Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[anthony263]

We might get some of northern 144s early next year

 

[uxm]

So

That's all fantastic but due to Welsh Govt's lack of planning there's a rolling stock crisis right now. 170s aren't arriving until December 2019, 230s possibly next May along with 769s possibly next May. If the 769s are delayed beyond May, TfW will need to get the buses ready.

Or look up north :/

 

[Cardiff123]

So

Or look up north :/

Adding more Pacers is politically toxic. If getting Northern Pacers in is a back up plan to cover for the lack of 769s we won't hear about it until one pulls up in service on the Valleys.

 

[uxm]

Adding more Pacers is politically toxic. If getting Northern Pacers in is a back up plan to cover for the lack of 769s we won't hear about it until one pulls up in service on the Valleys.

Nah don't take it seriously it's a meme at this point.

 

[MatthewRead]

Here are the details of the future rolling stock including the routes:

Class 170

Heart of Wales line (from 2022)
Regional services between South and West Wales
South Wales metro lines - Ebbw Vale/Maesteg (until 2022)
Crewe-Shrewsbury local services (from 2022)

Civity

Regional services between North, South and West Wales and England (from 2022)
Conwy Valley line (from 2022)
Cambrian line (from 2022)

MK4

North to south inter-city service: Holyhead-Cardiff Central

Class 230

Conwy Valley line (until 2021)
Chester-Crewe (until 2021)
Borderlands line

What about the 769's?

 

[sw1ller]

If it's on a route affected by engineering work the chances are it won't work. The system can only cope with normal timetabled calling patterns. Most of the Manchester - Shrewsbury shuttles this weekend don't have working displays as there is no code for a Manchester - Shrewsbury service with that particular calling pattern. The same will apply to those units the other side of the blockade in South and West Wales, and for the last few months with the North Wales - Manchester services turning around at Warrington.

0699 & 0773 ;0)

 

[craigybagel]

0699 & 0773 ;0)

Haha yes I to forgot to add that occasionally if you've got a nice driver and if they happen to know a code for the destination (but not that particular stopping pattern) and you ask very nicely they'll set it up on a 175 so it shows on the external displays but doesn't make internal announcements. I wish 158s had the same facility but as far as I'm aware it can't be done....

 

[Envoy]

A Class 800 failed to dock the two halves yet again at Swansea yesterday. After 20 minutes they gave up and sent only the 5 car portion from Carmarthen off on its way to London. By the time it reached Swindon - it was rammed with people standing all the way to London. I hope that Transport for Wales are not going to face similar problems of splitting and joining on the curved platforms at Swansea? If so, we could still end up with only 3 coaches on the Manchester run.

 

[krus_aragon]

A Class 800 failed to dock the two halves yet again at Swansea yesterday. After 20 minutes they gave up and sent only the 5 car portion from Carmarthen off on its way to London. By the time it reached Swindon - it was rammed with people standing all the way to London. I hope that Transport for Wales are not going to face similar problems of splitting and joining on the curved platforms at Swansea? If so, we could still end up with only 3 coaches on the Manchester run.

From the thread on IET coupling issues:

... while software issues are shaken out its only currently done at Swansea and Paddington due to proximity of Hitachi technical staff.

So it appears that it's not necessarily Swansea's platforms causing the problem, rather that they're choosing to avoid coupling at other places because there aren't any fitters on standby elsewhere.

In TfW's case, coupling of Civity stock will take place regularly at Chester, Shrewsbury, Machynlleth and Swansea, but I suspect that it won't be done at Swansea until the "follow-on" order of First Class stock is delivered in 2024. The rest of the fleet will have been splitting and joining at the other locations for two years or so, so any bugs in the system should have been identified and rectified by then.

 

[43096]

Do we know for sure which loco class are likely to be hauling the sets made up from the 12 MK4 coaches TfW are taking on?

Is it likely to be class 67s and mk3 DVTs?

When are the MK4 s planned to enter service with TfW?

It will be Mark 4 DVTs. Mark 4s will not couple to a Mark 3 DVT at the inner end as the Mark 4s have Tightlock couplers internally within each set, whereas the Mark 3s are drophead buckeyes. In addition, the Mark 3 DVTs in use currently are owned by Arriva, although they have agreed continued use until the Mark 4s arrive.

 

[Gareth Marston]

From the thread on IET coupling issues:


So it appears that it's not necessarily Swansea's platforms causing the problem, rather that they're choosing to avoid coupling at other places because there aren't any fitters on standby elsewhere.

In TfW's case, coupling of Civity stock will take place regularly at Chester, Shrewsbury, Machynlleth and Swansea, but I suspect that it won't be done at Swansea until the "follow-on" order of First Class stock is delivered in 2024. The rest of the fleet will have been splitting and joining at the other locations for two years or so, so any bugs in the system should have been identified and rectified by then.

Yes the Swansea curved platforms sound a bit of red herring but Hitcahi/DfT are very sensitive of any criticism of the Bi-Mode wonder train they try and embargo any discussion.

 

[K.o.R]

It will be Mark 4 DVTs. Mark 4s will not couple to a Mark 3 DVT at the inner end as the Mark 4s have Tightlock couplers internally within each set, whereas the Mark 3s are drophead buckeyes. In addition, the Mark 3 DVTs in use currently are owned by Arriva, although they have agreed continued use until the Mark 4s arrive.

Isn't a Tightlock just a buckeye with some extra metal to keep the pair together better vertically as well?

 

[uxm]

What about the 769's?

Class 769 is for the cardiff to rhymney , this has been known for over a year and is not part of keolis amey but was part of arriva.

 

[uxm]

Isn't a Tightlock just a buckeye with some extra metal to keep the pair together better vertically as well?

No they are taking mk4 sets, and replacing the mk3 sets, mk3 dvts are going.

 

[PHILIPE]

There has been much discussion taking place on the future allocation and utilization of Rolling Stock and I have discovered there is very comprehensive information on Wikipedia:-



[/QUOTE]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_for_Wales_(train_operating_company)

 

[trainophile]

• Introduce new two and three-car new diesel multiple units for the Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly service by 2023, to replace the Class 175 Coradias

• 
  
• Still looking at 2-cars on that line then? That's not good news.

(Sorry messed up bullets when editing to identify the quote)

 

[PHILIPE]

• Introduce new two and three-car new diesel multiple units for the Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly service by 2023, to replace the Class 175 Coradias

Still looking at 2-cars on that line then? That's not good news.

No. 5 Manchester to Swansea (attaching and detaching and 2/3 Swansea to Milford Haven.

 

[trainophile]

No. 5 Manchester to Swansea (attaching and detaching and 2 Swansea to Milford Haven.

Oh that sounds more like it. Thanks.

 

[uxm]

• Introduce new two and three-car new diesel multiple units for the Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly service by 2023, to replace the Class 175 Coradias

Still looking at 2-cars on that line then? That's not good news.

There are almost double more 2 cars and the 2 cars will always be joined in 4 cars, there's a reason they chose the gangway civity.

 

[Agent_Squash]

There are almost double more 2 cars and the 2 cars will always be joined in 4 cars, there's a reason they chose the gangway civity.

Why aren’t they 4 cars then?

 

[anamyd]

More flexibility...? The only 4-car DMUs I can think of are some 168s and some 171s

 

[krus_aragon]

Why aren’t they 4 cars then?

Because they'll be used on Birmingham - Aberyswyth & Pwllheli splitting services, and on new Liverpool - Llandudno & Shrewsbury/Cardiff splitting services. And while you may want 4 or 5 cars for Manchester - Swansea, you don't need that sort capacity on the two-hourly extensions to Milford Haven.

I wouldn't agree with uxm's assertion that they'll always be paired up, but they'll frequently be joined together on the busier portions.

 

[Envoy]

Being as we are talking about long distance services, why are they planning on having doors in the middle of coaches? Surely, they should be at the ends to give a more Inter City like experience rather than that of a local commuter train that lets the cold air in at every stop?

 

[uxm]

Because they'll be used on Birmingham - Aberyswyth & Pwllheli splitting services, and on new Liverpool - Llandudno & Shrewsbury/Cardiff splitting services. And while you may want 4 or 5 cars for Manchester - Swansea, you don't need that sort capacity on the two-hourly extensions to Milford Haven.

I wouldn't agree with uxm's assertion that they'll always be paired up, but they'll frequently be joined together on the busier portions.

They are even combining the 3 cars into 6 cars for regional services from south to north.

 

[uxm]

Tfw specifixally ordered the gangway version of the civity like west Midlands did.

 

[craigybagel]

Being as we are talking about long distance services, why are they planning on having doors in the middle of coaches? Surely, they should be at the ends to give a more Inter City like experience rather than that of a local commuter train that lets the cold air in at every stop?

A lot of the time, they are also regional and commuter services. The services they will run on are very busy in and out of Cardiff, Birmingham and Manchester, and they also carry a large amount of short distance local traffic.

 

[Envoy]

A lot of the time, they are also regional and commuter services. The services they will run on are very busy in and out of Cardiff, Birmingham and Manchester, and they also carry a large amount of short distance local traffic.

I think that when they appear, that people will wonder why they have ordered new trains that are worse than the 175’s. Even the 158’s have end of coach doors. The new Hitachi IET’s are also very busy with commuters coming and going but they are proper InterCity trains with end doors. I wonder what seats Transport for Wales have ordered for their new fleets? Surely, not the rock hard / terrible angled ones that are on the Class 800’s?

 

[craigybagel]

I think that when they appear, that people will wonder why they have ordered new trains that are worse than the 175’s. Even the 158’s have end of coach doors. The new Hitachi IET’s are also very busy with commuters coming and going but they are proper InterCity trains with end doors. I wonder what seats Transport for Wales have ordered for their new fleets? Surely, not the rock hard / terrible angled ones that are on the Class 800’s?

Given they're over 3 years away from arriving, and we've not seen any sign of what the interiors will look like (the images that we're doing the rounds a few months ago are not accurate according to TfW) it's way too early to say that these units will be "worse".

 

[sw1ller]

What is the fascination of end doors?? I think end doors are a terrible idea myself. Having them at 3rds is so much better. I’ve been stood waiting for passengers to get off and back on again for over 12 minutes on a 175. This has a massive knock on effect. I don’t care how the train “feels” inside. Get people on and off quickly and to their destination. The train itself isn’t important to most people.

 

[Gareth Marston]

We might get some of northern 144s early next year

No problem with that even if the Welsh Government loses face.