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Island Line Railway - current state and the future

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mrbouffant

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In my view the whole thing should be converted to guided busway and then it could seamlessly be integrated with Southern Vectis. Imagine the delights of a smooth, quick journey between Ryde Pierhead and Shanklin with onward journies to Ventnor and West Wight. It could be dewightful !
 
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I've just come back from IOW and had a good look at the current and old railway.

Excellent news with the new trains as well as the station and track improvements. However I can't see why they can't install ticket machines at all stations and make the whole island a penalty fare zone. Surely that would raise more money.

There is scope to extend the railway to Ventnor however some creative thinking is needed for the track bed around Wroxall as well as the tunnel, although not impossible. The same issue on the route between Newport and Cowes.

There is scope to extend the railway from Wootton to Newport and have a station around the Marina using existing tracked and scope for enlarging existing pedestrian tunnel in centre on Newport on former trackbed. This is not impossible and can be achieved if funding was made available. Due to traffic between Ryde and Newport, there would be demand, especially in rush hour when the steam railway is not running.

Extension to Freshwater and Yarmouth is desirable and again the trackbed is there. However there is little to no way in which to get trains into Newport itself due to development.

In relation to Smallbrook Junction, there is sufficient space to redesign the whole area as a terminus for the steam railway closer to the main road together with all platforms with an integrated park and ride with large car park, especially given its location of the outskirts of many communities and easy to reach by car and bus, providing land can be purchased.

All in all, excellent news for the IOW. Its continued future all depends on continued pressure by campaigners and financial investment.
 

Bletchleyite

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Excellent news with the new trains as well as the station and track improvements. However I can't see why they can't install ticket machines at all stations and make the whole island a penalty fare zone. Surely that would raise more money.

I'm really not sure it would. Reducing from an inspection on all trains to an inspection on some trains would I expect increase ticketless travel. On an operation like that it's best just to have the guards sell tickets.

Them not being able to pass between coaches is an issue, but that will be solved with the Vivarail units. They won't be able to pass through units, but assistant ticket examiners could be recruited for the summer period.
 

Fawkes Cat

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They won't be able to pass through units, but assistant ticket examiners could be recruited for the summer period.

If it comes to that, would I be right in thinking that the extra summer passengers are travelling from/to the ferry? If so, then a solution to making sure that everyone pays is a ticket line at the Pier Head and Esplanade - you won't get on/off the platform without a ticket.
 

Dougal2345

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I don't quite follow why IOWSR are so keen to extend to Ryde St John's Road.

Their statement says "Perceived benefits were the potential to increase passenger numbers on both railways by having the two operating alongside one another and also economic benefit to the St John’s area of Ryde (a deprived Council ward) and to the town of Ryde in general."

I don't follow the first point at all.. how does running trains side by side increase demand? And the second seems woolly in the extreme, and anyway not the sort of thing a preserved railway should be thinking of.

In truth, didn't they just want to extend their railway without much effort and expense..? But to me their current line is a nice length, not too long to get boring and the interchange station is ideal.
 

Chester1

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I don't quite follow why IOWSR are so keen to extend to Ryde St John's Road.

Their statement says "Perceived benefits were the potential to increase passenger numbers on both railways by having the two operating alongside one another and also economic benefit to the St John’s area of Ryde (a deprived Council ward) and to the town of Ryde in general."

I don't follow the first point at all.. how does running trains side by side increase demand? And the second seems woolly in the extreme, and anyway not the sort of thing a preserved railway should be thinking of.

In truth, didn't they just want to extend their railway without much effort and expense..? But to me their current line is a nice length, not too long to get boring and the interchange station is ideal.

The interchange is not ideal. Its a simple modern station with zero heritage value. Wotton is next to the site of the original station but has no historic value either. Ryde St Johns is a historic station and many volunteers care about helping their local community, not just about playing trains. I am not sure how an extension would help Island Line numbers but it would reduce running costs by getting rid of a mile and a half of track, station building and 2 platforms. IWSR would see passenger numbers increase. A station in a town with an interchange with a NR station will have a wider catchment and appeal than an interchange in the middle of nowhere with no road access.
 

Dougal2345

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But the "no road access" point - surely if you have a car, you'll drive to Havenstreet? So it matters not at all about Smallbrook Jct. being inaccessible.

I'm not sure it matters that it has "zero heritage value" either. It's pretty enough and is fine for customers to wait at for a few minutes.

Would steam at Ryde St John's Road really increase demand? I could understand if we were talking Esplanade or Pier... the holidaymakers would see the smoke, steam and locos and impulse-ride, as at Swanage. But no holidaymaker is going to randomly be mooching round St John's Road, are they?
 

Chris125

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Does the whole thread really need moving into speculative ideas? Seems a shame when we finally know what's planned.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Does the whole thread really need moving into speculative ideas? Seems a shame when we finally know what's planned.

The title of this long-running thread, as I read it, only concerns the "main line", whereas recently, many postings have been about the heritage railway and a separate thread should have been opened for such discussions on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway.
 
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Whats the signalling system used on the island? Will that be upgraded too as part of its 26 million pound package.
I cant imagine half a dozen cast offs will cost 26 mil
 

MarkyT

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Whats the signalling system used on the island? Will that be upgraded too as part of its 26 million pound package.
I cant imagine half a dozen cast offs will cost 26 mil
There are some semaphores remaining in the vicinity of Ryde St Johns Road station, under the command of the traditional mechanical signalbox there. Through the tunnels to Esplanade and over the water to Pier Head uses colour lights, as does the double track section to Smallbrook Junction. These are also under the control of the levers and mechanical locking at St Johns Road. A separate small switch panel, on the SB instrument shelf above the levers, controls the passing loop at Sandown, which has colour lights and is equipped with hydropneumatic 'train operated' points that, in the facing (diverge) direction, route trains automatically into the correct platform and are then 'run through' in the trailing direction to exit the station without damage occurring; the energy from the flanges of passing wheels pushing the switch rail open 'pumping up' the air reservoir in the device to hold the switch safely closed for the next facing movement. Illuminated Points indicators on the facing approach are used to inform the driver the switch rails are correctly positioned. I hope technical staff can lay their hands on a couple of additional examples of these units for the new Brading loop, as due to being entirely passive they simplify the control equipment requirements for a passing loop considerably. LU style mechanical trains stop devices were provided at key signals protecting junctions and single lines instead of TPWS in the early 2000s. The tripcocks that work with these on the former LU rolling stock were very easy to reinstate and will be equally trivial to retain on the new trains. The whole line is under control of one signaller based at Ryde so despite the headline age of the installation, the railway is actually fairly efficient in this OPEX respect. As with many simpler mechanical age installations, the box can effectively be kept going indefinitely and over the years much of the external and interior equipment will have been renewed routinely a number of times so the only 'original' features remaining may be the SB building itself and the main parts of the lever frame. This process could plausibly continue into the future as equipment needs to be replaced with incremental improvements incorporated as expedient. For example, axle counters might replace track circuits through the flood prone tunnels and on the sea spray vulnerable pier. Also signal heads or just the lamps inside could be replaced with low maintenance LED equivalents (where this has not already been carried out). All could be done without changing the underlying configuration of the interlocking hence limiting costs. The line is worked under track circuit block (TCB) regulations between Ryde Pier Head and Smallbrook Jn, then tokenless block (TB) to Sandown and the final spur to Shanklin is one train with no train staff (OTNS). The latter two systems do not have continuous train detection, so there is little intermediate signalling equipment in theses sections. Because the trains are continuously braked, tail light observation at the TB and OTNS clearance points is not required. Avoiding changes to the already very manpower efficient signalling will save a considerable amount of money. The new Brading loop will be very self contained and should ideally be built to the same standards as Sandown from a signalling point of view. It's worth noting train operated points can also be compatible with a 'Penryn-style' single split platform arrangement with one of the loop turnouts sited part way along the extended platform, if that is what is decided upon for Brading.
 
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A0wen

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I've just come back from IOW and had a good look at the current and old railway.

Excellent news with the new trains as well as the station and track improvements. However I can't see why they can't install ticket machines at all stations and make the whole island a penalty fare zone. Surely that would raise more money.

There is scope to extend the railway to Ventnor however some creative thinking is needed for the track bed around Wroxall as well as the tunnel, although not impossible. The same issue on the route between Newport and Cowes.

There is scope to extend the railway from Wootton to Newport and have a station around the Marina using existing tracked and scope for enlarging existing pedestrian tunnel in centre on Newport on former trackbed. This is not impossible and can be achieved if funding was made available. Due to traffic between Ryde and Newport, there would be demand, especially in rush hour when the steam railway is not running.

Extension to Freshwater and Yarmouth is desirable and again the trackbed is there. However there is little to no way in which to get trains into Newport itself due to development.

In relation to Smallbrook Junction, there is sufficient space to redesign the whole area as a terminus for the steam railway closer to the main road together with all platforms with an integrated park and ride with large car park, especially given its location of the outskirts of many communities and easy to reach by car and bus, providing land can be purchased.

All in all, excellent news for the IOW. Its continued future all depends on continued pressure by campaigners and financial investment.

"There would be demand", "Extension to Freshwater and Yarmouth is desirable".

Can I suggest you go away and read the history of the IoW railways - the Freshwater and Yarmouth lines were very lightly used even at their peak. Nothing has changed that would make that different.

@Altnabreac has some "rules of thumb" around re-openings which seem to give a pretty clear view of whether a reopening is likely to be even slightly viable - I'm 99.99% certain that none of the IoW ones will even come close to meeting them.

The whole of your post is crayonista at its finest - and totally deluded to boot.
 
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While I agree a line to Freshwater would be nice it would be so under used compared to the expense of it.
Its such a backwater little place, the summer months it does see a lot of traffic but even a 15 minute service wouldnt tempt most of the grockles out of their cars, particually having gone to the expense of bringing it here on the ferry. Those without a car are condemed to the horrors of the big green taxis we have here on the island which are rotten its true but Freshwater is to far to justify a line out there...

Theres nothing there to catch a train to and no intermediate places you would want to go to either.
 

Bletchleyite

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For those of us who aren't local to the island, what's the problem with the buses?

Not an awful lot. The short-term tickets like day tickets are rather pricey, but that's to fleece tourists, longer term season tickets and the likes are much better value, and a significant number of the Island population are going to be on free passes of some kind anyway given its age demographic.

I would venture as far as to say it is possibly the best rural network in the world by almost every measure except the fare levels. It has brand-new deckers at least every 2 hours (usually better) on routes that somewhere like rural Buckinghamshire would have one unprofessionally-driven rusting 15 year old Optare Solo every couple of days if that. It has frequencies and operating days long enough that it would be the envy of a provincial French city.
 
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For those of us who aren't local to the island, what's the problem with the buses?

Expensive, the traffic and long routes make them slow to get anywhere. The only saving grace is they are new buses.

nothing. It’s probably one of the best networks around, but the prices are quite high and suffers from traffic disruption.

As above.
The circular routes really dont help.
Sandown to Ryde via Bembridge for instance.

Not an awful lot. The short-term tickets like day tickets are rather pricey, but that's to fleece tourists, longer term season tickets and the likes are much better value, and a significant number of the Island population are going to be on free passes of some kind anyway given its age demographic.

I would venture as far as to say it is possibly the best rural network in the world by almost every measure except the fare levels. It has brand-new deckers at least every 2 hours (usually better) on routes that somewhere like rural Buckinghamshire would have one unprofessionally-driven rusting 15 year old Optare Solo every couple of days if that. It has frequencies and operating days long enough that it would be the envy of a provincial French city.

Not an aweful lot but if you actually calculate (as I did) the total cost of owning and running a car then compare it to the cost of a bus...
The results are surprising.
 

67018

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Expensive, the traffic and long routes make them slow to get anywhere. The only saving grace is they are new buses.



As above.
The circular routes really dont help.
Sandown to Ryde via Bembridge for instance.



Not an aweful lot but if you actually calculate (as I did) the total cost of owning and running a car then compare it to the cost of a bus...
The results are surprising.
Sandown to Ryde via Bembridge is hardly a good example given that this runs once an hour: there are 4 buses an hour on the more direct route via Brading - and 2 trains per hour too, of course.

The bus/car cost calculation is no different in the IOW than anywhere wlse, except at least on the Island the public transport option is a viable one. As mentioned above, many parts of the country with similar populations have nowhere near the same level of service. To take a random example, try getting from Brackley to Buckingham by bus (don't even think about rail!)
 

Bletchleyite

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The bus/car cost calculation is no different in the IOW than anywhere wlse, except at least on the Island the public transport option is a viable one. As mentioned above, many parts of the country with similar populations have nowhere near the same level of service. To take a random example, try getting from Brackley to Buckingham by bus (don't even think about rail!)

Precisely my point. And not only that, but a fairly large proportion of it is commercially viable too (which the high fares support as a sort-of "tourist tax").

It's better than MK's service, for one.
 
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Sandown to Ryde via Bembridge is hardly a good example given that this runs once an hour: there are 4 buses an hour on the more direct route via Brading - and 2 trains per hour too, of course.

The bus/car cost calculation is no different in the IOW than anywhere wlse, except at least on the Island the public transport option is a viable one. As mentioned above, many parts of the country with similar populations have nowhere near the same level of service. To take a random example, try getting from Brackley to Buckingham by bus (don't even think about rail!)

And yet at the time of night I caught the bus from Sandown to Ryde that was the bus I ended up getting and it went via Bembridge. It hardly seems to matter there are 4 others to Ryde when the one you get is the one that takes the circular route.

Then of course on top of that you have the time of the first bus.
A lot of jobs are in out of the way places that the bus doesnt go to, or doesnt go to at that time of the morning.

The bus is not an option for some in any way.
I can think of at least 2 major employers on the island whos early shift starts at the same time as the buses do, thus ruling out the bus as an option to get to work completely.

As to the cost of ownership of a car being equal to the rest of the country, I couldnt care less about the rest of the country, you seem to have missed my point.
Total up the cost of owning a car and compare it to the cost of the bus to work (if a bus runs at that time of the morning of course) then tell me a bus has an advantage.

Precisely my point. And not only that, but a fairly large proportion of it is commercially viable too (which the high fares support as a sort-of "tourist tax").

It's better than MK's service, for one.

So island residents pay a tourist tax... And thats ok?
Again, I couldnt care less about MK's service, only the service on the island.
 

The Ham

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Total up the cost of owning a car and compare it to the cost of the bus to work (if a bus runs at that time of the morning of course) then tell me a bus has an advantage.

5*90 day bus pass £1,125

Car:
£350 insurance
£30 VED
£160 Service
That's so far a total of nearly 50% of the cost of the bus and you've not driven anywhere but have you allowed for the cost of the car.

If you buy a £3,000 car and sell it 3 years later for £1,500 that's a total of £1,040 including the above and you've still not driven anywhere.

If you allow 13p per mile for fuel then you can drive a sum total of 654 miles a year.

Even if there's two of you you can only do 9,300 miles.

That's assuming a fairly low insurance and a very low cost purchase cost of car. For every £100 extra you spend a year that's 770 miles less that you could drive.

Those extra costs could include new tyres, breakdown cover, a more expensive car, a repair, an excess due to an accident, washing of the car, etc.
 

Meerkat

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Depending on where you are going you may have to pay to park the car as well
 

Bletchleyite

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So island residents pay a tourist tax... And thats ok?

But they don't. The singles and one-off day tickets (£10) are pricey. But if you live on the island it is likely you will not just use the bus once then not again for ages, and if that's the case you've got the following:

5 x day tickets £26 (just over a fiver each, which is a typical price for one in other towns and cities)
30 x day tickets £103 (£3 and a bit a pop, really quite cheap)
...with 2 years to use them up.

Or a weekly is £25 (about £3.50 a day), monthly £88 (just under £3 a day), 3 months (90 days) £225 (£2.50 a day). Though I'll admit these don't offer quite as deep a discount as on some mainland operators when compared to the day tickets bought in bulk.

IOW (in other words :) ) it's not quite as outrageous as you think it is.
 

67018

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And yet at the time of night I caught the bus from Sandown to Ryde that was the bus I ended up getting and it went via Bembridge. It hardly seems to matter there are 4 others to Ryde when the one you get is the one that takes the circular route.

Weekday evenings Sandown-Ryde has direct buses every half hour to 2310 and hourly trains. Hardly anyone else's fault if you caught the wrong bus.
Both bus and rail journeys come in at under £4.
Compare Bedford to Milton Keynes - the last X5 goes at 8pm and the journey costs £8. And those places have populations 10-20 times that of Sandown.

Then of course on top of that you have the time of the first bus.
A lot of jobs are in out of the way places that the bus doesnt go to, or doesnt go to at that time of the morning.

The bus is not an option for some in any way.
I can think of at least 2 major employers on the island whos early shift starts at the same time as the buses do, thus ruling out the bus as an option to get to work completely.

If you have a job in the middle of nowhere, especially if you have early starts or late finishes, public transport isn't an option - virtually everywhere - and this has been so for decades.

I couldnt care less about the rest of the country

This is where we differ. Please understand our lack of sympathy as you complain about a level of service that most of us can only dream of. And that's before £26m is spent on the rail system.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is where we differ. Please understand our lack of sympathy as you complain about a level of service that most of us can only dream of. And that's before £26m is spent on the rail system.

FWIW, there's another thread discussing bus services in National Parks. What there is on the Island is really not dissimilar to what Stagecoach operate (on a similarly mostly-commercial basis) in the Lakes - the slightly highly-priced "tourist tax" day tickets included. However, North Wales and the Peak District would, again, give their eye teeth for something like Vectis.
 
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5*90 day bus pass £1,125

Car:
£350 insurance
£30 VED
£160 Service
That's so far a total of nearly 50% of the cost of the bus and you've not driven anywhere but have you allowed for the cost of the car.

If you buy a £3,000 car and sell it 3 years later for £1,500 that's a total of £1,040 including the above and you've still not driven anywhere.

If you allow 13p per mile for fuel then you can drive a sum total of 654 miles a year.

Even if there's two of you you can only do 9,300 miles.

That's assuming a fairly low insurance and a very low cost purchase cost of car. For every £100 extra you spend a year that's 770 miles less that you could drive.

Those extra costs could include new tyres, breakdown cover, a more expensive car, a repair, an excess due to an accident, washing of the car, etc.

There isnt much between them when you work it out is there?
 
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This is a rather different position to

No its not.
Considering the convenience of a car, always being where you need it when you need it, not having to wait I would consider a car being a whole hell of a lot cheaper than a bus.
The actual cost in cash... there isnt much between the one and the other.
I worked it out a number of years ago when I was making daily trips from Ryde to Newport and back and figured I was better off with a car.
 

67018

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Getting back towards the topic, there's been mention of improving usage of the rail service by better integration with the buses. Has anyone got any ideas on how this would work in practice on the island?

Maybe Ventnor could be provided with synchronised bus-rail connections and through ticketing at Shanklin, for example. Which would be cheaper and more convenient than the challenging prospect of restoring the rail connection.
 

Calthrop

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With recent posts having mused on the desirability of a working rail line to Yarmouth and Freshwater; I can't resist doing a link to a post of mine a while back, in "Railway History and Nostalgia" -- said post, self-confessed fantasy / alternative history -- but: no offence meant -- trains to Freshwater in the 21st century... :( ("Point of divergence", as the alternative-history geeks say, for my piece as linked-to: is September 1952.)

https://www.railforums.co.uk./threads/fantasy-department-an-isle-of-wight-one.134874/#post-2689016

(Mods, if this reckoned inappropriate and / or just too silly -- please deal as you see fit.)
 
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