Jeremy Corbyn would consider women-only rail carriages

[duncanp]

Back in the days of non-gangway compartment stock, didn't there use to be "Ladies only" compartments? Non-gangway and non-corridor compartments were on their way out by the late 1960s. I wonder when the last "Ladies only" compartment was removed. It's likely to have been against sex discrimination legislation, which was already up and running in the 1970s.

There was a murder on one of these trains on 23rd March 1988 on a train coming into Victoria.

From Wikipedia

"...Debbie Linsley, 26, from Bromley was found dead in a carriage at Victoria station. She had multiple stab wounds to the heart. The case was reopened in 2002 but no-one has so far been arrested. She lived and worked in Edinburgh and had been visiting her parents and brother Gordon. She got on the 14:16 train in an old-fashioned compartment from Orpington to London Victoria at Petts Wood. Screams were heard between Brixton and Victoria. The killer left traces of his blood at the scene but the murder weapon was not found. There is a £20,000 reward for information....."

Afterwards, red stripes were put above these carriages to identify them before the rolling stock could be withdrawn.

I re-iterate my earlier point that having women only carriages would enable undesirables to know exactly where women were travelling.

If you were a woman travelling alone, where would you feel safer - in a women only carriage with no-one else, where anyone could get on or come through at any moment, or in a carriage with other people.

Another point which Jeremy Corbyn has (unsurprisingly) forgotten to consider is what do you do if you are a man and you need to pass through a women only carriage to get to the toilet.

And then what about stations with short platforms..?

 

[NSEFAN]

I have to agree with others that this is a poorly thought out idea. Surely a socialist should know that an increase in men attacking women has deeper root causes than the fact they're in the same train carriage, and that segregation is just a sticky plaster on the problem.

 

[amcluesent]

It's as madcap as his pledge to renationalise the railways (illegal due to EU rules)

 

[northwichcat]

I'm surprised about the outrage regarding the legality of this. There are many, many situations in modern Britain where facilities are provided for one gender to the detriment of the other.

There are exceptions written in to legislation. For instance, religious reasons overrides usually equality law meaning the Catholic Church is not required to have women priests to comply with equality legislation.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's as madcap as his pledge to renationalise the railways (illegal due to EU rules)

It would be illegal to vertically integrate but not to nationalise once again (so Network Rail and Network Trains could exist but not one company for trains and rails) see SNCF and DB for examples of nationalised operators.

However I fear that this might be off-topic so perhaps would be best in another thread

 

[northwichcat]

It's as madcap as his pledge to renationalise the railways (illegal due to EU rules)

Is it? I thought if he allows Open Access operators to compete alongside a national operator it is permitted.

Anyway if UKIP and some of the Conservatives get their way we won't be in the EU at the next election.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's as madcap as his pledge to renationalise the railways (illegal due to EU rules)

There's nothing in EU legislation that says the railways have to be owned by private companies. A government can simply do what the French do- set the bar so high that no private company would ever want a contract.

There would be no legal issue with female-only carriages or compartments, so long as there is no detriment to anyone on the basis of their gender. It's no different legally to female-only swimming sessions at the local pool, or female-only gym classes. So long as all genders continue to have full access to transport- which they would- it would not be illegal.

It isn't the best idea though. The problem is very real, and the "not all men" argument isn't really relevant; nobody says all males are sex offenders, or that all sex offenders are male, but it remains a fact that most sex offenders are male. My friends, a lesbian couple, have been followed all the way from Canada Water to Marylebone on the tube before now by someone staring at them, and it is frightening. Having access to a compartment that their stalker didn't would have been enough for them to feel safer.

But the solution isn't segregation- as others have pointed, men are also victims of violence and anti-social behaviour, just in different ways, and this suggestion doesn't protect them. The solution is actually doing something about the anti-social behaviour. But sadly we live in a world where too many people still think that groping someone on the tube is just "banter", and that catcalling them and following them is just "being friendly".

As jcollins has also pointed out, he isn't the first person to suggest this, and "consulting" on something is politician-speak for kicking something into the long grass anyway.

 

[Antman]

It would be interesting to hear what some of our female forum members think.

My mother commuted to school on the Central Line in the 1960s, and to this day remembers and talks about the disgusting on-train behaviour of some 'gentlemen'.

A point my wife made was that any female who travels in a mixed carriage and falls victim will probably be told it was their own fault for not using a female only carriage and that it does almost imply that women in mixed carriages are fair game.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be illegal to vertically integrate but not to nationalise once again (so Network Rail and Network Trains could exist but not one company for trains and rails) see SNCF and DB for examples of nationalised operators.

Nothing stopping both companies being a wholly owned subsidiary of one company. The thing that is required, AIUI, is a means of determining that Open Access operators can come in on a fair level playing field in terms of access fees etc.

 

[meridian2]

Because women are so 'marginalised' in today's society.

PC guff...yawn.

:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

A point my wife made was that any female who travels in a mixed carriage and falls victim will probably be told it was their own fault for not using a female only carriage and that it does almost imply that women in mixed carriages are fair game.

And then a woman travelling alone late at night might be more vulnerable in a quiet female carriage than in one of the other ones, where if someone tried to attack her a male passenger might intervene.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The place where I get my hair cut in Manchester has a men only policy that the bloke who owns it says it to create an environment where men can feel (like) men. If they have women only coaches then they should have men only coaches.

Do you have the name of this establishment? I don't want to inadvertently go there as the proprietor sounds like an absolute neanderthal.

 

[Antman]

Do you have the name of this establishment? I don't want to inadvertently go there as the proprietor sounds like an absolute neanderthal.

Oh for goodness sake, how can anybody object to male or female only hairdressers?

 

[HSTEd]

It would be illegal to vertically integrate but not to nationalise once again (so Network Rail and Network Trains could exist but not one company for trains and rails) see SNCF and DB for examples of nationalised operators.

However I fear that this might be off-topic so perhaps would be best in another thread

Indeed probably off topic but I think I am allowed to reply just once - whilst it is nominally 'illegal' to vertically integrate at least two railways (DB and SNCF although the latter do not currently take advantage) are in possession of derogations allowing vertical integration.

Which means its probably not impossible to gain another derogation for a British railway operator assuming we are willing to 'play ball' and give up something for it.

 

[amcluesent]

Such carriages would be 'no go' areas for male RPI etc., they obviously couldn't be trusted.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Oh for goodness sake, how can anybody object to male or female only hairdressers?

I'm not objecting to hairdressers specialising in male/female hairstyles: It's pretty obvious that different styles require different skills and techniques. My criticism was that this person seems to have (a) a very old-fashioned view of what men/women are supposed to act or feel, and (b) feels that men are somehow threatened and need a "safe space" to be "real men".

 

[Antman]

Do you have the name of this establishment? I don't want to inadvertently go there as the proprietor sounds like an absolute neanderthal.

Oh for goodness sake, surely male/female only hairdressers are perfectly acceptable?

 

[talltim]

Oh for goodness sake, surely male/female only hairdressers are perfectly acceptable?

There's a difference between a barber refusing entry to women, and them saying, 'you can come in, but unless you want a man's hairstyle, I'm not cutting it'.

 

[Antman]

I'm not objecting to hairdressers specialising in male/female hairstyles: It's pretty obvious that different styles require different skills and techniques. My criticism was that this person seems to have (a) a very old-fashioned view of what men/women are supposed to act or feel, and (b) feels that men are somehow threatened and need a "safe space" to be "real men".

Not at all, my daughter works in a ladies hairdressers where they probably have similar views.

There are also women only gyms, driving schools and even cab firms
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a difference between a barber refusing entry to women, and them saying, 'you can come in, but unless you want a man's hairstyle, I'm not cutting it'.

Well try going into a women only gym and see what they say to you

 

[Bill EWS]

"clearly the alpha male no longer has a place in society"
Well, hopefully not in regard to molesting any femail on trains or stations!

It doesn't say much for too many Males that such a thing requires considering.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Oh for goodness sake, surely male/female only hairdressers are perfectly acceptable?

The justification- that men can't be "real men" when there's a woman about- that's the problem.

"clearly the alpha male no longer has a place in society"
Well, hopefully not in regard to molesting any femail on trains or stations!

Exactly.

As an aside, anyone who uses the phrase "alpha male" seriously is precisely the sort of person that we all need protecting from.

 

[cuccir]

There's a lot of thoughtlessness and crap on this thread. Let's get a few things straight:

1. It's probably a bad idea. Stock shortages, infrastructural issues (stations would need remodelling?), policing and associated costs would all be a problem. Plus, as has been noted, it's much better putting these resources into stopping the problem.
2. However it's only mentioned as an aside of a possible solution that has been raised to Corbyn by campaigners, and which he'd be interested in trial/consultation as part of a much longer interview
3. Favorable treatment to any group is legal under the Human Rights Act, if "objectively and reasonably justified".
4. Nothing in Corbyn's or the majority of discussions of this issue places 'all men' as the problem, says there is no danger to women from other women, or says that there aren't circumstances where a mixed carriage is better.

Let's not downplay that sexual harassment is an issue faced by many if not the majority of women. I'd invite any men on the thread to ask wives, girlfriends, family or friends over the next 24 hours if they've ever been groped, flashed at or verbally sexually harrased by men in public. The majority will say yes, and for over a quarter of them that will include groping and other things which extend way beyond what some would consider 'banter'.

 

[Antman]

The justification- that men can't be "real men" when there's a woman about- that's the problem.



Exactly.

As an aside, anyone who uses the phrase "alpha male" seriously is precisely the sort of person that we all need protecting from.

Just as some women can't be 'real women' when there are men about? This is just nonsense, there are obviously certain businesses that specifically cater for male or female customers only for obvious reasons:roll:

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just as some women can't be 'real women' when there are men about? This is just nonsense, there are obviously certain businesses that specifically cater for male or female customers only for obvious reasons:roll:

The idea that women can't be "real women" if there's a man about is just as archaic.

I can't think of many businesses that have to cater to only men or women for "obvious reasons".

 

[Antman]

The idea that women can't be "real women" if there's a man about is just as archaic.

I can't think of many businesses that have to cater to only men or women for "obvious reasons".

I've already mentioned them, hairdressers, gyms, driving schools, are they all guilty of sex discrimination in your view?

 

[BestWestern]

I wonder, would groups of drunk, cackling and general utterly unpleasant hen parties and such be allowed into these dainty little "I'm a Laydeee" carriages??

Or is it unacceptable to mention that such women exist now?!

Jesus Christ...

 

[thenorthern]

Plenty of bars in Manchester where you can do that

Are you talking about Canal Street or some of the violent ones that are full of guns?

Do you have the name of this establishment? I don't want to inadvertently go there as the proprietor sounds like an absolute neanderthal.

I don't think I am allow to advertise on this forum sorry.

On a more serious note do women only waiting rooms still exist?

With regards to gender discrimination I think its only allowed if it can be justified and if I remember correctly the only organisations that are mostly exempt from anti-discrimination are religious ones. As others have said Corbyn obviously hasn't thought it though and he hasn't said if it would be optional for TOCs to introduce the rules if they wish to like smoking coaches used to be or if he is going to force them to have women only coaches.

Is it just me or are the Labour leadership candidates putting out crazy ideas for the railways to win votes when in reality they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[fishquinn]

It would be a better idea to get a coach for drunk people on the train and have people at stations directing everyone who they think is drunk to that coach. Like this really daft women only coach, that will never happen.

 

[Greenback]

Is it just me or are the Labour leadership candidates putting out crazy ideas for the railways to win votes when in reality they don't know what they are talking about.

It's not just you. Though I think this particular idea is the craziest by several degrees.

 

[colchesterken]

Since the last" ladies only " went on the Southern and the unrefd 302/307s on GE,
we have become more open to other life styles where would the TVs TS & TG people go