Is this a common Scotrail scam?

[clagmonster]

Do we really think it is reasonable that a passenger (who by the sounds of it, boards and alights at unstaffed stations) is expected to collect these £15.80 change vouchers and once a week go to Glasgow Queen Street to collect his £75?

The Stagecoach buses in my area operate a change voucher system (I've only ever seen it mentioned once mind, and that resulted in the passenger choosing to leave the bus), in addition to having the facility to cash the voucher at the depot they can cash it on buses (subject to change being available) or use it to pay a future fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Take his £20 and issue him with a short change voucher from the advantix,

Do Avantix machines have this facility? Are guards/TTIs from some/all companies authorised to use it?

 

[richw]

Could they not pay with their debit card on the train then?

do they have a debit card or just a cash machine card...do they have a debit card open to offline transaction.

 

[34D]

Take his £20 and issue him with a short change voucher from the advantix, a few days of having to go to the ticket office for his change may well solve his reluctance in the first place

What ticket office! Both stations are (I believe) unstaffed. Trading Standards (or whatever the scottish equivalent are calles) would have a field day!

 

[bnm]

What ticket office! Both stations are (I believe) unstaffed. Trading Standards (or whatever the scottish equivalent are calles) would have a field day!

What would Trading Standards have to do with it? On buses it's quite possible to be issued a change ticket and not be travelling on a route that takes you near somewhere where you can exchange the ticket for cash.

If Avantix can be set up to issue change tickets and TOCs are happy to implement it then I see no problem in doing so from a customer service perspective. Conductors/Guards/TMs/ATEs (or whatever else they're called this week!) can only carry so much in a float. Better to ensure a sale than to let a passenger get away without paying. As long as the 'change ticket' policy is advertised then it will soon educate the travelling public that perhaps it's best not to pay that £2.20 fare with a £20.

 

[richw]

Such a system works well on first cornwall buses, don't remember the last person I saw present a 20 as it says you will receive a short change voucher if you need more than £5 change, these can only be exchanged at main bus stations, about 20 miles between each in cornwall, so a large inconvenience to most

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[bnm]

One thing I hadn't considered though with a possible 'change ticket' policy on the railways is inter-availability. Change tickets on buses cannot be used with operators other than those that have issued them. Might not be ideal on the railway....

 

[richw]

Possibly if you take a xc change voucher to fgw ticket office, an agreement could be in place for xc to reimburse fgw

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[Urban Gateline]

One thing I hadn't considered though with a possible 'change ticket' policy on the railways is inter-availability. Change tickets on buses cannot be used with operators other than those that have issued them. Might not be ideal on the railway....

Or, instead of change vouchers, how about giving out Rail Travel vouchers that could be used on any TOC, or even TOC specific ones? The value could be hand written and documented to account for the lack of actual change given. Then this passenger could use the voucher on their next journey and eventually the Guard may be able to give change!

 

[bnm]

Or, instead of change vouchers, how about giving out Rail Travel vouchers that could be used on any TOC, or even TOC specific ones? The value could be hand written and documented to account for the lack of actual change given. Then this passenger could use the voucher on their next journey and eventually the Guard may be able to give change!

You still though would need an accountable procedure in place for the passenger to exchange for cash. Not fair to tie their 'change' to use only on the railways. It's still there money and the promissory should retain the availability to exchange in full for cash.

 

[170401]

Take his £20 and issue him with a short change voucher from the advantix, a few days of having to go to the ticket office for his change may well solve his reluctance in the first place

how do you do that on Avantix?

 

[Flamingo]

how do you do that on Avantix?

+1? Never even heard of it.
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I had a guy years ago, produced a £50 note for a short early-morning journey, with a huge grin on his face.

The grin went when I took out one of the two £50 floats I had, took a few quid out of it, and handed him the rest (£47 something in assorted pound coins and silver). I did advise him to check it!

 

[170401]

Haha, I've done that a few times for £20s! The response is usually truly satisfying!

 

[Bungle73]

Haha, I've done that a few times for £20s! The response is usually truly satisfying!

£20 is hardly a large note. A lot of the time that's what ATMs will dish out.

 

[First class]

Surely £50s should be more widely circulated from cash machines these days, people are buying more expensive goods in cash since the "recession". The new note is about as secure as they come in GB.

Scottish £100s would wipe any guard out though! Can't even refuse them.

£1million and £100million notes also exist, although not circulated in public.

 

[island]

I think I've had a £50 note once in 14 months living in the UK. On the other hand, when living in Ireland I had €50 notes more often than not.

 

[First class]

I think I've had a £50 note once in 14 months living in the UK. On the other hand, when living in Ireland I had €50 notes more often than not.

I wonder whether there are any money laundering regs specific to the rail industry, a Manchester-London annual travelcard is near £21,000. If I was a budding criminal, you would just:

Use ill gotten cash to buy such season using fake name
Apply for refund shortly after, minus £10 (haha) fee. Result would be a nice large cheque in the post.
Cash cheque at one of those dodgy cash chequing centres.

 

[Marton]

Scottish £100s would wipe any guard out though! Can't even refuse them.

Why not? They are not legal tender in any part of the UK. http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/about/faqs.htm#16

In Scotland over £10, its either £1, £2 or £5 coins http://www.royalmint.com/corporate/policies/legal_tender_guidelines.aspx

 

[island]

I wonder whether there are any money laundering regs specific to the rail industry, a Manchester-London annual travelcard is near £21,000. If I was a budding criminal, you would just:

Use ill gotten cash to buy such season using fake name
Apply for refund shortly after, minus £10 (haha) fee. Result would be a nice large cheque in the post.
Cash cheque at one of those dodgy cash chequing centres.

I do believe you need to present ID and proof of address for any transaction over £15,000.

Why not? They are not legal tender in any part of the UK. http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/about/faqs.htm#16

In Scotland over £10, its either £1, £2 or £5 coins http://www.royalmint.com/corporate/policies/legal_tender_guidelines.aspx

Scots law also requires that a creditor accept any reasonable tender. However, legally, a legal tender must also be exact change.

 

[headshot119]

Ahh the legal tender chestnut.

Let's be frank people if we stuck to legal tender the economy would crash over night. We quite happily take £50 where I work with no issue, I don't see why other retailers have an issue taking them. Especially given the fact I've never been given a fake £50, but have been given plenty of fake £5, £10, £20s.

 

[First class]

Why not? They are not legal tender in any part of the UK. http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/about/faqs.htm#16

In Scotland over £10, its either £1, £2 or £5 coins http://www.royalmint.com/corporate/policies/legal_tender_guidelines.aspx

Maybe not legally, but by Almighty Ruler, ATOC's standards, which are probably binding in some way by joining their association, the rail industry must accept any of the following:

Bank notes issued by the Bank of England and bearing a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen;

Sterling notes issued by Allied Irish Banks plc
Sterling notes issued by Bank of Ireland
Sterling notes issued by Northern Bank Ltd
Sterling notes issued by Ulster Bank Ltd
Bank notes issued by Bank of Scotland
Bank notes issued by Clydesdale Bank plc
Bank notes issued by Royal Bank of Scotland
Sterling bank notes issued by the Isle of Man Bank Ltd;
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Jersey or Guernsey.

Any combination of notes and coins.

Acceptable combinations of coins are:

1p and 2p coins up to 20p;
5p and 10p coins up to £5;
20p and 50p coins up to £10;
£1 and £2 coins up to any amount.
However, a customer should not be refused a ticket for a low value fare because the combination of coins exceeds the above.

Jersey, Guernsey, and lsle of Man coins should not be accepted.

Quite why IOM coins should be refused I don't know. Had coins from Gilbraltar et al and used without question on the railway.

 

[Nevasleep]

+1? Never even heard of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I had a guy years ago, produced a £50 note for a short early-morning journey, with a huge grin on his face.

The grin went when I took out one of the two £50 floats I had, took a few quid out of it, and handed him the rest (£47 something in assorted pound coins and silver). I did advise him to check it!

Fantastic

Yet why is it that you've got a float(s) five times the OP, and I assume more tickets are prebought too.

 

[ValleyLines142]

We have to be careful not to make judgements here, as at the end of the day the passenger is still paying for a fare with a £20, but Mr OP are you saying that the conductor on board the train has to reject this every time he tries to pay? Of course, the issue here is, as a fellow member said, there may not be ticketing facilities at the alighting station. It is a problem actually.

I fully understand that fare evasion is a problem on our railways, and there have been a few incidents, for example the issue with that lad on an Edinburgh to Perth train who got hauled off by another passenger when he had an invalid ticket.

I can’t comment too much as of course I don’t know much about the incident and I don’t want to contradict what I just said about being judgemental as I don’t want to be myself, but I wondered whether the rejection of the £20 happened every day. I must admit, I’ve only had a £20 on me when I’m paying for the £2.40 journey in my local area in Cardiff and that happens a lot with me, but I have only been told once or twice to change it at the station, as most conductors do have the right change, albeit a little inconvenient which I accept, but unfortunately the money that I have is out of my control.

 

[Flamingo]

Fantastic

Yet why is it that you've got a float(s) five times the OP, and I assume more tickets are prebought too.

Diffrent depots, and diffrent sixe depots. I know that FGW issue £25, £30, £50, and £100 floats, and the guard carrying their "own" permanently issued float, depending on what depot they operate out of.

 

[455driver]

but unfortunately the money that I have is out of my control.

No, the money you have is entirely under your control.

If you think there is a possibility you may need some change make sure you have got some, or can you not see it.

I ALWAYS make sure I have got at least £5 in coins on me just in case, when I use some of it I ensure I get some more change from a convenient shop as soon as possible, I dont spend every penny I have in change and then try and buy a low value item with a note, it isnt difficult but some people seem to struggle with it.

I used to be a bus driver (20 years ago so fares were a lot smaller then) and people getting on with 15 shopping bags (not all the same shop either) and trying to pay a £1 fare with a £20 note "because I havent got any change" used to really pee me off, I used to say "how did you pay for all that then" and invariably they reply "with all my change", I ask "why didnt you save some for the bus fare" and they reply "I never thought of that", result is either they would take all my change and I would strugglre for an hour to get some change back or if I was in the middle of my shift I give them as much small change as possible making sure I had enough left (it was less weight for me to carry around), very rarely would I give them the sensible large coins in change.

 

[ValleyLines142]

No, the money you have is entirely under your control.

If you think there is a possibility you may need some change make sure you have got some, or can you not see it.

I ALWAYS make sure I have got at least £5 in coins on me just in case, when I use some of it I ensure I get some more change from a convenient shop as soon as possible, I dont spend every penny I have in change and then try and buy a low value item with a note, it isnt difficult but some people seem to struggle with it.

I used to be a bus driver (20 years ago so fares were a lot smaller then) and people getting on with 15 shopping bags (not all the same shop either) and trying to pay a £1 fare with a £20 note "because I havent got any change" used to really pee me off, I used to say "how did you pay for all that then" and invariably they reply "with all my change", I ask "why didnt you save some for the bus fare" and they reply "I never thought of that", result is either they would take all my change and I would strugglre for an hour to get some change back or if I was in the middle of my shift I give them as much small change as possible making sure I had enough left (it was less weight for me to carry around), very rarely would I give them the sensible large coins in change.

It can be a bugger admittedly yes but I still think conductors should carry a float with enough change in case; merely changing a £20 is easier said than done! But I see where you're coming from.

 

[CarterUSM]

It can be a bugger admittedly yes but I still think conductors should carry a float with enough change in case; merely changing a £20 is easier said than done! But I see where you're coming from.

I'm sure the great majority of us do Dan, but a run of several 20's in succession can wipe you out in any case, it's just one of those things, I couldn't care less what denomination of note I'm taking. If I can change it, I will. If I can't , I won't take it.

 

[clagmonster]

Quite why IOM coins should be refused I don't know. Had coins from Gilbraltar et al and used without question on the railway.

I seem to recall that IOM coins are not legal tender anywhere but on the Island. The notes are legal tender over here.

 

[swj99]

I'm not sure what the big deal is with this. For a definitive answer, I suppose we're probably going to have to wait for someone to be taken to court, get convicted, appeal against the conviction in the court of appeal, so that whatever the verdict happens to be will become a precedent case.

If you ran a shop, a pub or any establishment where you would be likely to be giving change to customers, and if you actually wanted to be able to make sales, you would probably make sure you had enough change to give to customers when the need arose. Why should a train operating company be any different ?

 

[reb0118]

If you ran a shop, a pub or any establishment where you would be likely to be giving change to customers, and if you actually wanted to be able to make sales, you would probably make sure you had enough change to give to customers when the need arose. Why should a train operating company be any different ?

On "pay trains" define enough? What is reasonable? Is it reasonable to carry on your person up to £17 change for every passenger on your train who wishes to pay?

A train is not like a booking office which is closer to the analogy above. It is deemed unsafe to be carrying a large float on your person as there is no secure place on board to leave cash.

 

[applepie]

As the OP, could you go with your own change, and offer to swap the man's £20 ? It seems the staff should have already noticed, but if they haven't, his response to your "helpful offer" will inform them?