer to have a train with one seat cushion missing than no train at all. Perhaps there should be some stickers "we are aware of this defect which will be rectified as soon as the train can be taken out of service without inconveniencing passengers"?

However the point 455 is making relates to safety rather than comfort/reputation and I think you are wrong to disagree with this.

 

[Greenback]

I have travelled on a lot of trains with minor defects. Things like a leaking roof, a broken or msising seat cushion, and so on are an inconvenience, but edwin m is correct. As a passnege rwho needs tog e tosmewhere I would much rather the train runs, at least to a location wher eit cna be taken out of service and replaced without cnacelling the train.

I also agree with what Edwin says about safety hysteria. I heard someone say that the leaking roof on one service could electrocute everyone as the leak seemed to be near the lighting. I wonder why they didn't get just off at the first available opportunity, rather than risk their life by staying on the train?

 

[yorksrob]

I once got on a train to find a very neat little pile of (I assume) vomit on one of the seats. The guard had helpfully put some yellow and black safety tape between it and the next seat to stop people sitting on it. Kept the train in service !

 

[anti-pacer]

A-P I think you are right it's not great for the reputation to keep a train in service like that - but if the passengers knew the situation they would prefer to have a train with one seat cushion missing than no train at all. Perhaps there should be some stickers "we are aware of this defect which will be rectified as soon as the train can be taken out of service without inconveniencing passengers"?

However the point 455 is making relates to safety rather than comfort/reputation and I think you are wrong to disagree with this.

I think you're right. Passenger perception may not know why the seat was missing or indeed that it may be replaced. Some sort of defect signage would probably quell negative perceptions.

It's a bit like when people see a whole road of empty boarded up houses. A lot of people think "What a disgusting area, all these derelict properties". What they fail to understand is they're like that pending demolition and more often than not, a better replacement. However, a big sign advertising what's going on has another effect. Information is power as they say.

As for the safety element of the missing seat scenario, I will more than happily go with 455's safety advice on this as he drives a train, so knows FAR more than I do.

 

[edwin_m]

Cheers AP, glad we can agree!

I was thinking also of those "Police Aware" stickers you see on abandoned cars. Not only saves the police having to take multiple reports (and people wasting time reporting something that is already reported) but helps to give confidence that the local law is on the case. Even if they aren't.

 

[anti-pacer]

Cheers AP, glad we can agree!

I was thinking also of those "Police Aware" stickers you see on abandoned cars. Not only saves the police having to take multiple reports (and people wasting time reporting something that is already reported) but helps to give confidence that the local law is on the case. Even if they aren't.

How about "WARNING: Problem with Pacer" stickers?

They'd have to print a lot off though!

I am of course, joking..... partly!

 

[edwin_m]

Save ink: "Warning Pacer" would be sufficient.