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Jeremy Corbyn pledges rail renationalisation

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Pigeon

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So tell me what has changed since 1994?

Trains are still filthy,

Station still are often disgusting and dangerous places and violence has spread onto trains especially on DOO operated services in and around the London suburbs.

The only thing ive seen change over the years is the amount of waste on livery, after livery being applied and then changed at a whim.

Main Line stations that were a hive of activity after midnight are closed, passenger trains that ran through the night now do not run unless you want to go to Cornwall or Scotland.

Granted we have got more and more new rolling stock, but most of it is not comfortable, seat are often hard as a brick, if its a diesel unit power comes from every carriage so the din and vibration is felt throughout the whole train, fresh air is a premium because trains have air condition / climate control and when this stops working its unbearable, modern trains also have infuriating and often inaudible / too loud pre recorded announcements.

Agree with all that except the "filthy". That began to change in the 80s as BR finally realised that you do need to replace the upholstery more than once a century. They still weren't too hot about cleaning the outside of the trains but that came in its turn.

Privatisation: subsidy famously at three times BR levels for pretty much the same output; vast and massive bureaucracy bloat so that even the simplest thing takes bleeding forever to get done; visible signs of extra spending are visible signs of wasted money - lots of new rolling stock because (a) it's about the only thing left that's reasonably easy to do and (b) it enables them to shout "LOOK AT HOW MUCH MONEY WE'RE SPENDING ON THE RAILWAYS, AREN'T WE ACE", but as you correctly point out, most of it is crap. Uncomfortable, cramped, bad views, bad air quality, inadequate capacity (because the money has been spent on flashiness in preference to functionality), noisy and poor riding (because everything has to be a multiple unit). So the pleasantest trains on the system are the ones which remain from the 70s, like the HSTs - and now we are losing even those, for no good reason, and some utter knob jumped in at the last minute and kyboshed the hope that at least the IEP would not be yet another multiple unit. All that money should have gone into infrastructure, which is where it was needed, only they made that too difficult to do plus it's not showy enough. (Well, nearly all; I don't dispute that some new stock was needed, since first-generation DMUs were even worse than the modern ones, but a little more thought for practical matters, like what the stock is like from the inside, to actually travel in, in place of private-sector willy-waving over what it looks like from the outside would have been a massive help.)

And instead of the new stock being built by the nationalised railways themselves, it is built by private companies who take a profit off it and aren't even British.

If a nationalised industry is not being well run it isn't because it's nationalised, it's because the people running it aren't doing their jobs properly. The answer is not to privatise it and hope that magically fixes everything. It's a lot simpler than that: put a rocket under the arse of the people running it and tell them to pull their finger out, and if that doesn't work fire them and replace them with people who are prepared to do what they're being paid for.

If a nationalised industry can't function properly because it hasn't got enough money, the answer is to make sure it does have enough to function properly. Not to privatise it and hope the private sector will magically sort everything out. They will spend the money on the wrong things, and then make matters worse by wanting even more money back so they can make a profit.

The idea that privatisation saves money is simply nuts (and it certainly hasn't worked on the railways). To do a given thing costs x amount of money. To do the same thing and make a profit costs x + the profit. Therefore it is inevitably more expensive. The only way to make it cost less overall is to spend less on doing the thing, which in turn means that it won't be done properly.

And the whole idea that the railways have to make a profit is up the creek anyway. The roads don't. No reason why the railways should either. That they started off as private companies is not a reason.

Vital infrastructure, whether it's transport, water, medical care or whatever, is too important to be left to those whose prime concern is profit rather than service.
 
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WatcherZero

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So where do you stop, should retailers be nationalised so that they don't make a profit? Farmers? where do you draw the line and say this works better in the private sector than the public sector?

The reason companies can be more efficient in the private sector than the public sector despite paying dividends is called the profit motive, The knowledge that they will act as rational actors to maximise efficiency motivated by the return in profit. For a public sector company there is no motivation to cut 1p off the cost to produce every unit or invest in new products or efficiency savings all a public sector organisation is motivated to do is produce the minimum acceptable product and to return the surplus funds back to the state rather than reinvest them. Even the brief stint of East Coast under public control saw that with massive cut back in planned investment to maximise the franchise payment.
 

Holly

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The reason companies can be more efficient in the private sector than the public sector despite paying dividends is called the profit motive, The knowledge that they will act as rational actors to maximise efficiency motivated by the return in profit. For a public sector company there is no motivation to cut 1p off the cost to produce every unit or invest in new products or efficiency savings all a public sector organisation is motivated to do is produce the minimum acceptable product and to return the surplus funds back to the state rather than reinvest them. Even the brief stint of East Coast under public control saw that with massive cut back in planned investment to maximise the franchise payment.
That may be true.
But profit made at the cost of increased government spending together with providing the public with less comfortable trains in which to commute or travel afar is a very bad deal for the general public. But a good deal for the bankers.

It needs to be taxed out of existence. And Corbyn is just the man to do that. Abolition of franchising and making all lines open access would be a good start.
 

Haydn1971

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It needs to be taxed out of existence. And Corbyn is just the man to do that. Abolition of franchising and making all lines open access would be a good start.


All lines open access ? What do you mean by this ?
 

Carlisle

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They still weren't too hot about cleaning the outside of the trains but that came in its turn.
.

Don't forget all those old DMUs, EMUs mk1 and mk2 based trains etc used cast iron brake blocks that used to stain both trains and stations a rust brown colour, a problem most of todays TOCs don't have, making cleaaning slightly easier
 
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class26

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So where do you stop, should retailers be nationalised so that they don't make a profit? Farmers? where do you draw the line and say this works better in the private sector than the public sector?

The reason companies can be more efficient in the private sector than the public sector despite paying dividends is called the profit motive, The knowledge that they will act as rational actors to maximise efficiency motivated by the return in profit. For a public sector company there is no motivation to cut 1p off the cost to produce every unit or invest in new products or efficiency savings all a public sector organisation is motivated to do is produce the minimum acceptable product and to return the surplus funds back to the state rather than reinvest them. Even the brief stint of East Coast under public control saw that with massive cut back in planned investment to maximise the franchise payment.

That would take us more or less back to communism as seen in the last century which if my memory serves me correct was hardly a roaring success
 

Haydn1971

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So where do you stop, should retailers be nationalised so that they don't make a profit? Farmers? where do you draw the line and say this works better in the private sector than the public sector?


Privatised rail has failed because of a lack of competition in the daily market - a franchise tender every 8-10 years does not in my eyes constitute competition, so the customer is left with whatever the DfT deems is what the customer wants. As a daily traveller, I buy a ticket from "National Rail" rather than a competitive choice from a operator, I can't take advantage of market forces offering me a competitive travel option, I have no choice in the train I catch, because parking nearby is set independently of the operator I travel with, I have no choice in badgering the operator to get better more appropriate trains, so I have to suffer what the DfT tells them to provide - I see no reason why a private company has to be involved in what is effectively a state managed monopoly - thus, let's just be clear and run it as a state managed monopoly !

Retail has no place under the state, there is widespread competition in the market.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Farmers? where do you draw the line and say this works better in the private sector than the public sector?

This statement immediately made me think of "the collective farm" system introduced last century under Communism in two large countries and of the actual reality that then followed after blind adherence to political dogma. Perhaps being a septuagenarian, I am more aware of that part of history than some of our younger website members.
 

hulabaloo

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Would it be fair to say that Deutsche Bahn would be a successful model to use or are they not as good as I am led to believe?
 

87015

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Would it be fair to say that Deutsche Bahn would be a successful model to use or are they not as good as I am led to believe?

Not really, DB has been Balkanised to death by political ideology and is no longer the system it was.
 

CdBrux

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To do a given thing costs x amount of money.


This assumption is fundamentally flawed. I have seen many examples at work (industrial, non rail related) where by good teamwork, critically challenging process, equipment used etc... we have been frequently able to to more for less money. It's how almost all companies stay in business because of they don't their competitors will.
 

NSEFAN

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Pigeon said:
And instead of the new stock being built by the nationalised railways themselves, it is built by private companies who take a profit off it and aren't even British.
The only reason BR built rolling stock "in-house" was because of how the old fashioned railway companies used to work. They had grown up vertically integrated, with most things done in-house. This is largely not the case anymore in most industries, even other state-owned railways are buying trains from companies like Siemens and Bombardier. Network Rail has the same problem, it has to go to specialist companies for lots of its infrastructure because just bringing it back in house would be expensive. Once you undo a vertically integrated industry it's hard to put it back together.

I agree with your point that the railways aren't a profitable business, and I think that privatisation has been a perverse way to justify spending more money on public transport without the government having to admit it. "Propping up a state-owned dinosaur" doesn't sound as cool as "bringing in private-sector initiatives". I suppose we should be thankful that someone high up realised how important the trains are, even though they'd rather die than admit it.
 

chorleyjeff

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This statement immediately made me think of "the collective farm" system introduced last century under Communism in two large countries and of the actual reality that then followed after blind adherence to political dogma. Perhaps being a septuagenarian, I am more aware of that part of history than some of our younger website members.

Surely anyone with any interest in talking about nationalising industries is aware of the huge amount of human suffering caused by nationalisationof agriculture in areas of highly productive land - or should be.
So far as BR was concerned I wonder how many people who post here actually used it. It was carrying on in the late 1950s/early 1960s much as it had before WW1 with slow, dirty trains at random inconvenient times for Edwardian patterns of traffic except for a few premier services. My travel to work in Manchester In the 1980s was a miserable experience of slow, dirty DMUs that made driving my car to work an attractive alternative.
Post war only the near monopoly of heavy mineral traffic and earlier general goods traffic kept them financially on life support; and this lifeline has gone with the collapse of heavy industry and mining and the building of motorways.
I dread the prospect of railways run as a nationalised industry without the hidden subsidy of captive freight traffic.
 

misterredmist

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And the whole idea that the railways have to make a profit is up the creek anyway. The roads don't. No reason why the railways should either. That they started off as private companies is not a reason.

Vital infrastructure, whether it's transport, water, medical care or whatever, is too important to be left to those whose prime concern is profit rather than service.

I'd dispute that , what the Exchequer takes in revenue from Road Tax , VAT on new vehicles and excise duty on fuel will be far more than is ever spent on the Roads......

In principal , I would have had no problems with a well run nationalised railway, but I think you have to take a time travel back to the late 80's and early 90's - the railways were a massive problem for HMG and the Public were not very impressed with the services or reliability.

There was no desire to pump more "Public Money" into the "failing" system, outdated stock and no great objections to privatisation......

As I have mentioned before, there's a lot of rose tinted nonsense about BR

Of course it's not good that HMG have to put more subsidy into the railways, but the railways are being used now at a rate they were not designed for and as a result the system is continually subject to "mend and make do" as it's almost always on the point of collapse. It would be interesting to see how much more money goes on maintenance and upgrading as compared to pre-privatisation.....

Also, you could not just kick out the incumbents at BR, and replace them with "professionals" - many of these people and the Civil Servants in charge of running such nationalised industries had gold plated , ring fenced, jobs for the boys, for life..... would current Civil Servants do any better ? look at the WCML franchise fiasco .....


Yes, we should be building our rolling stock in the UK, it's ridiculous that we don't, we should not pander to EU legislation about tendering , as I don't think our "friends" across the Channel and the Germans will place orders for their main line stock overseas.......
 

465fan

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If people are willing to vote for that wazzock on the basis that he would re-nationalise the railways (and let's not forget the EU ruling that either track or train has to be private...) then you're an idiot.
 

ivanhoe

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If people are willing to vote for that wazzock on the basis that he would re-nationalise the railways (and let's not forget the EU ruling that either track or train has to be private...) then you're an idiot.

People will take into account a number of issues before deciding on their voting intentions. Many people don't use the rail network at all but maybe interested in a change of direction on transport issues. For example, better bus services brought about by a change in the current legislation. Promises on better housing, health and education would rate highly in deciding who to vote for. Let's give the wazzock(your word, not mine)a chance to formulate policies first. Also your comment on track and train is incorrect. Ask DB or SNCF.They maybe separate accounting functions but could still remain within the one organisation.
 

Greenback

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As railsigns has said, there is no EU ruling that either track or trains have to be private. This appears to be a fairly common misunderstanding.
 

yorksrob

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If people are willing to vote for that wazzock on the basis that he would re-nationalise the railways (and let's not forget the EU ruling that either track or train has to be private...) then you're an idiot.

However, people might be persuaded to vote for Corbyn on the basis of all of the Tories policies.
 

D841 Roebuck

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PMQ's should be interesting this week...

JC: I have a question from Kermit - did you buy her dinner first? :D :D
 

455driver

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If people are willing to vote for that wazzock on the basis that he would re-nationalise the railways (and let's not forget the EU ruling that either track or train has to be private...) then you're an idiot.
There is no such rule so who is an idiot?

Track and trains have to be two separate companies, they can be part of the same owning group though!
 

Wolfie

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From the BBC News article now updated:

But the Conservatives dismissed the plan as an "ideological joyride".


Erm, so what, exactly, was the 1993 Railways Act?

...or indeed the possibility that Network Rail will be privatised which is now being floated....
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Looks like rail "renationalisation", whatever it means, has got to the top of the Labour agenda because it's a policy all sides of the party can sign up to.
Corbyn has had to make shadow cabinet concessions on Trident and EU membership and wants something from the right wing in return.
So hey presto we have a renationalization policy.
Lilian Greenwood is apparently going to lead a task force.
Personally I don't think they've thought it through, and imagine it's only a question of turning the passenger TOCs into a TfL-type operation.
Either way, I suspect TOCs will still exist and be let on competitive concessions like LO, but with public sector bidders allowed.
Probably not much difference to now, except possibly a less complex fare system.
Devolution won't go away either. The railway could be "renationalised" and yet fragmented even more than it is now.
 

jon0844

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As long as people think that we're somehow paying 3-4 times as much in subsidy as we did before (as if we have the exact same service now that we did then) and that private operators are creaming off the profits, and shareholders are enjoying the finest caviar and champagne at the taxpayer's expense - of course it's going to be an easy sell to the people.

Most people don't even have a clue how much a TOC can or can't do and how much is dictated by the DfT.

And TOCs can't really say, as they know it would be suicidal to reveal the truth about many things and then not make future shortlists.

Look at the grief oil companies get over petrol prices.
 

LLivery

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With the subsidy stats, do the figures from the BR era include Freight operators? Or is it just passenger?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Devolution won't go away either. The railway could be "renationalised" and yet fragmented even more than it is now.

Devolution could work pretty well if it was a joint venture. In Paris the RER is run by SNCF and RATP - no reason why a new BR and TfL couldn't do the same in London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If people are willing to vote for that wazzock on the basis that he would re-nationalise the railways (and let's not forget the EU ruling that either track or train has to be private...) then you're an idiot.

If that was true France wouldn't have recently made their version of Network Rail be a division of SNCF:

Réseau ferré de France (French: French Rail Network) (RFF) was a French company which owned and maintained the French national railway network from 1997-2014. The company was formed with the rail assets of SNCF in 1997. Afterwards, the trains were operated by SNCF, the national railway company, but due to European Union Directive 91/440, the French government was required to separate train operations from the railway infrastructure. On 1 January 2015, RFF became SNCF Réseau, the operational assets of SNCF became SNCF Mobilités, and both groups were placed under the control of SNCF
(Wikipedia)

Quite simple really.
 
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NorthernSpirit

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...but due to European Union Directive 91/440...

This is what I was pointing out regarding EU regulations.

One way to renationalise by the back door would be sectorisation, so the return of Network South East, Regional Railways, Network North West and Provincial along with a potential new one called TransCymru (i.e a Welsh version of Scotrail - which would please the Plaid Cymru voting members on here).
 

backontrack

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Let's just simply renationalise, and send the crap trains back south :D

Would/should the Intercity brand be brought back? Would it be still be called Intercity, or maybe East Coast Electrics, or something silly like Publicly-Owned Trains East Coast, Renationalised Express East Coast, or Teenage Mutant Ninja Hitachis? :P
 

deltic

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It is still not clear from any of the posts above what is the problem that nationalisation will solve and how will it solve it
 
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