Late connection on Advance ticket at Manchester

[455driver]

I wasn't, I think I will just leave the answers up to the pedants in future, that way they can add whatever circumstances onto the OPs question to make their answer correct!

 

[bb21]

Not true. There is no requirement for a passenger to actually get their ticket endorsed. This is becoming something of a misconception and I hope it doesn't leak over into the minds of staff on the network. I say it is not a requirement because acceptance measures may have been communicated to staff by the control centre of their TOC. E.g. Friend of mine was traveling from Euston to Liverpool on a LM Only ticket. Gets to Stafford and due to severe delay on the arrival from EUS, he was advised by platform staff something like: "customers with LM tickets are allowed to catch the next VT to Liverpool" When he double checked he was told that the control centre had authorised it.

No one is talking about severe delays or where special arrangements have been made eg. ticket acceptance being arranged at the company level. The case under consideration is the general case where there is disruption.

The passenger cannot just assume that he will be conveyed on the next service. Without any ticket endorsement, he will need to seek the permission of the train manager in order to travel.

There are provisions in place for train companies to do their best to convey passengers regardless of TOC restrictions of tickets held in order to minimise delays, but this only applies when there is severe disruption, typically 60 minutes or longer. This is a very small subset of the general scenario.

Similarly ticket acceptance being arranged at company level also forms a very small subset of cases.

Speaking generally, the requirement set out by 455driver is correct.

 

[Bungle]

On the subject of cross-acceptance:

Once travelled Chesterfield - Manchester Airport on an EMT Advance, changing at Piccadilly; it was cancelled (due to staff shortages, according to the station PA.)

The ticket office said to board the next departure to Sheffield and change there for the xx:11 TPE to the airport. I specifically asked at the ticket office if the ticket needed to be endorsed to travel with TPE and the member of staff replied "nah, it's fine". There were a fair few people in the same position, and the TPE guard accepted the EMT tickets without question.

This was not a major disruption, just one service cancelled, and it was the middle of the day (no "last one of the day" issues.)

Is it possibly the case that on some routes, for example Sheffield - Manchester where two TOCs operate a regular service (three if you include the Northern stopper), cross-acceptance is effectively pre-agreed without need for endorsement, as long as the control centre have made the guard aware of a cancellation or disruption to a previous service? Obviously as a regular passenger you can't be expected to just know, but the way guard accepted everyone's tickets without comment suggested it's not an uncommon procedure.

Or was this a one-off, and we just happened to get lucky with a lenient guard?

 

[gray1404]

"The passenger cannot just assume that he will be conveyed on the next service. "

No, if you are delayed and you miss a connection, you are entitled to board the next service running - keeping of course with any restriction on the Advance ticket (such as TOC(s) or route). You certainly do not need to go asking permission. It is your contractual right.

You certainly do not need to go begging a guard to merely get what you have paid for, and if the connecting service was delayed and it is the next service, how in any way is the guard even entitled to say no.

If you are traveling on a different TOC to that on the ticket or different route and there is no mutual acceptance in place, then it is a different matter.

A LM service I often travel on is delayed and I miss my connection at Stafford and I miss my connection on my next "reserved" service on my Advance. I certainly do not do asking permission to board the next LM service or getting my ticket marked. I simply board the next LM service and say (very simple in few words) something like: "I've had to get on this train because my previous connection from [station] was delayed." Never had any problems and at the end of the day, I've paid for that and the TOC has let me down.

If I wanted to then say switch to getting a VT service from Stafford then that is a different matter and I would need some sort of permission.

 

[bb21]

"The passenger cannot just assume that he will be conveyed on the next service. "

No, if you are delayed and you miss a connection, you are entitled to board the next service running - keeping of course with any restriction on the Advance ticket (such as TOC(s) or route). You certainly do not need to go asking permission. It is your contractual right.

You certainly do not need to go begging a guard to merely get what you have paid for, and if the connecting service was delayed and it is the next service, how in any way is the guard even entitled to say no.

If you are traveling on a different TOC to that on the ticket or different route and there is no mutual acceptance in place, then it is a different matter.

A LM service I often travel on is delayed and I miss my connection at Stafford and I miss my connection on my next "reserved" service on my Advance. I certainly do not do asking permission to board the next LM service or getting my ticket marked. I simply board the next LM service and say (very simple in few words) something like: "I've had to get on this train because my previous connection from [station] was delayed." Never had any problems and at the end of the day, I've paid for that and the TOC has let me down.

If I wanted to then say switch to getting a VT service from Stafford then that is a different matter and I would need some sort of permission.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing? You disagreed, then proceeded to say exactly the same thing as the other person, and you did exactly the same thing with 455driver's post. Are you actually reading what people are saying?

 

[gray1404]

Are you agreeing or disagreeing? You disagreed, then proceeded to say exactly the same thing as the other person, and you did exactly the same thing with 455driver's post. Are you actually reading what people are saying?

In short, I am saying that there is not actual requirement for a customer to get their ticket endorsed to be able to travel on the next "appropriate" service, if they miss a connection on an Advance ticket due to a train delay.

 

[Starmill]

Good. That has been very clearly established now.

 

[bb21]

In short, I am saying that there is not actual requirement for a customer to get their ticket endorsed to be able to travel on the next "appropriate" service, if they miss a connection on an Advance ticket due to a train delay.

That was not what was originally being discussed.

You wrongly challenged 455driver's post, and mine. Quite simple really.

 

[yorkie]

In short, I am saying that there is not actual requirement for a customer to get their ticket endorsed to be able to travel on the next "appropriate" service, if they miss a connection on an Advance ticket due to a train delay.

I agree; if it is the same TOC (or an "appropriate connection").

If it is not the same TOC, the rules are ambiguous so I'd always advise showing the tickets to a member of rail staff as appropriate (for example if the ticket office is open, the ticket office would be your best bet. Failing that on-board staff or a help point), and simply ask for advice on what alternative trains to catch. If advised not to catch the same train then I advise complying with this (this may increase the level of compensation that would otherwise be due, if you were permitted to take the next train).

 

[gray1404]

I'd like to applogise for misreading some of the posts. I've been reading on the go at times and I see how I've misread the finer detail and wanted to say sorry for that!

I see now where the confusion set in. So if your sticking to the same route/TOC then no need to get the ticket endorsed. However, if going off-route or with a different TOC then what was being said is to get the ticket endorsed. I'd agree that is an option, also asking permission from the guard or even platform staff.

Of course special arrangements may apply if there is disruption, including messages passed down from the TOC control centres and mutual acceptance etc...

Sorry again for my oversights and I hope this has cleared those misunderstandings up now, friends

I like Yorkies suggestion to just ask "which trains should I take" or words to that effect.

Asking ticket office still would be the best thing to do in terms of getting the most correct information, and also them being able to give you all your "new" trains through to your destination. I've also had them give me a print out too which is useful to have to hand. In personal experience, although it is the most correct information it is always "by the book (9 out of 10 times)" which may not work to your advantage of your wanting to catch a train you'd not normally be able to get on your Advance. Guards I find are more likely to say yes. Platform staff more likely to say "ask the guard."

 

[bb21]

No need to apologise. I suspected as much that you read too much into those posts but we were all essentially saying the same thing.

That said I was probably a bit off myself today for some reason so might have come across as a bit aggressive reading back.

 

[SephenWorceste]

I had a slight variation on this situation. I had an Advance ticket for a Friday evening Euston to Birmingham Virgin train. My booked train was delayed by a train fault. It became obvious that the next later Virgin train would depart before my booked train. I went for this later train and spoke to the train manager before boarding. He agreed I could travel on this train. He did not seem to want me on his train. My booked train had not been cancelled. It was just delayed and departed eventually about an hour late. Did I have the right (without seeking permission) to be on the wrong train (same company) when my booked train was still going to run? As a result I was half an hour late to Birmingham rather than a hour.

Thank you, Stephen.

 

[Deerfold]

I had a slight variation on this situation. I had an Advance ticket for a Friday evening Euston to Birmingham Virgin train. My booked train was delayed by a train fault. It became obvious that the next later Virgin train would depart before my booked train. I went for this later train and spoke to the train manager before boarding. He agreed I could travel on this train. He did not seem to want me on his train. My booked train had not been cancelled. It was just delayed and departed eventually about an hour late. Did I have the right (without seeking permission) to be on the wrong train (same company) when my booked train was still going to run? As a result I was half an hour late to Birmingham rather than a hour.

Thank you, Stephen.

My train on VTEC east coast last Thursday was the 1803 which left Kings's Cross at 1851 amid much disruption. Several announcements were made that if you had an advance ticket only those for the 1803 would be accepted. When we left we were about a third empty on a train that is usually full - presumably those with flexible tickets who had arrvived soon enough had caught other services.

 

[gray1404]

bb21 it's ok don't worry! hope your feeling better today!

I had a slight variation on this situation. I had an Advance ticket for a Friday evening Euston to Birmingham Virgin train. My booked train was delayed by a train fault. It became obvious that the next later Virgin train would depart before my booked train. I went for this later train and spoke to the train manager before boarding. He agreed I could travel on this train. He did not seem to want me on his train. My booked train had not been cancelled. It was just delayed and departed eventually about an hour late. Did I have the right (without seeking permission) to be on the wrong train (same company) when my booked train was still going to run? As a result I was half an hour late to Birmingham rather than a hour.

Thank you, Stephen.

You saved VT money. 30 mins delay repay is less then 60 mins. Though I could see them paying out on the full hour based on your booked train given they don't read letters in full normally.

 

[SephenWorceste]

I ended up with an 65 minute delay. The train I caught was delayed by 10 minutes causing me to miss a once an hour connection at Birmingham. The next train for that connection was delayed by five minutes. I filled in a delay repay form and Virgin gave me more than the total value of my split tickets in vouchers. I must admit I was not disappointed.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[bb21]

I think if your booked train were running, they could in theory refuse you travel on a later train which departed sooner, but as you say, it would be a daft move, and not in anyone's interests really unless it would result in overcrowding of that service.

 

[SephenWorceste]

I suppose overcrowding was the Train Mangers concern. I had a super cheap first advance and I had to share a table for four with one other person. It does seem stupid to delay passengers. In theory if the later train had run on time I might just have made my connection.

 

[Clip]

My train on VTEC east coast last Thursday was the 1803 which left Kings's Cross at 1851 amid much disruption. Several announcements were made that if you had an advance ticket only those for the 1803 would be accepted. When we left we were about a third empty on a train that is usually fun - presumably those with flexible tickets who had arrvived soon enough had caught other services.

How fun is it normally? And how did the fun differ this time?

 

[Flamingo]

I suppose overcrowding was the Train Mangers concern.

I have been working very (45+) delayed trains, where people come up to me with advance tickets for the next train running on time only 10 minutes behind and I've told them to wait, because I know I'll be picking up all the people on flexible tickets that are there early for the next train. (I've also announced that if anybody wants a quieter train, get off and wait ten minutes, a surprising number do!)

 

[Deerfold]

How fun is it normally? And how did the fun differ this time?

Bl**dy phone spellcheck.

Usually full.

 

[SephenWorceste]

I would wait for a quieter train. Really makes the journey more pleasant. Occasionally on the Cotswold Line I have had my own carriage. Heaven for me.

 

[gray1404]

I think if your booked train were running, they could in theory refuse you travel on a later train which departed sooner, but as you say, it would be a daft move, and not in anyone's interests really unless it would result in overcrowding of that service.

If this where you'd have to wait for the 60 minute rule comes in on advance tickets before you'd have any rights to travel on an alternative service? i.e. once your delayed 60 minutes they then have to make alternative arrangements to accommodate you on the next running "appropriate" service?

I've never quite understand this 60 minute rule on Advances when it comes to delays.

 

[Flamingo]

If this where you'd have to wait for the 60 minute rule comes in on advance tickets before you'd have any rights to travel on an alternative service? i.e. once your delayed 60 minutes they then have to make alternative arrangements to accommodate you on the next running "appropriate" service?

I've never quite understand this 60 minute rule on Advances when it comes to delays.

There has to be some cut-off, otherwise there would be thousands rolling up "My train is three minutes late, I want a taxi!".

 

[SephenWorceste]

Is there a 60 minute rule for alternative trains or just for taxis? Seems pointless to make people wait 60 minutes for an alternative train when there booked service is delayed.

 

[gray1404]

I understand its for trains.

Taxis used when last sevice of day will have departed

 

[SephenWorceste]

Thank you. The only time I have had a taxi was after the last train. It was from New Street to International. When I had enquired at Euston I was told it was a ten minute walk. What I did not know was that New Street had staff available 24 hours.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[gray1404]

That's one of the problems when they make you wait up to 60+ minutes for your booked advance ticketed train if its running late, rather then letting you onto the next appropriate trains (as per the TOC of the ticket) that it only takes account of that leg of the journey. Not so bad if you have a point to point Advance ticket requiring one train but if you either:
1. have a connecting service on the same Advance
2. or are using split tickets and require a connection further down the line,
a simple short delay (of even 5 minutes) could make you miss your connection and result in a longer delay, and thus a delay repay for the TOC.

Where as, in come situations, if they just let you onto the next appropriate train with out having to wait for your delayed booked one then a number of possibilities:
you may still make your connections and arrive ontime and thus no delay repay payable by the TOC
you still arrive late but not late enough to be able to make a claim (remembering that some TOCs still require you to be delayed by an hour)
you may arrive late and be able to claim, but not as much in compensations (e.g. claiming for a 30 minute delay on a single Advance ticket rather then a 1 hour delay and being entitled to a full refund in RTVs - for now until it changes, the payout method).

This is often the case if your traveling on a section of train where there are a lot of services by your routed TOC but you connect onto a service that is say, only 1 an hour (or even if it means you'll be only 30 minutes delayed the TOC may still have to pay out).

However, when it comes to the last service of the day, even if it is a small delay and I will miss my connections I am more vocal about that in terms of making on train and platform staff aware - even if it use a different TOC - and in a polite yet assertive way: "my connection/booked train was delayed and if I don't get this train I will miss my last possible connection and end up stranded." In essence, I am trying to save the TOC money there too by taking away the situation whereby they'll have to get me a taxi to my destination.

 

[crehld]

I'm confused... What is this 60 minute rule people keep referring to? I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the advance ticket Ts&Cs. Said Ts&Cs quite unambiguously state that:

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Let's say my booked train is due to leave at 0900, but because of this that and the other it's delayed and now due to depart at 0930. There is however another service due to depart at 0915 to my destination. The terms and conditions which both me and the train company agreed to when I purchased the ticket quite clearly permit me to take this service given my booked service, the 0900, is delayed and the next available service is the 0915.

Or have I missed something?

 

[najaB]

Or have I missed something?

One interpretation of the rules is that you would have to wait until 0930 for the delayed 0900, rather than being allowed onto the 0915. This interpretation is where the 60 minute rule comes in to play - if the 0900 wasn't expected to leave until 1005 then you would be allowed on the 0915.

I do not know if this rule is actually written down anywhere.

 

[Flamingo]

As a rule of thumb, alternative transport (eg Taxi, replacement bus) will not be authorised if there is a train within 60 minutes. This may or may not include authorisation to use a TOC only ticket on another TOC's service, depending on a lot of variables (my mood and your attitude).

You won't find it written, it's a custom and practice thing, or internal Control guideline.