LNER Considering Requiring Passengers to Check-in Before Travel

[cactustwirly]

Those passengers want to book an InterCity journey like a plane or coach. They don't want the complexity of Permitted Routes, TOC restrictions etc.

The presence of Advance tickets caters for this market.

 

[43096]

Most of my journeys have been for work. I admit I tend to know my "out" time but my "back" time is often unknown. I have not had a problem booking, standard class, on the train I wanted even at short notice. I will further admit it has been 10 days since my last trip so demand may have shot up but more trains are coming on stream which will surely offer more choice.

Honestly - I haven't had a problem and think mountains are being made out of molehills. Clearly I can only talk to my own experience and fully accept others may have had terrible times but i haven't. I expected problems but have not encountered them.

The problem is the long distance railway really wants to go down the booked train only advance purchase route, but they won't actually say so - which is fine for an airline, probably also for TGV type services, but it really, really doesn't work where the long distance operator is providing local journeys as well. If this process is still in place post restrictions (or indeed if trains get busier before then), I bet you'll be complaining when you rock up for your return and can't board the train you want. Or the one after that, etc etc. The other issue is that the whole thing is inconsistent - different long distance operators taking different approaches on mandatory reservations - and the utterly useless and pointless RDG doing nothing as usual.

I noted an early comment (from another of the Marston Vale mafia, I think) that it's only enthusiasts who don't like it, but everyone else is fine with it. Is that why we get so many issues with people turning up on "booked train only tickets" and getting on anything but their booked train? The perception is that we have a walk-up railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Marston Vale mafia"...love it!

To the extent I've nicked it for my profile in fact.

 

[kez19]

The thing I want to add, this is going back awhile ago but I reserved my seat someone was sitting in it, I asked if they could move but didn’t until Edinburgh, so how would this still work just tick I’m on board but if I get pulled up I get into trouble for sitting in wrong seat?

This is the only thing I don’t like when using trains I reserve seats, I look at my tickets when I get them work out where I am sitting but then you get some ignorant people who take your seat without looking at screens/labels. If a seat is reserved for say Newcastle and what looks like work colleagues yapping together do you disturb them or you find alternative without bother (if it’s possible)? (this happened to me couple years back from York-Newcastle). Common sense needs to be applied here.

It’s all well and good but this sort of issue that happens a lot (even for me at times) this problem needs nipped as I do feel at times I will be the one most likely to be pulled up and told off and not the person who sat in wrong seat.

 

[Ianno87]

The thing I want to add, this is going back awhile ago but I reserved my seat someone was sitting in it, I asked if they could move but didn’t until Edinburgh, so how would this still work just tick I’m on board but if I get pulled up I get into trouble for sitting in wrong seat?

This is the only thing I don’t like when using trains I reserve seats, I look at my tickets when I get them work out where I am sitting but then you get some ignorant people who take your seat without looking at screens/labels. If a seat is reserved for say Newcastle and what looks like work colleagues yapping together do you disturb them or you find alternative without bother (if it’s possible)? (this happened to me couple years back from York-Newcastle). Common sense needs to be applied here.

What about a "fine me another seat" button on the App, should you find yourself next to, say, a particularly noisy group?

 

[cactustwirly]

I think people here are forgetting that most people follow the path of least resistance when picking a transport mode.
Obviously putting in barriers such as "checking in", mandatory reservations etc tips the balance over to the car. I say this as both a rail passenger and car owner.

Worth noting that other ToCs such as GWR don't have so many onerous restrictions, and still manage to fill trains.

 

[kez19]

What about a "fine me another seat" button on the App, should you find yourself next to, say, a particularly noisy group?

I have never used their app, I use paper tickets if I am honest, but then why should I be looking for another seat? I don’t mind groups as I could blast my MP3 player if I wanted not that I care, to me it’s the principle of booking, I book the seat but it ends up that it is I that has to find alternative? It’s the ignorance of some people, I have had it a few times that I’m getting told to move (window seat) but still have to prove to a fellow passenger I am sitting there like I say do people not look or is it automatic that they want a window seat?

I don’t mind sitting at window or aisle but it’s at times people either assume it’s (I) in wrong seat and not them but yet when I have used LNER I always seem to get it in the neck when I have rightly reserved (be late/delayed train)

 

[Mainline421]

True. I might not like it myself, but "airline style" is by far the simplest way for the IC railway to operate. Nobody finds booking an easyJet flight complicated - it is genuinely easy. You book it on their website, you put in where from and to, you pick which flight, are told how much it is, you pay and then you print your boarding card or have it on your phone. Then you rock up when it says and sit in your allocated seat at the specified time with no arguments about validity.

You're kidding right? No one finds that easier than turn up at station, ask for return to York, hop on the next train.

(And return when you want/need to) Your system is only easy to understand on the basis that's its easy to understand that you no rights and no flexibility than to understand what you do have, how is that better exactly?

 

[peteb]

Airlines ensure everyones in the right seat before take off. Theres usually 10 minutes faffing about before the aircraft taxis down the runway. Trains have fewer staff and leave a minute after you get on in most cases. So folks sitting in your seat is a pain especially when the wont move or cannot because they have a dog/child/massive case. You go and sit elsewhere only to be turned out at the next stop by another reservee. Same if you've split tickets on advances. It's such a bother. I'm a self confessed train addict yet in the past 6 weeks I've done Birmingham Dundee, Birmingham Newcastle, Birmingham Manchester return journeys by car. Why? Because it's less hassle, cheaper and I dont get to share covid air with dozens of others, mask or not. Better policing of seat reservations, unreserved seats with spares roped off and more staff on trains will tempt me back to rail, but until then whilst we have covid it's the car for me.

 

[Robertj21a]

Just re-reading all this today reminds me why I realised some time ago that a car is a godsend......

 

[DarloRich]

The problem is the long distance railway really wants to go down the booked train only advance purchase route, but they won't actually say so - which is fine for an airline, probably also for TGV type services, but it really, really doesn't work where the long distance operator is providing local journeys as well. If this process is still in place post restrictions (or indeed if trains get busier before then), I bet you'll be complaining when you rock up for your return and can't board the train you want. Or the one after that, etc etc. The other issue is that the whole thing is inconsistent - different long distance operators taking different approaches on mandatory reservations - and the utterly useless and pointless RDG doing nothing as usual.

I don't disagree with any of that - I am not suggesting that this is a long term solution to a problem. It isn't practical long term for the reasons you call out. However, I think it is an option worth looking at, in the current crisis, as a way to rebuild customer confidence.

I noted an early comment (from another of the Marston Vale mafia, I think)

We prefer Triad actually. The mafia is riddled with snitches and rats.

The perception is that we have a walk-up railway.

We don't at the moment due to the current situation. Hopefully we will have that again soon.

Just re-reading all this today reminds me why I realised some time ago that a car is a godsend......

I have obtained a car during lock down. It is very helpful. However I have to say I have felt less safe at a motroway service station than I ever have on a train!

 

[DB]

However, I think it is an option worth looking at, in the current crisis, as a way to rebuild customer confidence.

I really can't see how it rebuilds this mythical 'customer confidence'. Why would this make someone more likely to use a train?

This whole 'confidence' thing is nonsense anyway. Nobody seems to know what it actually means. What are they not 'confident' about? That the Deadly Killer Virus won't get them? Is anyone seriously going to believe that by booking a ticket there is less chance of this than if they just turn up and buy a ticket?

 

[peteb]

I really can't see how it rebuilds this mythical 'customer confidence'. Why would this make someone more likely to use a train?

This whole 'confidence' thing is nonsense anyway. Nobody seems to know what it actually means. What are they not 'confident' about? That the Deadly Killer Virus won't get them? Is anyone seriously going to believe that by booking a ticket there is less chance of this than if they just turn up and buy a ticket?

I think the confidence thing is under-estimated by the train companies and government alike. We were told for so long to avoid trains, supposedly to let NHS and other key workers get to work safely. But most trains ran near empty. Confidence was lost and the car used increasingly. Now they want us back but they're not making it appealing or easy. Heritage railways on the other hand are doubling their efforts to get custom AND make sure everyone feels safe.

 

[norbitonflyer]

And if I can't reserve a seat on the train aboit to depart? If tgat's my last connectiom of the day, what am I supposed to do next?

 

[peteb]

I don't disagree with any of that - I am not suggesting that this is a long term solution to a problem. It isn't practical long term for the reasons you call out. However, I think it is an option worth looking at, in the current crisis, as a way to rebuild customer confidence.





We prefer Triad actually. The mafia is riddled with snitches and rats.




We don't at the moment due to the current situation. Hopefully we will have that again soon.




I have obtained a car during lock down. It is very helpful. However I have to say I have felt less safe at a motroway service station than I ever have on a train!

It does depend on which service area you stop at, the time of day and the layout. Some have a labyrinth of narrow corridors leading to the loos (the main reason most folks stop there), so I avoid those. For example Knutsford M6 far better laid out than Sandbach M6 only 15 miles away.....

It does depend on which service area you stop at, the time of day and the layout. Some have a labyrinth of narrow corridors leading to the loos (the main reason most folks stop there), so I avoid those. For example Knutsford M6 far better laid out than Sandbach M6 only 15 miles away.....

Actually come to think of it most motorway services feel more spacious than railway station interiors i.e. cafes, toilets, waiting rooms, although on a station you can walk up the platform in the fresh air to await the train...

 

[cactustwirly]

It does depend on which service area you stop at, the time of day and the layout. Some have a labyrinth of narrow corridors leading to the loos (the main reason most folks stop there), so I avoid those. For example Knutsford M6 far better laid out than Sandbach M6 only 15 miles away.....

I've only been to Warwick (M40) services since the lockdown and feels very safe.

 

[williamn]

I think a major issue here is the huge differences between operators. LNERs policies including this potential new one, seem very strict. Other long distance operators have done the opposite - no seat reservations at all, it is up to passengers to social distance. From my anecdotal observations GWR and Avanti seem much busier than LNER. Couldn't ATOC get companies to work together to come up with a unified message and policy?

 

[Iskra]

And if I can't reserve a seat on the train aboit to depart? If tgat's my last connectiom of the day, what am I supposed to do next?

Exactly. The railway is letting passengers down. ...Meanwhile someone who is served by a local operator can travel when and how they want even if the last train is packed to sardine standards. Or you can’t travel with an IC operator so have to spend twice as long doing the same journey on a shorter train that can then be artificially busy.

There is a total lack of consistency. I’m pro rail but the current situation is a total embarrassment.

Intercity TOC’s are acting as a brake on economic recovery, people’s livelihoods are at risk in the places they link while they carry on quite happily hoovering up massive subsidies while alienating their bread and butter customers, who will then have to pay for it in the long run.

It’s even more confusing and off putting if you’re travelling with multiple operators.

 

[crablab]

It’s even more confusing and off putting if you’re travelling with multiple operators

I've been unable to book tickets for through journeys on multiple operators. I assume as the booking engine saw that LNER needed a mandatory reservation but then couldn't get a reservation on my connection (which doesn't have them). Madness...

I had to book both tickets separately. It was a painful process marrying up the social distanced availability on LNER and the departures on the connection.

If I'd had a car I might well have just given up...

 

[Robertj21a]

There's simply no need to keep adding in any extra new systems/benefits/problems all the time that many potential passengers just want a basic Turn up and Go train network. Keep it simple - simple tickets, simple train times, simple systems.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've made 6 long distance LNER journeys now, and have seen zero 'zealous' enforcement of either masks or alcohol rules, beyond a couple of long-winded PA announcements as reminders.

It's, if anything, been a much more pleasurable and relaxing travel experience with social distancing limiting the capacity of the trains.

There have been reports of over-zealous responses, but when I use that phrase I don't limit it to railway staff but expand it to BTP & even the public.

And whilst I'm sure far quieter trains is a lovely experience, its not sustainable, nor frankly is it desirable under a Conservative government that will soon be looking for deep public spending cuts. The sight of half or more empty Azumas whizzing up and down the ECML will soon get the attention of the Civil Servants that will be tasked to make savings, especially as LNER is a government owned company.

So one of two things will happen, either ticket prices will shoot up, or LNER will start a period of "restructuring" their network, trimming off service after service because they are no longer financially viable. Its a classic case of be careful what you wish for. So my suggestion is enjoy it while you can, because they will either have to start putting fare paying punters in those empty seats, or there won't be as many trains with seats for you to choose from.

 

[43096]

I think a major issue here is the huge differences between operators. LNERs policies including this potential new one, seem very strict. Other long distance operators have done the opposite - no seat reservations at all, it is up to passengers to social distance. From my anecdotal observations GWR and Avanti seem much busier than LNER. Couldn't ATOC get companies to work together to come up with a unified message and policy?

Asking RDG (I think ATOC is now part of RDG?) to do anything useful is probably a step too far.

 

[Ianno87]

You're kidding right? No one finds that easier than turn up at station, ask for return to York, hop on the next train.

That might be easy, but what proportion of passengers actually do that, especially for a long distance journey? Most will have bought in Advance of travel (not necessarily an Advance ticket) in some form or another. e.g. business travel for work.

 

[Iskra]

That might be easy, but what proportion of passengers actually do that, especially for a long distance journey? Most will have bought in Advance of travel (not necessarily an Advance ticket) in some form or another. e.g. business travel for work.

I'm sure there are some that do. I'm sure most journeys are fairly short ones though, where walk up is more likely. IC operators do cater for a lot of shorter journeys and currently they are making trying to travel a nightmare.

 

[PeterC]

The main selling point of rail is that it's turn up and go. Take that away and it becomes a lot less useful to a lot of people.

Not much of a selling point when turn-up-and-go fares are so expensive.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'd love to use the train and certainly dont want to lose them, but at the end of the day ( as a key worker) I'm no good to anyone if I've contracted a virus travelling in a crowded environment so its car for me for the foreseeable future. Yes I can catch it anywhere else but given I do have a choice I'll exercise caution. But I feel for those who have no choice but to travel by train and sometimes at short notice. They do need a walk up system and reservation free travel as plans change and not everyone has internet eg a lot of
elderly people.

Unfortunately the railways simply cannot exist with just the very key worker travel we saw earlier in the year, it simply would not be sustainable. Operators like Japan Rail have shown that even reservation only services can still be used by walk-up passengers, either using the ticket machines or counter sales at the station. So I really don't see it being a problem with check-in, as this could be done at the same time if buying say less than 30 or 60 minutes before departure.

I starting am wondering if this idea of self-check in is a precursor to LNER opening up more capacity & getting back to somewhere near normal, by giving the impression of a more controlled reservation system as with airlines.

 

[JamesT]

I really can't see how it rebuilds this mythical 'customer confidence'. Why would this make someone more likely to use a train?

This whole 'confidence' thing is nonsense anyway. Nobody seems to know what it actually means. What are they not 'confident' about? That the Deadly Killer Virus won't get them? Is anyone seriously going to believe that by booking a ticket there is less chance of this than if they just turn up and buy a ticket?

If your previous expectation of a train is a crowded sardine tin then you’re unlikely to want to use it. Whereas if the operator has a system of spaced out reservations then you’re going to be much more confident you won’t end up next to someone you might catch Covid from. Whereas walk up you don’t really have any guarantees how the seating will be. Of course this does need some attempt at enforcement of the reservations.

 

[williamn]

Not much of a selling point when turn-up-and-go fares are so expensive.

Short journeys on LNER, such as Grantham to Newark are used by many turn up and go passengers and are not expensive.

 

[Haywain]

Short journeys on LNER, such as Grantham to Newark are used by many turn up and go passengers and are not expensive.

You overrate the usage of such short hops on LNER - aside from York - Doncaster and Durham - Newcastle, LNER is almost exclusively a long distance railway.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Ridiculous idea. While it might work where there are long-distance and local services running in parallel, it simply doesn't work in this country as all the long-distance services also serve as local services at various points on their route - e.g. the only services between York and Doncaster are LNER and XC, both long-distance operators. Similar applies in many other areas.

The main selling point of rail is that it's turn up and go. Take that away and it becomes a lot less useful to a lot of people.

1. That’s why I said ‘some’ IC Services. I understand that some IC operators operate local services, which is why I say some.

2. Turn up and go can still exist... There have been times where I have turned up and got on an airplane... Checking in can be something right up to departure... Press a button on the phone when you sit down for example.

So you're saying that if I want to travel between Stevenage and Kings Cross, Durham and Newcastle, or even between Leeds and Wakefield I'm expected to reserve a seat days in advance and have to produce a 'boarding pass'? An utterly ridiculous idea!

3. I don’t remember ever suggesting you had to reserve a seat days in advance. I can look at some mandatory reservation services in Sweden leaving in a few hours, and there are still seats available.

4. How is a boarding pass any different to a ticket? My KLM passes are legitimately exactly the same as my Avanti tickets... Just a pass on my phone.

It's an option in Germany on long-distance trains but it's advertised as a convenience for the passengers, i.e. travel without being bothered by a ticket check - you are just left undisturbed in your seat.

Exactly... On the DB navigator app. It is brilliant and optional too. SJ does it also, at least from what I could tell from my X2000 trip a few years ago.