Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[krus_aragon]

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2020/01/uk-first-vivarail-runs-battery-train-for-40-miles.html

Vivarail has announced that their Class 230 battery train has achieved a UK first by travelling 40 miles on battery power alone.

Testing runs through the autumn saw the train run reliably many times for 40 miles.

The Class 230 battery train is now fully approved and ready for passenger service.

I may have messed up this link thing, so I apologise if I have, but this sounds promising. Could easily get to Birkenhead and back on that.

Link works fine at my end. I'm just disappointed that it didn't happen to be news about where TfW's 230s have got to.

 

[Bob Price]

Agree, I am a massive fan of the 230 project but can't get my head round why these are taking so long to even bring to test.

 

[John R]

See also:-

http://vivarail.co.uk/40-miles-on-battery-power-a-uk-first-for-vivarail/

In particular:-

With a new type of battery which we will use in our upcoming production trains we are confidently predicting a range of 60 miles between charges with only a 10 minute charge time. We look forward to providing emission-free trains and playing a significant part in decarbonising the UK’s rail network.

Several months ago they were stating 60 miles and 7 minutes to charge as a given. So far they've managed 40 miles, but will be using a different type of battery in the production trains that may do 60 miles and will need 10 mins to recharge. A new type in the production version. Hmmm...

I'd almost read between the lines as the battery we've been using didn't achieve what we expected, but we're sure the next one will. And as for 7 mins to 10 minutes - doesn't sound a lot, but in the context of turnaround times on branches, it could be. And we've yet to see whether even 10 minutes is achievable.

 

[D365]

And as for 7 mins to 10 minutes - doesn't sound a lot, but in the context of turnaround times on branches, it could be. And we've yet to see whether even 10 minutes is achievable.

Interesting; eighteen months ago, I was told it could be done in six minutes at each turnaround. Since then, they've obviously moved from Valence/LithiumWerks to Saft as the battery partner, but I don't know what else has gone on behind the scenes.

However this isn't relevant to the TfW Class 230s; the best way of describing the operation of those units, is that they are more akin to a Prius hybrid car.

 

[samuelmorris]

Interesting; eighteen months ago, I was told it could be done in six minutes at each turnaround. Since then, they've obviously moved from Valence/LithiumWerks to Saft as the battery partner, but I don't know what else has gone on behind the scenes.

However this isn't relevant to the TfW Class 230s; the best way of describing the operation of those units, is that they are more akin to a Prius hybrid car.

Or better yet, other diesel electric multiple units like Voyagers or Thumpers...

 

[John R]

Or better yet, other diesel electric multiple units like Voyagers or Thumpers...

No, Prius is better, as they will have a battery, and the expectation is that it will be used. I agree it's not completely relevant, but the fact that they are changing the spec of the battery to be used in the production trains (does that include the TfW units - it's not clear) smacks of testing in the live environment to use an IT analogy. We've seen from the teething troubles with the Marston Vale sets that a bit more rigorous testing wouldn't go amiss, something they have admitted.

 

[D365]

Or better yet, other diesel electric multiple units like Voyagers or Thumpers...

Which don’t have traction batteries, hence my Prius analogy. The Class 230s for Wales use battery electric power for acceleration up till around 30mph (IIRC).

 

[samuelmorris]

Sorry, it's been so long I thought I was still in the West Midlands thread. Fair, the Prius analogy is perfectly valid for the Wales units.

 

[Rustypacer]

I believe some of the TFW stock has gone to either Northern or EMR as I have seen a 2 car 156 in Grimsby last night, unliveried white with red doors. unfortunately didn't manage to get the number.

 

[Domh245]

I believe some of the TFW stock has gone to either Northern or EMR as I have seen a 2 car 156 in Grimsby last night, unliveried white with red doors. unfortunately didn't manage to get the number.

That was an ex Greater Anglia unit, all of their 156s have gone to EMR until they replace their local DMUs with 170s

 

[anamyd]

I believe some of the TFW stock has gone to either Northern or EMR as I have seen a 2 car 156 in Grimsby last night, unliveried white with red doors. unfortunately didn't manage to get the number.

It's an ex-Greater Anglia 156. Neither TfW nor ATW ever had any 156s.

 

[krus_aragon]

Moreover, while Greater Anglia have sent 153s and 170s in TfW's direction, they didn't send them any 156s (no TfW staff are trained on them).

 

[43096]

I believe some of the TFW stock has gone to either Northern or EMR as I have seen a 2 car 156 in Grimsby last night, unliveried white with red doors. unfortunately didn't manage to get the number.

TfW have not released any units and certainly haven’t off leased any 156s as they haven’t got any.

 

[TheWalrus]

Are the new 231 DEMUs going to be bi-mode or have the capability of having a pantograph fitted? Some pictures sugest they will But nothing seems to confirm either way. I’m assuming they will be only diesel powered.

 

[baffobear]

TfW have not released any units and certainly haven’t off leased any 156s as they haven’t got any.

The 156s are ex-Greater Anglia. Some of the 153s that TFW have gained are also ex-Greater Anglia

 

[43096]

The 156s are ex-Greater Anglia. Some of the 153s that TFW have gained are also ex-Greater Anglia

I'm well aware of that: the post I was referring to specifically stated 156s ex-TfW.

 

[samuelmorris]

Are the new 231 DEMUs going to be bi-mode or have the capability of having a pantograph fitted? Some pictures sugest they will But nothing seems to confirm either way. I’m assuming they will be only diesel powered.

They will probably have the capability of having pantographs fitted but will not have them to begin with.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

IIRC I saw somewhere they will have the wells, it would be pointless not to!

In theory adding a pantograph just turns them into 756s no?

 

[Adlee Turner]

IIRC I saw somewhere they will have the wells, it would be pointless not to!

In theory adding a pantograph just turns them into 756s no?

Not quite because the 756s will be Tri-mode trains whereas the 231s will be diesel-electric trains. The only difference is the batteries that will be fitted to the 756s

 

[TheWalrus]

Not quite because the 756s will be Tri-mode trains whereas the 231s will be diesel-electric trains. The only difference is the batteries that will be fitted to the 756s

IIRC I saw somewhere they will have the wells, it would be pointless not to!

In theory adding a pantograph just turns them into 756s no?

Not sure but it would make sense to have pantographs as there are many sections of electrified track across the network.

Would it be cheaper to build them with pantographs than to add them later? I remember converting the Voyagers was considered too expensive.

 

[Domh245]

Voyagers are a bit different as each vehicle is primarily independent, the engine on that vehicle feeds it's own traction equipment whereas the FLIRTs will have the traction equipment at either end fed from the central engine pod. I would expect (hope!) that the construction should make retrofitting Pantographs and transformers relatively easy, but we won't know until they arrive I suppose! It is quite shameful that amid all the talk about needing to decarbonise they aren't coming with pantographs, especially as they have electric transmissions. Less inexcusable than the mechanical transmissions on the CAFs though...

 

[TheWalrus]

Voyagers are a bit different as each vehicle is primarily independent, the engine on that vehicle feeds it's own traction equipment whereas the FLIRTs will have the traction equipment at either end fed from the central engine pod. I would expect (hope!) that the construction should make retrofitting Pantographs and transformers relatively easy, but we won't know until they arrive I suppose! It is quite shameful that amid all the talk about needing to decarbonise they aren't coming with pantographs, especially as they have electric transmissions. Less inexcusable than the mechanical transmissions on the CAFs though...

Personally I think all new stock should be electric, bi-mode or tri-mode, no more new diesel-only stock.

 

[jopsuk]

Personally I think all new stock should be electric, bi-mode or tri-mode, no more new diesel-only stock.

That, on a national level, was the plan before electrification got scaled back yet again. The great "rolling programme of electrification" that included the Electric Spine, Swansea etc.

 

[TheWalrus]

That, on a national level, was the plan before electrification got scaled back yet again. The great "rolling programme of electrification" that included the Electric Spine, Swansea etc.

I think a rolling programme would be the best thing to happen. Then you can use one lot of equipment/labour etc. and just do each bit at a time working your way around the network.

However like I have stated before, I don’t see it being very efficient electrifying to Swansea for only 1 tph. IMO my priorities would be Chiltern and Snow Hill lines, Didcot-Oxford, Reading-Basingstoke, Slough-Windsor, Valley Lines and maybe Twyford-Henley. Anything 3/4 tph and above I would consider electrifying.

 

[Adlee Turner]

Not sure but it would make sense to have pantographs as there are many sections of electrified track across the network.

Would it be cheaper to build them with pantographs than to add them later? I remember converting the Voyagers was considered too expensive.

I was under the impression that they were having pantographs fitted on the 756s and 231s anyway?

 

[craigybagel]

Personally I think all new stock should be electric, bi-mode or tri-mode, no more new diesel-only stock.

But with a lot of the TfW stock, you're going to end up wasting extra fuel carrying the extra weight of all the electrical equipment around when it would be rarely if ever used. That's not going to be great for the environment either.

 

[TheWalrus]

But with a lot of the TfW stock, you're going to end up wasting extra fuel carrying the extra weight of all the electrical equipment around when it would be rarely if ever used. That's not going to be great for the environment either.

True, would have to weigh it up whether it’s worth it for the sake of 30-40 miles of electric track.

 

[Envoy]

I thought that the TfW FLIRTS were going to come with Pantographs so they could use overhead wires going north of Queen Street up the Rhymney Line? Aren’t they also going to be used on the Cheltenham to south Wales stoppers as well - meaning they could use the overhead wires between STJ and Cardiff?

 

[Envoy]

I think a rolling programme would be the best thing to happen. Then you can use one lot of equipment/labour etc. and just do each bit at a time working your way around the network.

However like I have stated before, I don’t see it being very efficient electrifying to Swansea for only 1 tph. IMO my priorities would be Chiltern and Snow Hill lines, Didcot-Oxford, Reading-Basingstoke, Slough-Windsor, Valley Lines and maybe Twyford-Henley. Anything 3/4 tph and above I would consider electrifying.

At peak times, it is one GWR IET every half hour in and out of Swansea. In addition, had Cardiff to Swansea been electrified, then the TfW stoppers would also surely have been electric? Ideally, these stoppers might have gone all the way from Swansea to Bristol TM / Bath using electricity. It might even have swung things in favour of having the Manchester to west Wales trains as bi-mode being they would be under the wires between Manchester & Crewe and Newport & Swansea.

 

[Dai Corner]

At peak times, it is one GWR IET every half hour in and out of Swansea. In addition, had Cardiff to Swansea been electrified, then the TfW stoppers would also surely have been electric? Ideally, these stoppers might have gone all the way from Swansea to Bristol TM / Bath using electricity. It might even have swung things in favour of having the Manchester to west Wales trains as bi-mode being they would be under the wires between Manchester & Crewe and Newport & Swansea.

I've been saying for ages that if the Welsh Government has specified bi-modes for those services the case for Cardiff-Swansea electrification would have been much better. It's too late now, unfortunately.