• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Judge praises graffiti artists – then jails them

Status
Not open for further replies.

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Thought this was an interesting article in todays Guardian - I kind of think it demonstrates that that the easy thing to do is to say "lock um all up", where as I don't always think that is the most responsible approach.

Judge praises graffiti artists – then jails them

Three vandals who caused £150,000 damage to trains must go to prison, says judge – but they're talented

Cummings, Rowe and McColl engaged in a 'planned and prolonged campaign of damage to property', the prosecutor said. Photograph: Scott Barbour/Getty Images

A gang of vandals who caused £150,000 worth of damage by covering trains and tubes with their graffiti tags have been described by the judge who jailed them as "talented artists" on an "adrenaline rush".

Blackfriars crown court in London was told that Keiron Cummings, Alex Rowe and Billy McColl embarked on a three-year campaign of vandalism that caused huge disruption to train services.

The gang, who used the tag SMT, took to the internet to show off their efforts, with Cummings posting pictures and videos on blogs and photo-sharing websites.

He also had a map of the capital's rail network in his bedroom pinpointing the raids, with the words "You need all this and more" written above it.

Jacques Howell, prosecuting, said the trio had been engaged in "a planned and prolonged campaign of damage to property of an almost industrial scale", adding: "It's not simply tagging with marker pens. The scale we are talking about is the entire carriage being daubed."

Their aim, he said, was "obviously to get kudos amongst the graffiti community".

The trio were caught after British Transport Police officers began investigating a huge increase in the appearances of the SMT tag.

Cummings, 21, Rowe, 22 and McColl, 17, were caught three times carrying paint, face masks and gloves at stations in Northwood, Watford and Ealing before they were remanded in custody.

Examining a dossier of Rowe's work, Judge Henry Blacksell said that while he understood public frustration at the damage caused by the vandals, he did not want to jail them.

Sentencing Cummings to two years in prison, Rowe to nine months and McColl to a six-month youth detention training order, he said: "I will pass the least possible sentence. These are young men and people care about them.

"I don't endorse it but I understand the adrenaline rush and the feeling it gives them and they may be isolated in their families."

He added: "I don't want to be doing this and I will [be] as lenient as I can be. They've got talent and some of Mr Rowe's portfolio you would be proud of. Clearly they are talented artists."

David McIntosh, defending, said Rowe – who has seven previous convictions for graffiti in Harrow and Rickmansworth as well as affray – had been nominated for a Pride of Milton Keynes award for his voluntary work.

He said: "He is a young man who has a lot to contribute and could put his talents to good work and he intends to do that from now on."

The court also heard that Rowe had suffered from extreme depression as a teenager, while McColl had joined the gang as a way to "fit in" and make friends.

But Judge Blacksell said the lightest possible penalty would still mean prison for the trio, who looked at the floor as he passed sentence.

He said: "This is a course of conduct which is all too prevalent in our society as well as abroad and is dealt with by people who no doubt have talent. Sadly, it's often young men who in other areas of their lives feel isolated or inadequate."

The judge added that vandalising trains was not a victimless crime as "taking trains out of service affects people who are trying to live their ordinary lives, disrupting them in ways you probably don't understand".

Cummings, of Ruislip, north west London, Rowe, of Stantonbury, Bucks, and McColl, of South Ruislip, had each pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit criminal damage.

There is also an article today about rail fares increasing faster than wages, but I don't want to clutter up the rest of the forums with Guardian articles.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,504
Location
Southampton
The comment about their talent is a subjective thing. Surely the judge is allowed to have an opinion on this?

The fact is that these people graffitied trains. The quality of their work is not in question, and shouldn't affect the sentencing process.
 

D2022

Member
Joined
9 Aug 2012
Messages
463
Location
Blunsdon
I appreciate fully that they should be punished, but couldn't they let given something useful like cleaning the trains of other tags be given as punishment? It would certainly be fitting. Having seem some of the tags they are, in fairness to the youths, amazing.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
Why do some people have an obsession with getting criminals to do jobs that are otherwise done by non-criminals who get paid, especially given the current levels of unemployment?
 

D2022

Member
Joined
9 Aug 2012
Messages
463
Location
Blunsdon
Why do some people have an obsession with getting criminals to do jobs that are otherwise done by non-criminals who get paid, especially given the current levels of unemployment?

(Portion deleted after careful review of what I said about certain issues.)

As for obsessed? Hardly. I just don't see why someone else should clear up their mess, take time out of them doing something usefull when the person who caused said mess is in custody. Seems simple enough to me, do the crime, correct the problem you caused. Our prison system's are over crowding gradually if not already. Why cause the issue to increase and crowd them for what are really minor offences.
 
Last edited:

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,784
Location
Redcar
This unemployement thing is a government scam, I've managed to find several jobs this year, all better than the last.

7.8% unemployment is a scam? Two and half million people out of work is a scam? 16% of people aged 16-24 being NEET is a scam? I'd be interested to know in what way exactly this is a government scam?
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,703
This unemployement thing is a government scam, I've managed to find several jobs this year, all better than the last.

Wow, take a reality check my friend. You have been lucky and may have better contacts and qualifications than some. You also may not and may just be sheer luck! I once punched a guy in the face, doesn't mean everyone does. Obviousyl an example....

That is a comment that i hear regularly from those more priveleged around my university, be careful what you say as some people on this forum may be unemployed and find what you say very offensive.
 

ReverendFozz

Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
484
Location
Murton, Co. Durham
I think the judge is right, they are talented, some graffiti art is absolutely amazing, but these people who do it illegally should be punished for there crimes...

If only they could use there talent for good

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using Tapatalk 2
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
Why do some people have an obsession with getting criminals to do jobs that are otherwise done by non-criminals who get paid, especially given the current levels of unemployment?

One could argue that those who receive community service orders are doing jobs that could otherwise be done by non-criminals!

Going back to the matter at hand, even as a right-winger on crime and punishment, I have to say there does come a point where locking people up is pointless, and this would seem to be one of them. A stiff community service order, along with help to put their talents to better use would be far more productive!
 

HST Power

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
3,704
.....A stiff community service order, along with help to put their talents to better use would be far more productive!

As a fellow right winger I agree with that!

It does seem strange, however, with what Judges are coming out with these days. First there was the brave burglar, now we've got the talented graffiti artists. They may have talent, but perhaps he could have been a little more subtle in his approach. Cleaning graffiti is a laborious process, not that I've had to experience such firsthand!

I'm hoping to study LLB Law at University and I do wonder what they'll be teaching me!
 

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,802
This childish scrawl completely blights so many railway areas.
It is just another symptom of urban decay especially in London.

I think the mindless idiots who can be caught should be forced to remove it non-stop till it's gone. Then they should be chained up in a shopping centre and the public encouraged to throw any old paint they have all over them.

Then they should get 12 months corrective training in a military glasshouse.
 

AndrewP

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2011
Messages
370
Aw bless 'em

They have only caused huge amounts of damage and committed crimes.

Maybe this incompetent bleeding heart judge should offer to pay the costs and therefore support the talent he loves. That or quit over his obvious moral dilemmas and that criminals should not be punished
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,784
Location
Redcar
I think the mindless idiots who can be caught should be forced to remove it non-stop till it's gone. Then they should be chained up in a shopping centre and the public encouraged to throw any old paint they have all over them.

Why don't we just whip them whilst we're at it? I'm sure the Royal Navy can find a Cat o' nine tails in a museum somewhere...

Then they should get 12 months corrective training in a military glasshouse.

'Corrective training' in what exactly? Furthermore is this really what the military should be wasting its time and money on? I'd much rather the military focused on being one of the best fighting forces around than wasting time providing 'corrective training'.
 

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,802
Why don't we just whip them whilst we're at it? I'm sure the Royal Navy can find a Cat o' nine tails in a museum somewhere...


'Corrective training' in what exactly? Furthermore is this really what the military should be wasting its time and money on? I'd much rather the military focused on being one of the best fighting forces around than wasting time providing 'corrective training'.

What a good idea, yes I agree with you we should whip them.

Anybody who believes it's acceptable to scrawl over other peoples property and cause millions of pounds worth of damage is obviously deranged and needs pointing in the right direction.
 
Last edited:

michael769

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2005
Messages
2,006
Then they should get 12 months corrective training in a military glasshouse.

Ex military personnel are the largest single occupational group serving time in our prisons (source), and are over-represented when compared to the population as a whole. So I don't think there is any good reason to think that military discipline is effective in reducing crime and re-offending.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,703
Ex military personnel are the largest single occupational group serving time in our prisons (source), and are over-represented when compared to the population as a whole. So I don't think there is any good reason to think that military discipline is effective in reducing crime and re-offending.

Would you like some Ice for that Burn?

In all seriousness yes this is how it works, prisoners often suffer physcological effects that make them more uceptable. And kids who are abused are usually more likely to turn to crime so abusing them is that really going to help?
 

Max

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
5,457
Location
Cambridge
I think it's a fair comment - perhaps the judge is trying to give them a bit of hope? The irony is that people are frequently being paid to do organised street graffiti/art, so perhaps these people would be better putting their skills to use in this way?
 

bluenoxid

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2008
Messages
2,471
Actually, I think this judge is a cruel git.

Yeah, lads, you've got some talent here, I'm impressed. I don't want to to jail ya.

Long 10 second pause

But you're going down anyway :D
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,703
I think it's a fair comment - perhaps the judge is trying to give them a bit of hope? The irony is that people are frequently being paid to do organised street graffiti/art, so perhaps these people would be better putting their skills to use in this way?

That is the impression i get, basically saying your telents could be put to better use.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,452
This childish scrawl completely blights so many railway areas.
It is just another symptom of urban decay especially in London.

The sudden increase in graffiti on walls, structures, vehicles etc is a depressing feature of the journey into London.
 

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,802
The sudden increase in graffiti on walls, structures, vehicles etc is a depressing feature of the journey into London.

According to a few posters not only do they like it but would encourage it because apparently these criminals are 'talented'.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,703
According to a few posters not only do they like it but would encourage it because apparently these criminals are 'talented'.

Dont think anyone said that. I think what we said was, talents could be put to better uses.....
I disagree with any form of graffiti, but doing their own art is fine by me. As they clearly have an eye for it.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,784
Location
Redcar
According to a few posters not only do they like it but would encourage it because apparently these criminals are 'talented'.

Whose said that? As far as I can tell a few posters have commented that they do have talent but then have also said that they deserve to be punished.
 

AndrewP

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2011
Messages
370
Whose said that? As far as I can tell a few posters have commented that they do have talent but then have also said that they deserve to be punished.

The Krays were very talented in running extortion rackets.

Crime can take skill and intellect but that doesn't mean its right.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,784
Location
Redcar
The Krays were very talented in running extortion rackets.

Crime can take skill and intellect but that doesn't mean its right.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see what the Krays have to do with anything that I've said? I'm simply saying that some people have stated that the graffiti artists have talent but that they also deserve to be punished for committing an illegal act. At no point have I or anyone else said that their talent somehow justifies their crime.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
The Krays were very talented in running extortion rackets.

Crime can take skill and intellect but that doesn't mean its right.

Of course not, but I do believe that it is a responsibility of society to encourage more positive use use of them. Whilst pushing people in to the cycle of crime through institutionalising them in crime education centres is expensive both in fiscal terms and in social ones and benefits no one.
 

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,802
People keep repeating the word 'talent' I have more talent in my little finger than these immature criminal vandals.

I have seen loads of this 'talented' babyish scrawl and it's simply urban crap with no merit whatsoever.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
People keep repeating the word 'talent' I have more talent in my little finger than these immature criminal vandals.

I have seen loads of this 'talented' babyish scrawl and it's simply urban crap with no merit whatsoever.

Talent is rather a subjective term.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top