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Is Railfreight a true privatisation success?

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yorksrob

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MGR traffic in Notts and Yorks was quite rightly regarded as 'easy money' and didn't require a subsidy. Of course that has all gone now.

I suspect even nowadays, as with passenger traffic, different flows are profitable (or not) to different extents. Don't get me wrong - there are good reasons to put freight on rail. Should we be subsidising it ? I get the impression that if road haulage was made to cover its true costs in terms of infrastructure and environmental damage, there wouldn't be the need to subsidise rail freight so much, but then again, there are some powerful vested interests in road haulage.

I just don't think it does the railway much good as a whole to pretend that railfreight is profitable when reality is more complicated.
 
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9K43

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After the miners Strike I had 20 pits on my route card , Millions of Pounds were spent on Grimethorpe Pit, and Wooley South kirby, Royston Drift, Brodsworth and a load of other pits.
These had thier bunkers blown up after a life of a couple of years. and are now just junk heaps at the side of the line.
I saw the demise of Tinsley, Cobra Rail Railfreight and the Yards at Donny, the wrecking of Hunslet East Oil Terminal , to be replaced with road transport from Immingham to the Petrol suppliers.
The list is endless and aided and abeted by a government who hated the working man.
 
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edwin_m

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Whilst in principle this is an excellent initiative, is there anything that stipulates whether these facilities actually have to be used? A rail served freight terminal has opened at Castle Donnington and yet no one is using it! Now given that it’s the only freight terminal in the East Midlands this is very worrying.

Another rail served freight terminal is planned for the Derby to Stoke line at Burnaston (where the Toyota car plant is). And yet one wonders whether developers are only planning to have it rail connected in order to get their sticky paws on the grant money. Toyota has shown no interest in the past in using the railways so the omens are not good!

The traditional freight grants were to pay the capital cost of facilities. This one is focused on operating costs, presumably because for intermodal there are terminals out there already so it's a question of the rail haul including road transfers being more expensive, but less environmentally damaging, than road end to end. Hence this grant should increase usage of existing terminals but doesn't encourage new ones to be built.

I think the problem you mention is different but real - developers include rail terminals to get planning permission for something else, but they end up not being used. They can argue it's all down to the market and that the people who moved into their development happened to have freight flows that didn't suit raill.

I'm not sure there is any way round this but perhaps it isn't so bad in that a population of rail freight terminals is gradually appearing and this reduces one of the obstacles to more rail freight. A few years ago we had no domestic intermodal freight to speak of, now we have several flows and predictions are that these will increase as long-haul road transport gets more costly and less reliable. So at least there will be a selection of terminals available for them to use.
 

David Barrett

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Well, EWS inherited a business with 15 000 or so staff, a £500m turnover and £60m profit from Trainload Freight (or so we were told). By the time of the early Canadian National era the turnover had not grown and, despite massive staff and other economies, a profit of just £3m. Losses were being made on movements as a whole and the profit such as it was came from disposals. After the bullish talk of less than a dacade earlier the impression that my former employer left me with was one of working for a scrap metal dealer who had inherited some serviceable assets which were found some use until they wore out, after which they were liquidated.
 

HSTEd

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People complained because wagonload freight was losing ~£50m a year.

Now the subsidy for what remains of the freight system is an order of magnitude higher.
 

sarahj

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The railfreight market in the UK is always going to struggle due to the fact that the road indsutry is busy cutting their throats to gain traffic. Small companies are going to the wall, some large ones are taking contracts as a loss leader just to gain traffic, the second hand market for trucks has crashed through the floor. Out on the road its tight with companies offering rates that just cover costs, the trains dont stand a chance.
 

NSEFAN

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HSTEd said:
People complained because wagonload freight was losing ~£50m a year.

Now the subsidy for what remains of the freight system is an order of magnitude higher.
Assuming you're still taking the artificially low access charges to be "subsidy", how was track wear and tear costed in the days of BR? Why is it (apparently) more expensive to run a train now than it was 30 years ago? Some of the possible reasons I can think of are:

-Heavier trains = more wear and tear
-More trains = more wear and tear
-More infrastructure upgrades and renewals = more costs

Also, is the increased "subsidy" necessarily a bad thing, if it means that more freight is moved by rail and hence helping to keep the roads clear?
 

HSTEd

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Freight was run on a marginal cost basis under BR, main line infrastructure was used in a manner conducive to the running of other traffic with minimal additional infrastructure investment.

Nowadays freight is being forced to increase expenditure on improvements to infrastructure to allow it to run in the face of expanded main line provision.
Freight loops and so on are being added all over the shop for instance.
We also now have multiple different flows moving in parallel directions using different operators whereas before they probably would have run as one train.

And then there is this whole diesel-under-the-wires mess.
 

CC 72100

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With regards to freight, I find it rather ironic that despite the freedom in choosing motive power, meaning that different companies could end up with very different fleets, that for the most part they have all chosen the class 66 as the mainstay of operations. Meanwhile over on the passenger railway, the DfT try to combine orders and add-ons to previous orders to achieve this standardisation.

Also, it would certainly appear that letting the FOCs choose their motive power has resulted in a very well suited, reliable (if slightly boring to the enthusiast) machine being chosen for the job and produced in large numbers. That I have to say in my view is one of the positive aspects of the current situation with FOCs.
 

Beveridges

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Also, it would certainly appear that letting the FOCs choose their motive power has resulted in a very well suited, reliable (if slightly boring to the enthusiast) machine being chosen for the job and produced in large numbers. That I have to say in my view is one of the positive aspects of the current situation with FOCs.

One notable difference is that TOCs continue to use unsuitable rolling stock such as 142s. If there was a freight loco so unfit for purpose it wouldnt last two minutes before the FOCs get rid of it. What I'm saying is the FOCs have a much higher standard in what traction they regard as good enough for the job than the TOCs.
 

The Planner

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Freight loops and so on are being added all over the shop for instance.

The biggest issue is that the existing ones are too short, though saying that I haven't seen any plans recently for brand new loops. There are plenty of people trying to rip loops and other infrastructure out to save costs.
 

87015

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With regards to freight, I find it rather ironic that despite the freedom in choosing motive power, meaning that different companies could end up with very different fleets, that for the most part they have all chosen the class 66 as the mainstay of operations. Meanwhile over on the passenger railway, the DfT try to combine orders and add-ons to previous orders to achieve this standardisation.

Also, it would certainly appear that letting the FOCs choose their motive power has resulted in a very well suited, reliable (if slightly boring to the enthusiast) machine being chosen for the job and produced in large numbers. That I have to say in my view is one of the positive aspects of the current situation with FOCs.

66s sit down on a regular basis. Not bad for diesels given the lack of real maintenance but certainly nothing to get too excited about in the grand scheme of things.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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What happened to the supermarket bonanza?
All the flows I see being mentioned seem to be endless trials with no positive result.
Given the way they talk about being "green", you'd expect Tesco/Sainsburys/Morrisons/Asda to be using rail a lot more.
 

David Barrett

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66s sit down on a regular basis. Not bad for diesels given the lack of real maintenance but certainly nothing to get too excited about in the grand scheme of things.

Agreed; they also came with their fair share of problems too when hardly a day passed without some special check or another or modification to be carried out. We were told of wonderful things to come with terms like "Proven design, continuous development and hit the ground running" being used frequently by people at the top. One big headache was high wheelwear rates associated with the self steer bogies which, perhaps, would have been surprising had it not been for the fact that 31 locomotives built for C.I.E. had exactly the same problem, so bad that at one time that 29 out of the fleet were stopped for this very reason. Looking at the availability figures, which were posted around the depots it seemed, at times, that their performance was little better than other types and on one notorious occasion the remaining 47s came out well ahead.

Still, I suppose that they haven't done too badly when you consider that those in DBS ownership are basically an off the peg mixed traffic machine (their gearing is, if I recall correctly, 87 M.P.H. as opposed to their maximum permitted speed, which suggests M.T. to me anyway and it was not until the 66/6s that this was altered in order to make a true heavy haul unit out of later deliveries to Freightliner etc.) being used on jobs which are more suitable for the class 60 than much else.

One anecdote from the period leading up to the ordering of the 66s suggest that even E.M.D. weren't all that convinced that they were the right tool for the job or that E.W.S. really knew what it needed.

Anyway that was the fitting shop view at the time.
 
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RichmondCommu

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What happened to the supermarket bonanza?
All the flows I see being mentioned seem to be endless trials with no positive result.
Given the way they talk about being "green", you'd expect Tesco/Sainsburys/Morrisons/Asda to be using rail a lot more.

Well to be fair the trial flow from Daventry to Euston was always going to end in failure because the distance wasn't long enough to make it viable. However the services to Scotland and South Wales seem to have been a success.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And then there is this whole diesel-under-the-wires mess.

In terms of the Stobbart DRS contract then yes I would agree that was a rather strange decision by Tesco / Stobbart. Clearly the deciding factor was price rather than green issues.
 

HSTEd

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That whole scenario is not helped by DBS hoarding all the modern electrics.
This is why 92s rust in store while far earlier locomotives are in daily use with Freightliner.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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However the services to Scotland and South Wales seem to have been a success.

But they are one train a day aren't they?
If the business model is successful you would expect multiple trains on these routes, and other routes for the same customer being trialled.
One or two individual trains are a drop in the ocean in the supermarkets' long-haul networks, and don't give any economies of scale.
It seems like the plans for freight terminals generally, where firms pay lip-service to rail but don't really embrace it for volume business.
 

Beveridges

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That whole scenario is not helped by DBS hoarding all the modern electrics.
This is why 92s rust in store while far earlier locomotives are in daily use with Freightliner.

Also their unwillingness to use electrics rather than a 66 under the wires. They'd rather run a 66 under the wires for miles just because the last portion of the journey is unelectrified, rather than using a 90/92 then changing to a 66 where necessary.
 

tbtc

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Also their unwillingness to use electrics rather than a 66 under the wires. They'd rather run a 66 under the wires for miles just because the last portion of the journey is unelectrified, rather than using a 90/92 then changing to a 66 where necessary.

The fact that freight companies seem to find it such a hassle to switch between electric and diesel (and would therefore run a train hundreds of miles under the wires with a 66 hauling it rather than switching as you suggest) is one reason I don't buy into the "dragging" idea that some have instead of bi-mode IEP.

(going off topic, sorry)
 

87015

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The fact that freight companies seem to find it such a hassle to switch between electric and diesel (and would therefore run a train hundreds of miles under the wires with a 66 hauling it rather than switching as you suggest) is one reason I don't buy into the "dragging" idea that some have instead of bi-mode IEP.

(going off topic, sorry)

Which comes back, yet again, to the Balkanisation of the system. Its much easier to sort out loco and crew for that sort of thing if its joined up and you have lots of trains which can interwork rather than each contract being under a different business with a few trains a day....

Eg a Hams Hall / Lawley Street - Nuneaton / Rugby diesel for electrics onwards would be far more workable if there wasn't three companies having a slice of the cake so you can't use economies of scale.
 
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GB

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Also their unwillingness to use electrics rather than a 66 under the wires. They'd rather run a 66 under the wires for miles just because the last portion of the journey is unelectrified, rather than using a 90/92 then changing to a 66 where necessary.

I think we have proved recently that we are open to the possibility of using electrics... providing it is viable both cost and staff as well as time wise.
 

RichmondCommu

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That whole scenario is not helped by DBS hoarding all the modern electrics.
This is why 92s rust in store while far earlier locomotives are in daily use with Freightliner.

Hang on a minute, DBS own those loco's so they can hardly be accused of hoarding them! Why should they sell them to their competitors?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But they are one train a day aren't they?
If the business model is successful you would expect multiple trains on these routes, and other routes for the same customer being trialled.
One or two individual trains are a drop in the ocean in the supermarkets' long-haul networks, and don't give any economies of scale.

Well if Tesco required more than one train a day between Daventry and Inverness then they would run another one. Clearly one train is enough! And in answer to your question DRS now run another service from Daventry to Wentloog in Cardiff.

As for adding other services, as an example Daventry to Trafford Park in Manchester is simply not long enough to make it viable for DRS or any other FOC.

It seems like the plans for freight terminals generally, where firms pay lip-service to rail but don't really embrace it for volume business.

In some instances I would agree with this. However, as Edwin pointed building more freight terminals is no bad thing. Up until recently the East Midlands didn't have a single freight terminal (one has recently been opened at Castle Donnington). There was a siding that was used at Burton to unload containers and steel but it had no warehouse facilities. Without freight terminals the FOC's have no chance of moving into new areas and markets.
 
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sprinterguy

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Hang on a minute, DBS own those loco's so they can hardly be accused of hoarding them! Why should they sell them to their competitors?
As has been mentioned on another thread recently, DB Schenker don't own the class 92s. Lloyds banking group do, and are the leasor for these locos.
 

westhouses18b

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After the miners Strike I had 20 pits on my route card , Millions of Pounds were spent on Grimethorpe Pit, and Wooley South kirby, Royston Drift, Brodsworth and a load of other pits.
These had thier bunkers blown up after a life of a couple of years. and are now just junk heaps at the side of the line.
I saw the demise of Tinsley, Cobra Rail Railfreight and the Yards at Donny, the wrecking of Hunslet East Oil Terminal , to be replaced with road transport from Immingham to the Petrol suppliers.
The list is endless and aided and abeted by a government who hated the working man.

Hi 9K43

not sure how best to go about contacting you on here, but would like have a chat with you please about the Wath area.

regards
 
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As for adding other services, as an example Daventry to Trafford Park in Manchester is simply not long enough to make it viable for DRS or any other FOC.

DRS run a daily service for WH Malcolm between grangemouth & Elderslie, that journey is only about 40 odd miles.
 
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