LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)

[Pete_uk]

Given you lot are used to EMU acceleration from a station, how does the 800s compare,?

 

[ainsworth74]

An 800 could rescue an 801 in an emergency though, right?

The 5-car versions should be able to operate in service together (i.e. a 10-car formation made up of an 800 and 801)!

Thought the 801s were supposed to be able to 'rescue' themselves?

Yes but you won't want them to unless it's a very short distance. Performance on diesel both range and speed is pretty lacklustre. I can't imagine them using the ability to move on diesel much.

 

[ainsworth74]

Given you lot are used to EMU acceleration from a station, how does the 800s compare,?

800s on electric are incredible. I don't think I've been on a train quicker to 100 or 125 from a standing start.

 

[wellhouse]

On my first Azuma, First Class 0845 from Leeds to Kings Cross.

One design detail I haven't read about previously is the curious compartment for large luggage opposite the toilet in coach L
* Sliding door
* Fold-up shelves
* 2 cycle racks
* Sign saying 'don't leave bikes here'????
* Seat reservation indicator above door for seats 00 & 99

Slow refreshment service;
* meal arrived over an hour after departure.
* no toast.
* second drinks service only after Peterborough.

Brisk and comfortable (if somewhat bumpy ride)

 

[hexagon789]

Yes but you won't want them to unless it's a very short distance. Performance on diesel both range and speed is pretty lacklustre. I can't imagine them using the ability to move on diesel much.

It was only for 'failures' really, I think the design specified being able to provide emergency hotel power and movement at 40mph.

800s on electric are incredible. I don't think I've been on a train quicker to 100 or 125 from a standing start.

Apparently the 800s are only one minute quicker to the full 125 than a 225 set - 4 mins 15 against 5 mins 15.

The 801s will be quicker of course.

 

[Roast Veg]

Are they really faster to 125 than a class 395?

 

[hexagon789]

Are they really faster to 125 than a class 395?

Probably not as those are designed for quicker acceleration and have no diesel engines to lug about. The 395s are 38s to 60mph; 800s in electric are 54s.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Given you lot are used to EMU acceleration from a station, how does the 800s compare,?

Very well if my experiences a couple of weeks ago from Leeds to Wakey are anything to go by. GWR ones are impressive too. As fast as some older Metro trains.

 

[hexagon789]

Sign saying 'don't leave bikes here'????

Presumably because it's for luggage unless bikes have been booked to use it?

Seat reservation indicator above door for seats 00 & 99

Which is what these indicators will be for.

 

[hexagon789]

Came across this on another forum and I'm not sure if it's been discussed here already, but LNER are looking to order more new trains in order to meet stock requirements for its proposed 2021 timetable improvements.

The operator is seeking six to eight ten-car trains to use instead of the originally proposed retention of some 225s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Came across this on another forum and I'm not sure if it's been discussed here already, but LNER are looking to order more new trains in order to meet stock requirements for its proposed 2021 timetable improvements.

The operator is seeking six to eight ten-car trains to use instead of the originally proposed retention of some 225s.

Interesting that the 2021 track access application shows how the 800/801 utilisation is really low for modern stock, but still mentions retaining a few 91/Mk 4 sets.

The number of 800/801 is quoted as providing:

“The fleet consists of the following formation:
10 x 9 car bi-mode plus 3 x 9 car bi-mode spare sets (Class 800 series)
26 x 9 car electrics plus 4 x 9 car electric spare sets (Class 801 series)
8 x 5 car bi-modes plus 2 x 5 car bi-mode spare sets (Class 800 series)
10 x 5 car electrics plus 2 x 5 car bi-mode spare sets (Class 801 series)
(54 diagrams per day) plus 11 spare sets per day”

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pd...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf

That seems pretty unambitious utilisation compared to the GW fleet doesn’t it? How many spares would they have from the pre-Azuma fleets?

 

[westv]

Apparently the 800s are only one minute quicker to the full 125 than a 225 set - 4 mins 15 against 5 mins 15.

Compared to an HST is feels like the difference between a Ferrari and a Fiat Panda.

 

[themiller]

People on this forum seem to forget that the IEP is not the same as the traditional way of providing stock. The TOC has no control over the number of trains allocated to it. It's Hitachi who have to make the judgement based on the number of diagrams that have to be covered. I would expect that any increase in train requirement would necessitate a contract variation.

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting that the 2021 track access application shows how the 800/801 utilisation is really low for modern stock, but still mentions retaining a few 91/Mk 4 sets.

They aren't keeping any 225 sets now though.

 

[swt_passenger]

People on this forum seem to forget that the IEP is not the same as the traditional way of providing stock. The TOC has no control over the number of trains allocated to it. It's Hitachi who have to make the judgement based on the number of diagrams that have to be covered. I would expect that any increase in train requirement would necessitate a contract variation.

Well I for one hadn’t forgotten that, but was wondering why DfT had allowed such a low utilisation in the first place.

 

[hexagon789]

Compared to an HST is feels like the difference between a Ferrari and a Fiat Panda.

For what they are, they aren't that bad really.

Utterly lightening quick compared to their contemporaries when first introduced.

 

[swt_passenger]

They aren't keeping any 225 sets now though.

Is that confirmed then? I know it’s been mentioned in posts before but don’t recall any significant evidence.

 

[hexagon789]

Well I for one hadn’t forgotten that, but was wondering why DfT had allowed such a low utilisation in the first place.

So the timetable can be ramped up in the future?

 

[hexagon789]

Is that confirmed then? I know it’s been mentioned in posts before but don’t recall any significant evidence.

Believe so, their engineering director said it was no longer viable because of the engineering required to keep them in service. The only alternative I see is refurb the Mk4s and buy new electric locos to replace the 91s but instead they are going for a micro-fleet of additional 80x.

 

[swt_passenger]

So the timetable can be ramped up in the future?

That is possible, but seems highly unusual compared to other ‘DfT designed’ fleets. Usually they seem to provide for the bare minimum, whether the DfT work out the numbers of trains or the number of diagrams required...

 

[hexagon789]

That is possible, but seems highly unusual compared to other DfT ‘designed’ fleets. Usually they seem to provide for the bare minimum, whether it’s the DfT who work out the numbers of trains or the number of diagrams required...

Perhaps this is the exception to that rule?

Either way, it does give the opportunity to improve the timetable without having to source more stock other than seemingly these additional 80x trains which I gather would be for the new limited-stop Edinburgh fasts.

 

[ainsworth74]

It was only for 'failures' really, I think the design specified being able to provide emergency hotel power and movement at 40mph.

I am led to believe that 40mph might be achievable as long as you allow a hundred miles or so for them to accelerate up to it

Seriously though I've heard that they are absolutely dreadful on diesel and self-rescue isn't really a thing (though being able to supply hotel power, to my mind, is still a good reason to have them!!).

 

[greatescape]

More new trains on LNER wish list
08/08/2019
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/more-new-trains-on-lner-wish-list

LNER has revealed it is in the market for new trains, despite only just starting to introduce its new Hitachi Azumas.

Engineering Director John Doughty told RAIL that the operator needs more vehicles to meet the requirements of the planned timetable upgrade in 2021.

Initially the plan was to retain Class 91s with shorter rakes of Mk 4s that would be used on limited-stop expresses between London King’s Cross and Edinburgh. However, that has changed because the older stock would need significant rebuilding and refurbishment following a period out of traffic.

Doughty said: “We will need new trains to support the timetable change, otherwise it will be tight.”

He explained that “slightly more than six” would be required, but did not give a definitive number. These would likely be ten-car trains. LNER later confirmed the figure was could be from six to eight.

Ideally, the company would like to increase its existing Hitachi order. However, the operator must comply with European Union regulations which decrees there must be an open competition. Doughty said there was no option for additional Azumas, and that the 65 on order would be the only ones from that contract.

The LNER
Are there non-Hitachi Bi-mode implementations?
Please tell me.

 

[swt_passenger]

More new trains on LNER wish list
08/08/2019
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/more-new-trains-on-lner-wish-list

The LNER
Are there non-Hitachi Bi-mode implementations?
Please tell me.

Nothing similar that’s been built or proven in service. In theory any of the usual manufacturers ought to be able to provide them, but as we see with EMR they went with Hitachi AT300 based bi-modes although having the ability to choose another builder.

 

[greatescape]

Nothing similar that’s been built or proven in service. In theory any of the usual manufacturers ought to be able to provide them, but as we see with EMR they went with Hitachi AT300 based bi-modes although having the ability to choose another builder.

Does LNER bid only by shape?

 

[swt_passenger]

Does LNER bid only by shape?

I don’t know what this means...

 

[greatescape]

Nothing similar that’s been built or proven in service. In theory any of the usual manufacturers ought to be able to provide them, but as we see with EMR they went with Hitachi AT300 based bi-modes although having the ability to choose another builder.

Is LNER going to make a bid again?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is LNER going to make a bid again?

LNER wouldn’t bid for anything, they’d issue a tender. Manufacturers would bid in response to the detailed requirements LNER would provide. LNER could reasonably require that additional units were capable of multiple working with their existing fleet.

 

[greatescape]

LNER wouldn’t bid for anything, they’d issue a tender. Manufacturers would bid in response to the detailed requirements LNER would provide. LNER could reasonably require that additional units were capable of multiple working with their existing fleet.

I see.
Thank you for your kindness.

 

[wellhouse]

Which is what these indicators will be for.[/QUOTE]

Except that these seats don't exist, and were they to be installed, they would be in a very claustrophobic compartment, with no windows, and a solid door.

Is there a similar arrangement on other (GWR/TPE) stock?