Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[AndrewE]

No guarantee that the unions will accept them.

[mobile welfare facilities] Whyever not? Accommodation to an acceptable standard that can be used while allowing diagrams to keep within the manning agreements (or whatever their current name is) will not be refused, I am sure - in fact I can't see why co-operation would be withheld.
It's a bit off-topic, but we keep seeing rabid, prejudiced anti-union posts on this forum. People need jobs, employers need do-ers and businesses need to succeed - but not by ruthless exploitation of their staff.
We see too many companies bragging about their financial performance, while treating staff with respect seems to be anathema nowadays, regardless of whether the company is utterly dependent on the goodwill of its employees or not (some get away with it, being mostly just a financial construct.) Maybe lack of cooperation is the result of staff being pushed around or otherwise treated like dirt?
The best managers are the ones that will hear what the disaffected are saying* (and take action) as opposed to those who just report the grovelling yes-men's adulation up the management chain. The former have a long term future (and will provide it for everyone from within their department) the latter seem to provide better performance in the short term but are a complete liability in the longer term.
* which is why unions are needed, to speak truth to power. I get the impression that most employees feel so weak or at risk of revenge nowadays that no-one dares do anything but kow-tow... With disastrous results all over the place. Carillion? GW electrification? Class 769? 230?

 

[Class 170101]

Not union bashing merely stating that they don't have to be accepted. I've seen recent examples of facilities provided, no consultation and as such their use refused with consequential train delays. Whether or not I happen to agree with what either business or the unions did is neither here or there.

 

[driver_m]

It's not that hard to provide and get right. M/F bogs, tables, chairs, a microwave and fresh water supply will do the job. That's what's at LSP at the moment in the portakabin and the staff seem happy enough with it. We should all have shared messrooms but the crazy world of the private/public railway we have, means some TOC has to take the lead, it'd be much easier if NR did it, but that could create several threads of its own if they did!

 

[LowLevel]

South Parkway is actually perfectly pleasant. Some early teething troubles with it being monopolised by cleaners (one of whom actually threatened one of our drivers with fisticuffs for bringing the Sun into a mess room he wasn't technically entitled to use anyway) and managers having meetings last year were sorted out and it's better than some of our permanent ones.

 

[AndrewE]

Not union bashing merely stating that they don't have to be accepted.

But are they usually accepted?

I've seen recent examples of facilities provided, no consultation and as such their use refused with consequential train delays. Whether or not I happen to agree with what either business or the unions did is neither here or there.

Would you have been happy with those facilities, or the "Take it or leave it / Like it or lump it" attitude, for that matter?

 

[Geeves]

Its already been discussed to death the reasons why the trains are turning at Huyton and its nothing to do with the unions. Even if the drivers were in no union at all they would still be turning at Huyton and they would still be providing facilities. Nobody has to use anything provided if they don't want to. Some people on here like to think that ASLEF and the RMT exist purely to annoy the passengers. Makes me laugh at times! anyway...

P1 is now history/minus rails and will not see another train again.

 

[The_Engineer]

P1 is now history/minus rails and will not see another train again.

More update here: https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1018556641925574657

 

[B&I]

Its already been discussed to death the reasons why the trains are turning at Huyton and its nothing to do with the unions. Even if the drivers were in no union at all they would still be turning at Huyton and they would still be providing facilities. Nobody has to use anything provided if they don't want to. Some people on here like to think that ASLEF and the RMT exist purely to annoy the passengers. Makes me laugh at times! anyway...

P1 is now history/minus rails and will not see another train again.

What, if anything, is the old platform 1, and the stuff beside it, going to be used for ?

 

[Geeves]

I think they posted on here it would be returned to how it looked when the station first opened, York stone flags and what not. Plus as a walk way to the Northern Mess room and signing on point. Seems absoutely mad but there you go.

 

[driver_m]

Noticed plenty of red signals walking through the station before. Including the down slow bi di signal. Obvs no idea where they're upto on testing these, but it bodes well for the refurb, and hearing rumours that it is right on schedule with no delays .

 

[urbophile]

South Parkway is actually perfectly pleasant. Some early teething troubles with it being monopolised by cleaners (one of whom actually threatened one of our drivers with fisticuffs for bringing the Sun into a mess room he wasn't technically entitled to use anyway) and managers having meetings last year were sorted out and it's better than some of our permanent ones.

I hope the terms of the deal were that the S*n was permanently banned!

 

[B&I]

I think they posted on here it would be returned to how it looked when the station first opened, York stone flags and what not. Plus as a walk way to the Northern Mess room and signing on point. Seems absoutely mad but there you go.

I was rather hoping it might see some use as improved facilities for passengers, those people for whose benefit the railway is meant to be, but that was perhaps silly of me. Is the whole area of the old platform 1 and the track serving it going to be left as dead space ? How brilliant of someone

 

[driver_m]

DHL, Northern and us at VT still use it as a walking route. DHL use it for loading up their stuff, so it will still be used, I fully agree its a waste and I've said it should have been retained in a way similar to pl10-12 at Man Picc but someone stated signal standards would mean only 50-60m in use which is neither use nor ornament. A shame but that's the price we've paid for various collisions over the years, meaning we have these rules.

 

[B&I]

DHL, Northern and us at VT still use it as a walking route. DHL use it for loading up their stuff, so it will still be used, I fully agree its a waste and I've said it should have been retained in a way similar to pl10-12 at Man Picc but someone stated signal standards would mean only 50-60m in use which is neither use nor ornament. A shame but that's the price we've paid for various collisions over the years, meaning we have these rules.

Even if old platform 1 could not have been sensibly retained, new platform 1 could have been placed north, rather than south, of the track and the considerable area of the old track, platform and adjacent buildings could have been used for passenger facilities, particularly in conjunction with the old travel centre and the space around it under the car park. There is a lot of wasted space at Lime Street, despite its poor passenger facilities

 

[modernrail]

How capacity constrained is the throat now? Is one option for future expansion to move the taxi rank and short-stay car park and reinstate the original platforms that sat on that part of the site?

I wonder whether there is space to extend old platform 1 out as far as possible and use that extended space as a taxi rank. There is already some space outside the supporting arches that could be incorporated to provide a taxi loop. There is also already a multi-storey car park on the Lord Nelson Street side that already allows free parking for 20 minutes and so arguably you could lose the current short stay car park on the other side without replacing it. With platforms for 4 - 6 car trains I suspect you would still be able to squeeze in a drop-off facility on the Skelhorne Street side. Skelhorne Street itself is ripe for redesign to act as a long drop-off area. The current parking along that road probably needs to go anyway as it causes congestion.

This plan appears to show the run of the original platforms in the current short-stay car park area. https://goo.gl/images/iWhuAL

 

[notlob.divad]

How capacity constrained is the throat now? Is one option for future expansion to move the taxi rank and short-stay car park and reinstate the original platforms that sat on that part of the site?

I wonder whether there is space to extend old platform 1 out as far as possible and use that extended space as a taxi rank. There is already some space outside the supporting arches that could be incorporated to provide a taxi loop. There is also already a multi-storey car park on the Lord Nelson Street side that already allows free parking for 20 minutes and so arguably you could lose the current short stay car park on the other side without replacing it. With platforms for 4 - 6 car trains I suspect you would still be able to squeeze in a drop-off facility on the Skelhorne Street side. Skelhorne Street itself is ripe for redesign to act as a long drop-off area. The current parking along that road probably needs to go anyway as it causes congestion.

This plan appears to show the run of the original platforms in the current short-stay car park area. https://goo.gl/images/iWhuAL

Problem with re-instating them would the reducion in length of the new platfrom 10. This needs to be long enough to take an 11 car Pendolino, as the West coast franchise has a requirement for 2 platforms long enough for their longest vehicle. This Picture https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh6ip16XcAAoJ5M.jpg from the @networkrailLiv twitter feed shows the end of said platform. Behind the photographer the platform is right up against the support piller for Copperas Hill Road above.

 

[modernrail]

Could one of the hypothetical reinstated platforms make it to the required length, providing the same end result plus 2 new platforms?

I can personally see an increase in long-distance services from Liverpool over the coming years. We already know of Scotland services. This in addition to HS2. This is likely to lead to a need for more longer-turn-around platforms. Even if local services were to go underground I can easily see Lime Street needing those other two platforms back, especially as the net gain with the current scheme is 1 even if the overall configuration of all the platforms is much improved.

I also struggle with how viable sending local services underground would be. The current loop and northern line must be close to capacity (because of terminators at Central hanging around and reversing etc)? Are we therefore talking about new tracks into central and new terminating platforms? That won't come cheap - is Central not cut and cover, meaning you can't extend on the same level without massive changes to the buildings above? I can't see the sometime mentioned 1 extra platform doing the job - it could easily be justified already for existing terminating services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Central is cut and cover, but other than the rather tatty old station building, and a manky 1970s shopping centre and a couple of modular buildings there is very little actually on top of it. It might even be feasible, if the likes of Westfield are interested in coming to Liverpool, to obtain planning-gain type funding to redo it, funded by the shopping centre on top. Something New St-esque would be quite a good fit.

If you want to have a nose around what's on top (basically the old site of Central High Level) it's clearly visible on Google Maps and the Streetview car has been right down to the Network Rail building which was confirmed on here somewhere as being beyond the end of the Low Level platforms. (I think the fire escape stairwell at the end of the platforms comes up under the bridge).

To get an idea where the other end of the platforms are, the lift down to the opposite end is at the north west end of the walkway from the station building which has the "plastic bubble" type roof over it.

Really it needs a second island platform even for the present service, to be honest, though the header tunnel on the north east side could allow a single side platform to be built without digging much of what's above out. Having said that, opening it out with a nice overall roof in the manner of something like Earls Court LU would be very nice indeed.

 

[The_Engineer]

I also struggle with how viable sending local services underground would be. The current loop and northern line must be close to capacity (because of terminators at Central hanging around and reversing etc)?

The original idea was that those terminators would continue via the new line to Edge Hill and then on to St Helens, Earlestown, etc. That requires no new paths or platforms!

 

[B&I]

Central is cut and cover, but other than the rather tatty old station building, and a manky 1970s shopping centre and a couple of modular buildings there is very little actually on top of it. It might even be feasible, if the likes of Westfield are interested in coming to Liverpool, to obtain planning-gain type funding to redo it, funded by the shopping centre on top. Something New St-esque would be quite a good fit.

If you want to have a nose around what's on top (basically the old site of Central High Level) it's clearly visible on Google Maps and the Streetview car has been right down to the Network Rail building which was confirmed on here somewhere as being beyond the end of the Low Level platforms. (I think the fire escape stairwell at the end of the platforms comes up under the bridge).

To get an idea where the other end of the platforms are, the lift down to the opposite end is at the north west end of the walkway from the station building which has the "plastic bubble" type roof over it.

Really it needs a second island platform even for the present service, to be honest, though the header tunnel on the north east side could allow a single side platform to be built without digging much of what's above out. Having said that, opening it out with a nice overall roof in the manner of something like Earls Court LU would be very nice indeed.

You can get a fairly good overall view of the site, and a 1980s-style vegetarian meal, from the cafe (the Egg ?) on Newington.

It's probably lucky that the Central Village plan for some mall or other such gubbins above the station has stalled, as it didn't seem to take into account any station improvements at all. The ideal solution would be a second island platform, a small additional concourse at the south end of the station (to account for the large numbers of passengers heading that direction from.the station) and an air rights development which still.permits natural light to reach the platform.

 

[B&I]

Problem with re-instating them would the reducion in length of the new platfrom 10. This needs to be long enough to take an 11 car Pendolino, as the West coast franchise has a requirement for 2 platforms long enough for their longest vehicle. This Picture https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dh6ip16XcAAoJ5M.jpg from the @networkrailLiv twitter feed shows the end of said platform. Behind the photographer the platform is right up against the support piller for Copperas Hill Road above.

I know that bridge is listed, but if its removal would facilitate more max length platforms at Lime Street, I'd replace it tomorrow.

 

[Crossforth]

Instead of sending the St Helen’s stoppers underground, why not send the Liverpool - Manchester via Warrington service underground via Liverpool South Parkway?
Effectively extend the Southport - Hunts Cross service every 30 minutes on to Manchester so that it stays with the current frequency then get one of eithet the other Northern, East Midlands of LNWR service to pick up stops at Edge Hill, Moseley Hill and West Allerton.

The one problem I’ve just realised after typing all that out is that the 777s may be dual voltage capable but the Cheshire Lines are wired so... scrap that

 

[fowler9]

Instead of sending the St Helen’s stoppers underground, why not send the Liverpool - Manchester via Warrington service underground via Liverpool South Parkway?
Effectively extend the Southport - Hunts Cross service every 30 minutes on to Manchester so that it stays with the current frequency then get one of eithet the other Northern, East Midlands of LNWR service to pick up stops at Edge Hill, Moseley Hill and West Allerton.

The one problem I’ve just realised after typing all that out is that the 777s may be dual voltage capable but the Cheshire Lines are wired so... scrap that

Also because during the day West Allerton and Mossley Hill have a half hourly service so you are talking of turning two of four longer distance services in to commuter services.

 

[Crossforth]

Just a few quick pictures I took the other day at Lime Street.

The first shows the platform cubes having been moved.

The second shows the board on new platform one saying:
Lime St Replatforming
Platform 1
RTI

The third photo shows the old platform 1 without any track.

 

[snowball]

From the Twitter feed:

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1020328687214972933

Last Friday our signal box gave its final signal at 19:46 (a @northernassist to Wigan) having served for over 70 years! Signalling control is in final stages of being moved over to centrally-operated Manchester Rail Operating Centre as part of our massive upgrade

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Buried in the tweet dialogue is a strange case of role reversal, with northern cast-offs being sent to the south east for a change.
Apparently some of the decommissioned Lime St signalling equipment is destined for Maidstone East box, which has similar 1940s miniature lever frame technology.

 

[DJH1971]

Is the signal box a listed building by chance?

 

[nw-sparks]

Buried in the tweet dialogue is a strange case of role reversal, with northern cast-offs being sent to the south east for a change.
Apparently some of the decommissioned Lime St signalling equipment is destined for Maidstone East box, which has similar 1940s miniature lever frame technology.

Maidstone East is the last example remaining (on Network Rail) so I'm guessing a supply of spare parts would be welcome!

 

[mcnw35282]

Is the signal box a listed building by chance?

It is, yeah. Grade 2.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having picked up a leaflet on WCML closures today, it seems there will be more disruption at Lime St over the summer.
Bank Holiday Sun/Mon 26-27 August - VT diverts via Warrington BQ.
Sun 2 September - Lime St closed, trains terminate at South Parkway/Huyton again, no TPE west of Manchester.
Euston is also closed on these (and other) dates, trains mostly turning at Milton Keynes.