Labour could be planning to allow public sector to bid for franchises

[HSTEd]

Which is just as likely to happen under the current system than under BR.

 

[yorksrob]

Which is just as likely to happen under the current system than under BR.

Indeed. It is always a danger.

 

[David Barrett]

Indeed. It is always a danger.

I'd say, reading the passage pointed out by yourself here and others elsewhere on the forum in the Northern/Trans Pennine franchise consultation, more of a certainty.

 

[yorksrob]

I'd say, reading the passage pointed out by yourself here and others elsewhere on the forum in the Northern/Trans Pennine franchise consultation, more of a certainty.

Hopefully enough people will kick up enough of a stink to make them regret ever considering it.

 

[SWTCommuter]

Rather than rely on hearsay, here's the official graph

Er, official? It was compiled and uploaded to Wikipedia by an anonymous individual with no mention of the sources used. I may be missing something but I'm slightly puzzled by the label on the y axis. It seems to imply that there are currently 1500 million rail passengers in the UK, outnumbering the general population by around 22 to 1. Perhaps it should read passenger journeys per year or passenger miles per year?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It seems to imply that there are currently 1500 million rail passengers in the UK, outnumbering the general population by around 22 to 1. Perhaps it should read passenger journeys per year or passenger miles per year?

You are not alone in noticing that particular matter.

 

[Simon11]

It is passenger journeys.

 

[Deerfold]

Er, official? It was compiled and uploaded to Wikipedia by an anonymous individual with no mention of the sources used. I may be missing something but I'm slightly puzzled by the label on the y axis. It seems to imply that there are currently 1500 million rail passengers in the UK, outnumbering the general population by around 22 to 1. Perhaps it should read passenger journeys per year or passenger miles per year?

If you click on the graph it lists its sources (even if the filename is spelt incorrectly):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GBR_rail_passenegers_by_year.gif

I'm guessing figures from ATOC and the ORR are as official as you're going to get.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you click on the graph it lists its sources (even if the filename is spelt incorrectly):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GBR_rail_passenegers_by_year.gif

I'm guessing figures from ATOC and the ORR are as official as you're going to get.

The use of the mis-spelt word "passenegers" in a large font size heading is usually a sign of a less-than-professional approach that makes one worry.

 

[Clip]

Its a jolly good soundbyte and one that will ring well with those who want a for nationalisation of the railways but there would be extreme pressure on the government to be seen to be awarding the franchise to the public sector and the bid would have to be of the highest calibre and open to extreme scrutiny to ensaure that there were no cries of foul play a-la Virgin debacle and the same would go if they still awarded it to the private secotr.

Also they would have to be very hands off so as not to be seen to be giving an unfair advantage and maybe passing over details of other bids to the public sectors bid too just so they could win it.

And as has probably been aluded to earlier - DOR running EC on a nice line is very different from running a high frequency many multiple route like SouthEastern. And if they got it wrong they would be pounced on by those who would be able to sit there and say 'we told you the govt cant run the railways properly' and it would be far louder than the cries you here about the private sector are now - in fact the media would be relentless.

Be careful what you wish for because you cant just base it being good as to how good DOR are doing of the job right now.

 

[Deerfold]

The use of the mis-spelt word "passenegers" in a large font size heading is usually a sign of a less-than-professional approach that makes one worry.

Indeed, but it's only like that because the file name is spelt incorrectly and you're looking at the details behind it. On the original graph "passengers" is spelt correctly.

 

[Muzer]

Its a jolly good soundbyte and one that will ring well with those who want a for nationalisation of the railways but there would be extreme pressure on the government to be seen to be awarding the franchise to the public sector and the bid would have to be of the highest calibre and open to extreme scrutiny to ensaure that there were no cries of foul play a-la Virgin debacle and the same would go if they still awarded it to the private secotr.

Also they would have to be very hands off so as not to be seen to be giving an unfair advantage and maybe passing over details of other bids to the public sectors bid too just so they could win it.

And as has probably been aluded to earlier - DOR running EC on a nice line is very different from running a high frequency many multiple route like SouthEastern. And if they got it wrong they would be pounced on by those who would be able to sit there and say 'we told you the govt cant run the railways properly' and it would be far louder than the cries you here about the private sector are now - in fact the media would be relentless.

Be careful what you wish for because you cant just base it being good as to how good DOR are doing of the job right now.

DOR *did* run SouthEastern at one point. I wasn't an enthusiast at the time - what's the general consensus for how well they did? No major cock-ups I trust?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I thought large swathes of our railways were already owned by the public sector...... the German public sector

 

[muddythefish]

I thought large swathes of our railways were already owned by the public sector...... the German public sector

Correct, just another example of the hypocrisies and inconsistencies of the British "privatisation".

 

[Gareth Marston]

I thought large swathes of our railways were already owned by the public sector...... the German public sector

Don't forget the Dutch and French too but Johnny Foreigners remit is not to run it as a public service for the good of us Brits but to extract profit to send back to improve their own services!
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Its a jolly good soundbyte and one that will ring well with those who want a for nationalisation of the railways but there would be extreme pressure on the government to be seen to be awarding the franchise to the public sector and the bid would have to be of the highest calibre and open to extreme scrutiny to ensaure that there were no cries of foul play a-la Virgin debacle and the same would go if they still awarded it to the private secotr.

Also they would have to be very hands off so as not to be seen to be giving an unfair advantage and maybe passing over details of other bids to the public sectors bid too just so they could win it.

And as has probably been aluded to earlier - DOR running EC on a nice line is very different from running a high frequency many multiple route like SouthEastern. And if they got it wrong they would be pounced on by those who would be able to sit there and say 'we told you the govt cant run the railways properly' and it would be far louder than the cries you here about the private sector are now - in fact the media would be relentless.

Be careful what you wish for because you cant just base it being good as to how good DOR are doing of the job right now.

Don't think anyone seriously wants this scenario.

 

[sprinterguy]

DOR *did* run SouthEastern at one point. I wasn't an enthusiast at the time - what's the general consensus for how well they did? No major cock-ups I trust?

Of course, Connex were made to "hand back" the South Central franchise too. I'm not from the area at all, but I remember the news stories at the time and the Government (I don't think that "Directly Operated Railways" had been set up as an entity at the time? It's a far more recent development initially set up to handle the East Coast debacle, I thought) certainly seemed to do a better job with South Eastern than Connex ever did with either of their two franchises!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought large swathes of our railways were already owned by the public sector...... the German public sector

An excellent reason to give the franchise operators in this country more of a free hand: They know how to run a railway in Germany. Shame that more of DBs' native thinking hasn't translated over to their British rail franchises.

 

[Muzer]

Of course, Connex were made to "hand back" the South Central franchise too. I'm not from the area at all, but I remember the news stories at the time and the Government (I don't think that "Directly Operated Railways" had been set up as an entity at the time? It's a far more recent development initially set up to handle the East Coast debacle, I thought) certainly seemed to do a better job with South Eastern than Connex ever did with either of their two franchises!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An excellent reason to give the franchise operators in this country more of a free hand: They know how to run a railway in Germany. Shame that more of DBs' native thinking hasn't translated over to their British rail franchises.

Good point - just checked on Wikipedia, they were run by the SRA (Strategic Rail Authority). No idea if any of the managers are now in DOR or what.

 

[455driver]

So one government department will let another government department (DOR) spend £1million submitting a bid to run a franchise.
There will be one of two outcomes to this-
1) DOR win the franchise and all the other bidders cry foul because the government department making the decision has shown preference for another government department.
2) DOR dont win the franchise and so Labour (or whoever is in opposition at the time) cry foul about a government department wasting £1million of our money on this failed bid.

Yeah brilliant idea, heads they win, tails you lose.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I thought large swathes of our railways were already owned by the public sector...... the German public sector

But the German taxpayers do not pay the UK franchise subsidies.
Does anybody really think that the German government is in any way interested in UK transport policy or have any influence over it?
They are speculative investments by arms-length public corporations, and operate within UK regulation.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

But the German taxpayers do not pay the UK franchise subsidies.
Does anybody really think that the German government is in any way interested in UK transport policy or have any influence over it?
They are speculative investments by arms-length public corporations, and operate within UK regulation.

Eventually, when the EU dictates all policy among the member states, the German government will probably be writing it.

and on a lighter note (as in light rail) would Nottingham City transport be allowed to compete to operate trams in Hannover ?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

So one government department will let another government department (DOR) spend £1million submitting a bid to run a franchise.
There will be one of two outcomes to this-
1) DOR win the franchise and all the other bidders cry foul because the government department making the decision has shown preference for another government department.
2) DOR dont win the franchise and so Labour (or whoever is in opposition at the time) cry foul about a government department wasting £1million of our money on this failed bid.

Yeah brilliant idea, heads they win, tails you lose.

Which is why I believe this idea of DOR biding for franchises using public money against private operators is an ill thought out Labour fudge that won't work in practice. Either we stick with the current franchising system or we have a fully nationalised operator like BR, anything in between just won't work.

If re-nationalisation is so popular amongst the public then the question should be "Why is Ed Milliband so reluctant to go for it?" Is he afraid of being labelled as Red Ed by the right wing press? I really carn't understand what Labour stands to lose on this one.

 

[muz379]

So one government department will let another government department (DOR) spend £1million submitting a bid to run a franchise.
There will be one of two outcomes to this-
1) DOR win the franchise and all the other bidders cry foul because the government department making the decision has shown preference for another government department.
2) DOR dont win the franchise and so Labour (or whoever is in opposition at the time) cry foul about a government department wasting £1million of our money on this failed bid.

Yeah brilliant idea, heads they win, tails you lose.

This , Im in favor or re nationalization (at least I think I am )

But this is not a sensible method of renationalisation
Surely if we did follow this course of renationalisation there will reach a point when private sector will not be able to compete with DOO because it will be running that many franchises it will be able to do it more efficiently than any TOC .

Take for example Manchester Piccadilly if DOO operated both Northern and TPE you wouldn't need two lots of middle managers in the traincrew depot and two lots of customer service staff/dispatchers on the platforms etc etc . Would the private sector running the franchises separately be able to do it as efficiently .

 

[455driver]

As we are onto a Nationalised railway again, it would be very easy to accomplish, as the franchises run out let DOR take them over, job done, no expensive buy outs etc.

Then they would have to sort out the trains which would be stupidly expensive to buy up simply because of the fanciful way the stock is valued, hell a 150 can be valued higher than a premier league footballer (both use the same valuation criteria ) so the government would have to sort out a different way of financing any new stock to put a stop to the very expensive leasing costs maybe by building the stock in our own factories just like BR used to do. But then all their mates would lose too much money if the current expensive system was scrapped so it could never happen!

Anyway thats enough of my dreaming!

 

[David Barrett]

Indeed, party politics are involved, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Mark62]

This will require a change to the current legislation. Its ludicrous that at present public companies from Europe can bid for franchises and yet ours cannot.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, party politics are involved, what could possibly go wrong?

Say if Unison had succeeded with a bid for a franchise, would no trains have been running in the one-day strike that took place this week ?

 

[Moonshot]

Say if Unison had succeeded with a bid for a franchise, would no trains have been running in the one-day strike that took place this week ?

I ve mentioned this before.....

The short answer would be no.....ie trains would have continued to run. In theory, there is nothing to stop Unions bidding for a franchise in their own right, and in fact I seem to remember ASLEF actually making a symbolic bid for the East Coast Franchise not so many moons ago.....
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This will require a change to the current legislation. Its ludicrous that at present public companies from Europe can bid for franchises and yet ours cannot.

I think you will find that National Express have won 2 contracts to run regional rail services in Germany

 

[Jonny]

2) DOR dont win the franchise and so Labour (or whoever is in opposition at the time) cry foul about a government department wasting £1million of our money on this failed bid.

The trouble is, that according to Labour's flawed interpretation of (already intrinsically flawed) Keynesian Economic theory, the "wasted" money would be an investment. Obviously that would only happen with a Labour government.

 

[jon0844]

It would be great to see a union win a franchise and then have to make it work, seeing things from both sides.

 

[Emyr]

Nothing wrong with Keynesian Economic theory.

I'd rather waste £1m paying 40 extra public sector staff than put that £1m into a private sector chief exec's bonus. The ways the former would spend their money would keep a larger portion circulating through the economy and they would be far less likely to merely accumulate "wealth".