Is this itinerary for real?

[richw]

The ticket enables someone to travel the whole of the south west - that's precisely what people are arguing.

It is clearly not what the TOC intends. Mistakes in contracts can be made with their things than price, of course. It's just that price examples are easiest to illustrate.

But had the travel already commenced then it would be past the point where any such cancellation of the contract could be activated.

 

[gasky]

Try Pinhoe to Exeter Central via Inverness. £3.60 first class and as you go to Waterloo first, then Exeter central is your last stop. 27 hours of First class travel for the price of a pint. Seems to be valid for any day as well.

 

[richw]

So there seems to be an issue with Pinhoe to Exeter central routing letting go via pretty much anywhere else in the uk!

And the GWR app clearly says valid by any TOC and route shown!

 

[furlong]

But had the travel already commenced then it would be past the point where any such cancellation of the contract could be activated.

If the contract is void, it doesn't need "cancellation" as it is as if it never existed.

The first hurdle is to determine whether the itinerary and/or route form express or implied terms or are not in fact part of the contract at all - considering that it is inconsistent with the express terms of the NRCoC (routeing guide, ticket conditions etc.) and that the ticket does not tie you to specific trains.

Then depending on the answer, you may move on to consider whether there was misrepresentation (false statement of facts inducing you to accept the contract) or (unilateral) mistake (rendering it void) or neither.
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In short, I'm suggesting anyone considering using one of these tickets in the way described should be certain of their legal position, taking professional advice as necessary, as it could easily end up as another expensive thread in 'Disputes and Prosecutions'.

 

[infobleep]

If the contract is void, it doesn't need "cancellation" as it is as if it never existed.

The first hurdle is to determine whether the itinerary and/or route form express or implied terms or are not in fact part of the contract at all - considering that it is inconsistent with the express terms of the NRCoC (routeing guide, ticket conditions etc.) and that the ticket does not tie you to specific trains.

Then depending on the answer, you may move on to consider whether there was misrepresentation (false statement of facts inducing you to accept the contract) or (unilateral) mistake (rendering it void) or neither.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In short, I'm suggesting anyone considering using one of these tickets in the way described should be certain of their legal position, taking professional advice as necessary, as it could easily end up as another expensive thread in 'Disputes and Prosecutions'.

Out of interest, are you a lawyer?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[richw]

If the contract is void, it doesn't need "cancellation" as it is as if it never existed.

The first hurdle is to determine whether the itinerary and/or route form express or implied terms or are not in fact part of the contract at all - considering that it is inconsistent with the express terms of the NRCoC (routeing guide, ticket conditions etc.) and that the ticket does not tie you to specific trains.

Then depending on the answer, you may move on to consider whether there was misrepresentation (false statement of facts inducing you to accept the contract) or (unilateral) mistake (rendering it void) or neither.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In short, I'm suggesting anyone considering using one of these tickets in the way described should be certain of their legal position, taking professional advice as necessary, as it could easily end up as another expensive thread in 'Disputes and Prosecutions'.

GWRs app states Valid by all routes and TOCs shown, this route is shown.
a normal punter won't be versed up on routing guides etc, and the Dumbed down routing guide on the TOC and NRE websites state all routes offered are valid for travel. There is no term allowing for obvious errors.

 

[Starmill]

Do you suggest legal advice prior to booking all train tickets, or just a random sample?

 

[furlong]

Out of interest, are you a lawyer?

No, sorry, I should have added IANAL, but I do think people should be extremely wary of attempting to use erroneously-issued reservations in this way, and not allow the thrill of exploiting a bug in a website lead to doing something they'll later come to regret.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you suggest legal advice prior to booking all train tickets, or just a random sample?

Just the ones that are obvious mistakes. :roll:

It's well known that a select few people take the pee.

 

[Silver Cobra]

This reminds me of an itinerary I was given when doing a search for train times between Doncaster and Sheffield on Sunday. One option I was given provided an itinerary that took over 7 hours to complete, changing trains at least six times at places like Birmingham and Reading. The best part of it was that the first train in the itinerary, the 1559 XC service to Birmingham International, had Sheffield listed as a calling point (in fact, the itinerary above this one was simply to take this train and get off at Sheffield), but it still suggested to stay on the train and go on the huge circular route before finally returning to Sheffield over 7 hours later at gone 11pm.

Unfortunately, further searches on future Sundays have not recreated this itinerary, so clearly just a goof-up moment for the booking engine, but it was quite funny to see such a random route nonetheless. My only regret was not taking a screenshot of it.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It's a bit more complicated if the ticketing website actually accepts the booking and issues you a ticket.

The general principle is that a website/shop price label is an "invitation to treat" (i.e. they're asking you to make an offer), you make the offer and then the company decide whether to accept it or not. . . .

are we confusing Consumer Legislation with Contract Law here?

Indeed. Really a ticket is proof of a contract existing so the TOC have to offer you compensation if there's a significant change to the conditions after you make a purchase.

That is a separate issue. The question of compensation arises from a breach of contract, and the substantive terms of the contract are to convey the passenger from the agreed origin station to the agreed destination station. The Company (or Companies) will do that. The route, or even the provision of a train, is not part of the substantive terms of that contract.

A contract for travel between the origin and destination along the routes specified by the NRCoC+Routeing Guide. The route under discussion is not in the Routeing Guide. Unless using an Advance ticket that is contractually tied to the trains concerned, anyone attempting to take advantage of this bug is in a very weak position, in my opinion, and shouldn't be surprised if treated as joining the train without a valid ticket (while being offered a full refund for the incorrect ticket).

I agree.

This is clearly a mistake fare/itinerary. It is obviously a mistake to the layman. Legally, I argue no TOC has to honour it.

. . . .

Just because ticketing has happened doesn't mean the company can't cancel the contract. Clear mistake.

Yes, though the Company can, reasonably, be expected to honour the end to end contract.

. . .
a normal punter won't be versed up on routing guides etc, and the Dumbed down routing guide on the TOC and NRE websites state all routes offered are valid for travel. There is no term allowing for obvious errors.

But there is in contract law, which is why it is good advice to be appraised of the relevant legal framework.

Another piece of advice to anyone willfully seeking to exploit this error, is to travel with the neccesary cash to pay the appropriate walk up fare for the actual journey taken and to be willing to offer it up for payment at the first opportunity (whether or not the ticket is challenged, I advise the willingness to make the payment. With any luck, a ticket inspector will say 'No, that's not neccesary, I can see what you're doing here, there's been another mistake with the system' and drawing a circle in the air to represent your route, will add 'enjoy the journey').

 

[infobleep]

No, sorry, I should have added IANAL, but I do think people should be extremely wary of attempting to use erroneously-issued reservations in this way, and not allow the thrill of exploiting a bug in a website lead to doing something they'll later come to regret.

So if it had been a valid route in the routing guide, it would have been OK? Or does that also not count?

I had no intention of taking the trains myself but I'm fascinated but the legal position for anyone doing so.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[greatkingrat]

The route, or even the provision of a train, is not part of the substantive terms of that contract.

Does it make a difference if you specifically ask for a journey from A to B via C when booking? Is there then a contract to get you both from A to C, and then from C to B?

 

[Starmill]

Just the ones that are obvious mistakes. :roll:

And what would the definition of that be?

 

[furlong]

So if it had been a valid route in the routing guide, it would have been OK?

Well, I think that's what the express terms of the contract say.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just the ones that are obvious mistakes. :roll:

And what would the definition of that be?

The answer is in the question: a fact which is 'obvious' from the evidence doesn't also require an external definition to render its veracity as that fact.

 

[ainsworth74]

And what would the definition of that be?

I would have said all the examples here are obvious mistakes personally and I think that that is unarguable. Perhaps there are some edge cases now and again but then there would be sufficient benefit of the doubt that the legal position all around becomes very cloudy.

In the examples under discussion here that clearly does not apply.

 

[Starmill]

It's impossible to use 'obvious mistake' in this sense. What about a £2 ticket from Manchester to Leeds. Is that an obvious mistake? What about a £1 ticket from Glasgow to Preston. Is that a mistake? Or a £1 ticket from Tweedbank to Glasow? What about a ticket from York to Leeds being valid via Harrogate? Is that an 'obvious mistake'? It's a highly circuitous route. Much less than a ticket from Oxford to London Marylebone being invalid via High Wycome - is that an 'obvious mistake'? A Brentwood to London return via Shenfield? That's not at all a reasonable route, looks like a mistake to me. Or what about a return from Chorley to Stalybridge being £17.10? That definitely looks like an obvious mistake to me. Or what about a £8 return from Sheffield to Gravesend? A £5 single from London to York? Or a 7 Day Season from Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads for £9? That looks like an 'obvious mistake' to me!

So, which of these do I need to take legal advice before doing and why not all of them?

 

[pemma]

£1 advance tickets used to be sold for Sheffield to Norwich via Megatrain. If you could get from Sheffield to Norwich for £1 it's difficult to say any very low fare is a obvious mistake.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's impossible to use 'obvious mistake' in this sense. What about a £2 ticket from Manchester to Leeds. Is that an obvious mistake? What about a £1 ticket from Glasgow to Preston. Is that a mistake? Or a £1 ticket from Tweedbank to Glasow? What about a ticket from York to Leeds being valid via Harrogate? Is that an 'obvious mistake'? It's a highly circuitous route. Much less than a ticket from Oxford to London Marylebone being invalid via High Wycome - is that an 'obvious mistake'? A Brentwood to London return via Shenfield? That's not at all a reasonable route, looks like a mistake to me. Or what about a return from Chorley to Stalybridge being £17.10? That definitely looks like an obvious mistake to me. Or what about a £8 return from Sheffield to Gravesend? A £5 single from London to York? Or a 7 Day Season from Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads for £9? That looks like an 'obvious mistake' to me!

So, which of these do I need to take legal advice before doing and why not all of them?

This isn't a hard question, but it's also not one you or I can answer alone - essentially, would a judge think "yes, this is a mistake, this is an honest mistake, and it should have been obvious to the purchaser that they were taking advantage of an honest mistake"?

The ticket and routing offered in this example involve passing through the destination station - and then criss-crossing and double-backing on oneself. The price alone is not under question.

(York to Leeds via Harrogate has route-specific fares and direct trains, so I'm not sure why this is a comparison.)

I am fairly sure that this is an obvious mistake, as is everyone else on the board. I am sure that most laypeople looking at that routeing would appreciate that it's a mistake as well.

As I've said, there are only a small number of people who routinely abuse mistake fares and routeings, so the discussion is almost academic.
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£1 advance tickets used to be sold for Sheffield to Norwich via Megatrain. If you could get from Sheffield to Norwich for £1 it's difficult to say any very low fare is a obvious mistake.

Indeed - no argument there.

This is about the routeing, not the price.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's impossible to use 'obvious mistake' in this sense. What about a £2 ticket from Manchester to Leeds. Is that an obvious mistake? What about...

None of those examples involve doubling back through your origin or a journey many hours longer than the other advertised journeys. I'm sorry but a journey from Pinhoe to Exeter Central via Exeter Central(!), Bristol, Swindon, Westbury and Exeter is quite clearly a mistake. This is irrefutable.

 

[richw]

This routing next week works even better. The entire country and Scotland with no interchanging at the same station twice and doesn't pass through Exeter central until the end. Circumnavigate most of the U.K. For £4 first class






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I've tweeted GWR screenshots now, sorry anyone who was cheating the system, Twitter team have reported it on their internal system. The above Inverness routing had no via inputted!

 

[ScotTrains]

This routing next week works even better. The entire country and Scotland with no interchanging at the same station twice and doesn't pass through Exeter central until the end. Circumnavigate most of the U.K. For £4 first class

That's extortionate!!! Exeter St Davids to Exeter Central via Scotland is only £1.70 First Class, even cheaper with a railcard!
At that price it's worth buying just to get into any First Class lounge that doesn't have a minimum fare.

 

[richw]

The all important confirmation of validity from GWR!

 

[Merseysider]

The all important confirmation of validity from GWR!

 

[najaB]

The all important confirmation of validity from GWR!

So how many have you bought?!

 

[richw]

So how many have you bought?!

None I ain't got time but if anyone fancies a day out before they fix it!

 

[91103eastcoast]

It appears that Pinhoe to Exeter isn't the only journey with this problem. TPE's app has just given me this for Doncaster to Chester le Street.

 

[bb21]

I wonder how much compensation the sub-contractor will have to pay for this cock-up.

Full payment of every zero-fare SOR/FOR issued might focus a few minds.

 

[Merseysider]

I wonder how much compensation the sub-contractor will have to pay for this cock-up.

Full payment of every zero-fare SOR/FOR issued might focus a few minds.

So that'll be at least 50x £660 then...