ITV Trouble on the tracks

[Domeyhead]

This programme has finished now. Do we think there will ever be another series?

I certainly hope not, at least not using the current TV programme vogue which for all the copycat producers and directors is now based around the perceived need to include jeopardy in every storyline. This may serve to create the "Plucky underdog winning through" style on heritage steam railways but on the big railway it has just given the impression of endless firefighting and incompetence, which is the last thing anyone wants to see from a professional organisation, and will only deter new business. The staple scenes of cheerful staff trying to cope under duress is not "funny", because to most people, using the train is not "funny", it's a necessary part of daily life. We have had some great programmes in the past of the standard that might appeal to people on this forum - the Channel 4 documentary on the Class 91 was a great example - but that was 30 years ago now and now I despair of the current mass market superficiality with which all current railway programmes come out of the same sausage machine. We need Panorama for the railway business and Horizon for the technology. We don't need Human Interest froth like Trouble on the Tracks.

 

[MotCO]

I’m a little surprised to see NatEx being criticised by some contributors. I thought they’d been left in an impossible situation.

Whilst I am not criticising Nat Ex, could they have operated flexibly to roster an additional bus? Given the demand, the bus would pay for itself, but it would obviously be dependent upon a willing driver*, who was not out of hours, and a willingness of management to agree to this. Or would they be unable to put on another bus because it had not been registered in the timetable? Could they call it a duplicate, even if it ran an hour or so later than the timetabled bus, or is this streching the rules too much?

* Maybe the same driver operating the 'overfull' bus returning following his trip, or another driver ending his/her shift.

 

[andy1571]

Whilst I am not criticising Nat Ex, could they have operated flexibly to roster an additional bus? Given the demand, the bus would pay for itself, but it would obviously be dependent upon a willing driver*, who was not out of hours, and a willingness of management to agree to this. Or would they be unable to put on another bus because it had not been registered in the timetable? Could they call it a duplicate, even if it ran an hour or so later than the timetabled bus, or is this streching the rules too much?

I think it would be reasonable for NatEx to be using any spare resource they had if services were facing such crowding. I guess the problem with the programme is we only get to see one departure on one service in isolation. There’s a good chance they may have already used their spare resource (and perhaps also called in any favours as they could) on other routes, and at other times in the evening.

Whilst you can run duplicate services, they really need to follow the timetabled service as closely as possible in order to avoid contravening the service registration. In an ideal world, the driver would have contacted the garage and another bus sent out to assist, but I get the sense resources were probably already stretched as it was.

 

[lammergeier]

So what, if anything then, was or are protetcting the points ? which obvioulsy were in reverse and not normal ?

There is a signal protecting them but the train would have stopped before it fully cleared the signal upon reversing. It's a common move at New St.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Aren't inspectors meant to be PSV licenced etc. If so, what was stopping the inspector (if they weren't out of hours) phoning up the depot control and asking for a spare bus be got ready (or one that's just arrived in depot be brought up to Moor Street) in order for them to run a duplicate?

 

[lammergeier]

No harm in dropping down. If platform staff ask me to do it I just phone the signaller first. I wouldn't do it without speaking to signaller, but then again it appears there are local instructions for Birmingham New Street.

If you phoned the signaller at New St for permission tk draw forward you'll be told to wait for instructions to come from platform staff. It would be interesting to hear the reaction from the signaller if you were to ring them for confirmation after you've already been given permission via the platform staff. It's a different place is New St.

 

[Robertj21a]

Aren't inspectors meant to be PSV licenced etc. If so, what was stopping the inspector (if they weren't out of hours) phoning up the depot control and asking for a spare bus be got ready (or one that's just arrived in depot be brought up to Moor Street) in order for them to run a duplicate?

All great in theory, and in a perfect world. Given the train problems in the area it wouldn't be surprising if a lot of bus drivers had already been used to help out on other routes. Don't forget that bus drivers, just like train drivers, have to meet strict hours, rest day and alcohol restrictions.

 

[Antman]

It appeared that the driver did not realise his bus was overloaded until it could not lift away from the kerb. It looked to be one of those "kneeling" buses. It looked like he handled it badly, as did the passengers, as did Network Rail directing so many passengers to it, as did National Express not having any relief service on standby when the market is on and the trains are on strike.

I think that British public transport often doesn't pull together when a crisis happens like in some other countries. It is not the only place to do that but some do better.

I've not seen the programme but the kneeling mechanisms can be very temperamental.

 

[philthetube]

I'm also wondering that if the bus was overloaded (i.e. has more passengers than stated on the bus capacity notice inside the bus), would the insurance be invalidated? Therefore the driver could not legally move the bus.

No, insurance will include cover for any errors staff make.

Aren't inspectors meant to be PSV licenced etc. If so, what was stopping the inspector (if they weren't out of hours) phoning up the depot control and asking for a spare bus be got ready (or one that's just arrived in depot be brought up to Moor Street) in order for them to run a duplicate?

No some operators use staff no longer able to drive for medical reasons, however many are promoted drivers and it can be useful to operators.

go on the road, please explain???

 

[SlimJim1694]

If you phoned the signaller at New St for permission tk draw forward you'll be told to wait for instructions to come from platform staff. It would be interesting to hear the reaction from the signaller if you were to ring them for confirmation after you've already been given permission via the platform staff. It's a different place is New St.

I think we must have our wires crossed. I don't sign New Street, I was just saying what I do when I'm asked to do it at my TOC. I saw posted up thread there are local instructions there. We dont have local instructions so we ring up the signaller regardless of what platform staff tell us.

 

[PG]

It's only the driver saying that it can't be driven - probably more accurate to say that he can't drive it safely, or legally, in that condition.

Indeed a driver in charge of an overloaded vehicle (of any class) is liable upon conviction to receive (at the very least) an endorsement of their licence with code CU50 Causing or likely to cause danger by reason of load or passengers.
Overloading is what is termed an absolute offence i.e. one to which there is no defence.

 

[lammergeier]

I think we must have our wires crossed. I don't sign New Street, I was just saying what I do when I'm asked to do it at my TOC. I saw posted up thread there are local instructions there. We dont have local instructions so we ring up the signaller regardless of what platform staff tell us.

I know, I was just trying to emphasise how different things are there when it comes to drawing down in case others thought the driver in question should have contacted the signaller before moving.

 

[LAX54]

If you phoned the signaller at New St for permission tk draw forward you'll be told to wait for instructions to come from platform staff. It would be interesting to hear the reaction from the signaller if you were to ring them for confirmation after you've already been given permission via the platform staff. It's a different place is New St.

On the other hand if a Driver made such a move in our area (G.E Outer), hed would find himslef, answering questions from his Driver Manager !

 

[route101]

Noticed on the programme , is that Network Rail staff despathcing the trains?

 

[lammergeier]

Noticed on the programme , is that Network Rail staff despathcing the trains?

Yes, it is.

 

[route101]

Yes, it is.

Interesting , never knew this happened , any other stations this happens?

 

[Mag_seven]

Interesting , never knew this happened , any other stations this happens?

I think it might be the case at Wolverhampton but cannot be sure?

 

[Mojo]

And I do not think they should have a spare bus just in case the railway messes up but I think National Express is a big company with many routes so there must be a good chance that at least one will use an extra bus profitably when the Christmas market is on, or is Birmingham's Christmas market much smaller than those I have visited elsewhere?

Birmingham’s Christmas market is the largest German-style Christmas market outside of Germany and Austria, with between 5 and 6 million visitors a year.

 

[Mojo]

Interesting , never knew this happened , any other stations this happens?

Network Rail staff have been responsible for train dispatch at New Street station since 2007 when the London Midland / CrossCountry Trains franchises were created. Prior to that it was the responsibility of Central Trains.

 

[M7R]

Most buses 'kneel'.
The bus wouldn't have been overloaded as such (as in too much weight) it would have simply had more passengers on board than it was safe to drive with.

nope it would have been well over weight. For the approval of busses to be used on the road it used passengers at 68kg... so when it says 50 seated and 15 standing, normally (not always but 99% of the time) that is due to being on the GVW limit for the bus. So a rammed bus will be over weight.

 

[the sniper]

I think it might be the case at Wolverhampton but cannot be sure?

They're WMT now, were always Virgin until around late 2018 or early 2019.

 

[Iskra]

That was blatantly obvious. Had similar situations with people turning up quite late in the day very agitated wanting to go half way across the country with a journey that requires multiple changes and asking what time they will arrive at their destination. Their next question is "What time are they coming back?". When you check and tell them the last return service of the day leaves 20 minutes after they've arrived, they still want to go.

That's rail enthusiasts for you

 

[SoccerHQ]

Enjoyed the bits focusing on the train managers/ticket inspectors on XC. Mad how many trying to fare dodgy actually sit in first class. One was politely told to get off at Coventry. He then got back on and hid in the toilet. Eventually removed at Oxford (was trying to get to Winchester IIRC).

 

[Blinkbonny]

Yes, very annoying. Especially to those of us who have had hassle whilst travelling on a perfectly valid First Class ticket.

Hopefully this kid gloves approach was for the benefit of the cameras. But still, a poor message to be sending out.

 

[theironroad]

Enjoyed the bits focusing on the train managers/ticket inspectors on XC. Mad how many trying to fare dodgy actually sit in first class. One was politely told to get off at Coventry. He then got back on and hid in the toilet. Eventually removed at Oxford (was trying to get to Winchester IIRC).

Yes, very annoying. Especially to those of us who have had hassle whilst travelling on a perfectly valid First Class ticket.

Hopefully this kid gloves approach was for the benefit of the cameras. But still, a poor message to be sending out.

At the least the TM should have removed the guy from 1st immediately and made sure he left at Coventry. Agree it sends a very poor message, he should probably have kept his mouth shut as well about criticising his colleagues who take a firmer approach, though there is a fine line between delaying the train and enforcing tickets.

Surprised the TM didn't offer to make him a cup of tea and some biscuits as well....

 

[JohnMcL7]

I did like the series but wondered if that pleasantness was put on as it seemed strange to allow the person to remain as they were when they didn't have a ticket.

 

[Ashley Hill]

If a person flatly refuses to move there's little that can be done at that point. It's no good arguing the toss and possibly making the situation worse. Ring ahead for assistance. This minimises delays and gets the person off,possibly for questioning by the BTP.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I don't remember him refusing although it's a few weeks since I've seen it but never seen someone without a ticket dealt with that way when I've been on a train.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I don't remember him refusing although it's a few weeks since I've seen it but never seen someone without a ticket dealt with that way when I've been on a train.

I was talking generally. Most TOCs would get the hump over delay minutes accrued. Hundreds or more pounds for delay minutes against a £100 fare. As TheIronRoad said, it's a fine line. Obviously the guard needs to be seen to be doing something too otherwise the passengers get the hump.

 

[edwin_m]

If a person flatly refuses to move there's little that can be done at that point. It's no good arguing the toss and possibly making the situation worse. Ring ahead for assistance. This minimises delays and gets the person off,possibly for questioning by the BTP.

I guess if you just chuck them off at the next station they disappear, but if you ring ahead BTP may be able to meet the train later in its journey and the person may end up being brought to book for whatever they are carrying. I imagine also if you tell them to leave the train at X and they are still on board at later station Y, that would constitute intent to avoid payment.