Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[TRAX]

Indeed, and I still think it's bizarre. A number beginning with 2 I understand, but shoving it right up against another entirely different unit is, well standard TOPS behaviour I guess.

Yet RUK went nuts when TOPS started numbering new EMUs all over the place in the 7 range. Make up your mind guys, you want it all over the place or in a sequence ?

 

[Cardiff123]

To be honest I think telling us whether TfW Rail have finally got the PRM derogations they need to keep running a service from January 1st would've been more helpful today.

 

[507021]

To be honest I think telling us whether TfW Rail have finally got the PRM derogations they need to keep running a service from January 1st would've been more helpful today.

At least TfW Rail's PRM programme is closer to completion than Northern's.

 

[Cardiff123]

At least TfW Rail's PRM programme is closer to completion than Northern's.

Maybe, but TfW still need derogations for the extra 5 x 153s they are recieving from GA to mitigate for the lack of 769s, for 10 x 150s and 30 x 142/143s. So without derogations you can say goodbye to a viable service on the Valley lines come 1st January

 

[anamyd]

4xx are 3rd Rail DC EMUs so if they used that somebody would start a rumour that they were going to electrify the Valleys using that system to avoid problems with low bridges and Caerphilly Tunnel

exactly

 

[anamyd]

Maybe, but TfW still need derogations for the extra 5 x 153s they are recieving from GA to mitigate for the lack of 769s, for 10 x 150s and 30 x 142/143s. So without derogations you can say goodbye to a viable service on the Valley lines come 1st January

surely they also need derogations for the 10 other unmodified 153s, as well as the additional 7 unmodified 150s you didn't mention...? which only further emphasises your point

 

[507021]

Maybe, but TfW still need derogations for the extra 5 x 153s they are recieving from GA to mitigate for the lack of 769s, for 10 x 150s and 30 x 142/143s. So without derogations you can say goodbye to a viable service on the Valley lines come 1st January

And Northern currently need derogations for 8x 150s, 20x 153s, 11x 156s, 3x 158s and 14x 323s (56 units), plus any 142s still required after 31/12/19.

 

[anamyd]

And Northern currently need derogations for 8x 150s, 20x 153s, 11x 156s, 3x 158s and 14x 323s (56 units), plus any 142s still required after 31/12/19.

Cardiff123's post mentions 45 units for TfW but it's actually 62 units (assuming 158833 is undergoing mods), and I'm not saying that the Northern situation is ideal, but with TfW's fleet only being about a third of the size of Northern's it seems to be a much worse situation with TfW

 

[Cardiff123]

And Northern currently need derogations for 8x 150s, 20x 153s, 11x 156s, 3x 158s and 14x 323s (56 units), plus any 142s still required after 31/12/19.

We're going off topic now, but I'm pretty sure that Northern have all the derogations they need granted by the DfT already. TfW Rail are still waiting to hear from the DfT if they have been granted the derogations they need.

 

[anamyd]

We're going off topic now, but I'm pretty sure that Northern have all the derogations they need granted by the DfT already. TfW Rail are still waiting to hear from the DfT if they have been granted the derogations they need.

Supposedly they heard from them by the end of November

 

[507021]

We're going off topic now, but I'm pretty sure that Northern have all the derogations they need granted by the DfT already.

As far as I'm aware, Northern only have a derogation for the 144s, although I believe around 30 142s could get one as well. I don't think the latter's been confirmed yet.

I don't think there's derogations for the remaining Sprinters and 323s either.

 

[anamyd]

https://railcolornews.com/2019/12/04/uk-transport-for-wales-meet-the-fleet/

I got linked this article

Julien Michel of railcolornews.com said:

[UK] Transport for Wales: meet the fleet

While none of them have emerged from the factories yet, and while the only preview we have of Transport for Wales’ future trains is in the form of artist’s impressions, the national transport authority has released the class numbers of the new fleet, so we can now call the trains by their names.

Operated by KeolisAmey, the new-build train fleet (that excludes existing rolling stock transferred from other operators and the Vivarail Class 230 DEMUs built by transforming former London Underground D-Stock trains) will be formed of the following.

Class 197
The Welsh-built Civity UK DMUs, a CAF product, will serve the entire Transport for Wales network, and will be designated Class 197, following the two previous Civity UK DMU classes, 195 (operated by Northern) and 196 (being built for West Midlands Railway).

Class 231
The Stadler Flirt DEMUs, which will operate on the Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, and Cardiff-Cheltenham lines, will be designated as Class 231. These will feature the Stadler “signature” power-pack car, which holds the diesel engine equipment, as found on Greater Anglia’s Class 755 Flirt BMUs.

Class 398
398 is the class number chosen to designate the Stadler-built Citylink tram-trains. This number was chosen as a reverse-follow-up to the existing Class 399 tram-trains, which are also Citylinks but built at the time when this was a Vossloh product, before Stadler bought out part of Vossloh.
These Class 398 tram-trains will stretch their wheels on the Treherbert, Aberdare, and Merthyr lines.

Class 756
Stadler will also build Stadler Flirt TMUs (tri-mode multiple units: diesel, overhead electric, battery electric) for the Rhymney, Coryton, and Vale of Glamorgan lines. These will be known as Class 756s.

This new fleet will enter service in 2022-2023.

 

[sw1ller]

https://railcolornews.com/2019/12/04/uk-transport-for-wales-meet-the-fleet/

I got linked this article

197 will serve the entire network eh! Will look forward to it on the valleys and Wrexham bidstons then

 

[Envoy]

Why bother with the Class 231? Surely, it would be better to just have the entire Stadler Flirts as Class 756 tri-modes? That way, the services to/from Cheltenham could use the overhead wires between Severn Tunnel Junction & Cardiff. They would also be future proof in the event that the wires get extended to say Swansea. As things stand, by ordering the diesel only Class 231, we will already be using them as new under wires = bonkers?

 

[krus_aragon]

Why bother with the Class 231? Surely, it would be better to just have the entire Stadler Flirts as Class 756 tri-modes? That way, the services to/from Cheltenham could use the overhead wires between Severn Tunnel Junction & Cardiff. They would also be future proof in the event that the wires get extended to say Swansea. As things stand, by ordering the diesel only Class 231, we will already be using them as new under wires = bonkers?

I'd guess that the 231 has a greater diesel range than the 756: shove all the extra electrics on board and you'll have smaller fuel tanks.

 

[anamyd]

197 will serve the entire network eh! Will look forward to it on the valleys and Wrexham bidstons then

Yes I thought that was a strange thing to say!

 

[anamyd]

What's baffling is how the fleet of 197s are DMUs not bi model units, at a time of growing emissions etc ! Especially as they will spend a lot of there time running under wires on some routes

If they were bi-modes they wouldn't be 197s or 1-anything I know what you mean though. Although they're Diesel, their engines have SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction / AdBlue exhaust aftertreatment) and meet Stage 5 emissions standards, so are a lot cleaner than the pre-emissions standard 15x units and the Stage 2 175s. Also, in the Senedd recently (Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee - Decarbonisation of Transport - Rail) TfW CEO James Price mentioned that the Diesel power packs of the what are now known as 197s are on rafts, so they can be converted to a different traction type when necessary.

 

[Cardiff123]

Also, in the Senedd recently (Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee - Decarbonisation of Transport - Rail) TfW CEO James Price mentioned that the Diesel power packs of the what are now known as 197s are on rafts, so they can be converted to a different traction type when necessary.

Like what? To the current obsession with fantasy hydrogen? Maybe bionic duckweed?

There's a good article in Modern Railways this month about how a rolling program of OHLE must be on the agenda for the rail network to rid itself of diesel traction. It rightly argues that hydrogen powered trains are a fantasy and for anything other than very short journeys, battery powered trains are as well.

Although I understand why Keolis Amey went with the CAF DMUs they did. With no prospect of there being any more electrification in Wales outside of the Valleys anytime soon, DMUs were the only option.

 

[TRAX]

If they were bi-modes they wouldn't be 197s or 1-anything I know what you mean though. Although they're Diesel, their engines have SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction / AdBlue exhaust aftertreatment) and meet Stage 5 emissions standards, so are a lot cleaner than the pre-emissions standard 15x units and the Stage 2 175s. Also, in the Senedd recently (Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee - Decarbonisation of Transport - Rail) TfW CEO James Price mentioned that the Diesel power packs of the what are now known as 197s are on rafts, so they can be converted to a different traction type when necessary.

Stage 5 already ?

 

[anamyd]

Stage 5 already ?

That's what I heard, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though

 

[sw1ller]

I’m sure this has been covered elsewhere. But what’s stage 5 compared to a car/lorry’s Euro4/5/6?

 

[anamyd]

I’m sure this has been covered elsewhere. But what’s stage 5 compared to a car/lorry’s Euro4/5/6?

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/nonroad.php

Non-road (covers rail vehicle engines and any other non-road engines, from article linked above):

Stage I implemented in 1999 and Stage II implemented from 2001 to 2004, depending on the engine power output. (170s and 175s are somewhere around here)

Stage III standards—which are further divided into Stages IIIA and IIIB—are phased-in from 2006 to 2013, Stage IV enter into force in 2014.

Stage V. The standards are effective from 2019 (for rail vehicle engines). (TfW's new stock with Diesel engines will meet these I'm guessing)

Road (buses and lorries but similar for cars, from memory / previous research):

I - ~1993
II - ~1997
III - ~2001
IV - ~2006
V - ~2009
VI - ~2014 (with loophole that allows V engines to continue production in small volumes; has been done with Optare buses and also the old-style E200)

 

[sw1ller]

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/nonroad.php

Non-road (covers rail vehicle engines and any other non-road engines, from article linked above):

Stage I implemented in 1999 and Stage II implemented from 2001 to 2004, depending on the engine power output. (170s and 175s are somewhere around here)

Stage III standards—which are further divided into Stages IIIA and IIIB—are phased-in from 2006 to 2013, Stage IV enter into force in 2014.

Stage V. The standards are effective from 2019 (for rail vehicle engines). (TfW's new stock with Diesel engines will meet these I'm guessing)

Road (buses and lorries but similar for cars, from memory / previous research):

I - ~1993
II - ~1997
III - ~2001
IV - ~2006
V - ~2009
VI - ~2014 (with loophole that allows V engines to continue production in small volumes; has been done with Optare buses and also the old-style E200)

thanks for that anamyd, I did look up the years but was hoping there was some kind of emissions table that compares somewhat. I’m assuming it’s far more complex than emissions alone too, I was kind of looking for a direct comparison. Or is it like comparing apples with kangaroos?

 

[Domh245]

thanks for that anamyd, I did look up the years but was hoping there was some kind of emissions table that compares somewhat. I’m assuming it’s far more complex than emissions alone too, I was kind of looking for a direct comparison. Or is it like comparing apples with kangaroos?

Slightly apples to kangaroos as the heavy duty definitions are given in g/kWh rather than g/km, and nonroad has different categories for different power outputs, etc, but putting some conversions* on and comparing:

*assumed 1.2t car & 3.5t LCV - assuming that my maths is correct!

 

[anamyd]

thanks for that anamyd, I did look up the years but was hoping there was some kind of emissions table that compares somewhat. I’m assuming it’s far more complex than emissions alone too, I was kind of looking for a direct comparison. Or is it like comparing apples with kangaroos?

no worries and thanks @Domh245

 

[tomuk]

Rail engines sold after 31st Dec 2020 will need to be Euro V. There are certain exemptions for existing designs. So depending on when the 197s are actually ordered/built they could be Euro IIIb or V.
The emissions from a IIIb and a V engine are similar with main improvement being a reduction in particulates.

Regarding James Price's comments about the ability to re-engine the 197s because they are fitted with rafts. All DMUs since the 158s have had engine rafts it is just the way they are made now.
It is a shame that the Hybrid version of the MTU 1800 series power pack hasn't be chosen they are available now and would reduce emissions even further.

 

[anamyd]

Rail engines sold after 31st Dec 2020 will need to be Euro V. There are certain exemptions for existing designs. So depending on when the 197s are actually ordered/built they could be Euro IIIb or V.
The emissions from a IIIb and a V engine are similar with main improvement being a reduction in particulates.

Regarding James Price's comments about the ability to re-engine the 197s because they are fitted with rafts. All DMUs since the 158s have had engine rafts it is just the way they are made now.
It is a shame that the Hybrid version of the MTU 1800 series power pack hasn't be chosen they are available now and would reduce emissions even further.

thanks for the info

 

[Rhydgaled]

What's baffling is how the fleet of 197s are DMUs not bi model units, at a time of growing emissions etc ! Especially as they will spend a lot of there time running under wires on some routes

Not all that much of the routes are under wires actually; given that a bi-mode will be slightly heavier than a DMU would it actually save greenhouse gas emissions? Buying new DMUs still seems mad though. I started a topic on this a while back.

There are routes were a bimodel with pantograph would be ideal that TFW units run over, Wbq to Manchester / Crewe to Manchester / Wolverhampton to Birmingham / Crewe to Birmingham via Stafford.

Are any of those sufficent to actually save fuel overall? If the wires were extended from Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury though Aberystwyth-Birmingham starts to look like a very obvious case for a bi-mode I think.

Rail engines sold after 31st Dec 2020 will need to be Euro V. There are certain exemptions for existing designs. So depending on when the 197s are actually ordered/built they could be Euro IIIb or V.

The rolling stock tables on the Transport for Wales website say the new DMUs would be stage V. I also have an e-mail from TfW saying it would be an 84% reduction in NOx and 90% reduction in particulates when compared to the inherited fleet. However they also say that there would be a fairly significant fuel saving, which I find a little hard to believe having read somewhere that cleaning up bus emissions led to more fuel being burnt compared to older, 'dirtier', buses.

Like what? To the current obsession with fantasy hydrogen? Maybe bionic duckweed?

The e-mail from TfW refered to above says "as traction technology and the supply chain for hydrogen fuel becomes more available and cost effective, we will consider implementing them on the new DMU’s later in the contract." So yes, they have a hydrogen fantasy; or are the HydroFlex/Breeze only putting the gear above the floor so it is easier to modify (given that they are prototypes) and not because it cannot fit within the UK loading guage (I know Alstom has a working hydrogen train in mainland Europe)?

Is the biggest fantasy the idea that they could modify the 197s at a later date? Surely if they were serious about not being diesel for life they would have specified DEMUs (with the wheels driven by electric motors rather than mechanical transmission, so that the electricity to drive them could come from various sources without having to throw away the mechanical transmission at some point in the future) to facilitate easier conversion? Who will actually own the 197s; have they considered the risk of being unable to lease them after 2033? Or is there a contractral protection on them stating that future operators must continue to lease them?

Although I understand why Keolis Amey went with the CAF DMUs they did. With no prospect of there being any more electrification in Wales outside of the Valleys anytime soon, DMUs were the only option.

DMUs weren't the only option though. Diesel as a power source was (and still is), but it could be DEMUs (with or without batteries and/or a pantograph for potential fuel savings).

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Who said the 197s are the ones they're considering for hydrogen? The 231s are DEMUs and by having a generator car are very, very easy to add hydrogen capability to once it becomes viable!

 

[sw1ller]

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/01/uk-first-vivarail-runs-battery-train-for-40-miles.html

Vivarail has announced that their Class 230 battery train has achieved a UK first by travelling 40 miles on battery power alone.

Testing runs through the autumn saw the train run reliably many times for 40 miles.

The Class 230 battery train is now fully approved and ready for passenger service.

I may have messed up this link thing, so I apologise if I have, but this sounds promising. Could easily get to Birkenhead and back on that.