LNER HST Withdrawals

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HamworthyGoods

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The train was turned round in rapid time with doors closed and locked waiting for a 'green' from platform 1 but it stubbornly stayed red and the returning Knaresborough-Leeds was given the road from platform 3 before it had even entered the station. This would make the London about 35 late into Leeds.
An appalling piece of regulating by the Harrogate signalman.

Correct regulation by the Harrogate signalman - rightly or wrongly the rail industry has chosen to go with regulation by PPM, the HST had already well and truly failed PPM with no chance or recovery, the Northern service ex York was let to depart first and did made PPM at Leeds. The Harrogate signaller would only have been following his instructions agreed by all TOCs including LNER and Northern.

Not saying it’s right and frustrating if on the HST but it’s what the industry has signed up to and that evening there was 1 PPM failure from 2 trains instead of both likely failing if the HST had been sent first.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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I think a service to KGX would be a far higher PPM risk as it could affect other services en route.

It had already failed PPM and is the case in an industry focussed on PPM subsequently regulated out the way of other on time services
 

deltic08

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Perhaps, from experience, the signaller simply wasn't expecting such an impressively rapid turnround on the HST? Or would risk PPM-failing the Northern when the HST would have failed PPM regardless.
The HST was late in the first place by having to follow a late running Northern stopper to Harrogate and Knaresborough. Instead of being let out in front of the returning Knaresborough-Leeds stopper, as it was ready to go before it arrived in Harrogate, the non-stop to Leeds/London was held and followed again taking 40 minutes to Leeds instead of 26.
 

deltic08

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Correct regulation by the Harrogate signalman - rightly or wrongly the rail industry has chosen to go with regulation by PPM, the HST had already well and truly failed PPM with no chance or recovery, the Northern service ex York was let to depart first and did made PPM at Leeds. The Harrogate signaller would only have been following his instructions agreed by all TOCs including LNER and Northern.

Not saying it’s right and frustrating if on the HST but it’s what the industry has signed up to and that evening there was 1 PPM failure from 2 trains instead of both likely failing if the HST had been sent first.
I thought it was held for a late running Knaresborough-Leeds Northern stopper? If you have proof it was an ontime ex York then I respectfully withdraw my criticism.
 

HamworthyGoods

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I thought it was held for a late running Knaresborough-Leeds Northern stopper? If you have proof it was an ontime ex York then I respectfully withdraw my criticism.

At circa 17.25 at Harrogate when the HST was ready to go (having by this time already failed PPM) there was 2C31 Northern York to Leeds approaching running 5 minutes late, this still had a chance of making PPM if not delayed further which it did at Leeds.
 

DarloRich

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The last HST from Harrogate to KX and then storage at Ely ran tonight at 17;05, or should have been. ECS from Neville Hill, it arrived nearly 20 mins late because a Leeds-Knaresborough stopper it was following was 25 late. Many passengers joined together with loads of enthusiasts. I haven't seen that many photographing an HST ever let alone at Harrogate.
The train was turned round in rapid time with doors closed and locked waiting for a 'green' from platform 1 but it stubbornly stayed red and the returning Knaresborough-Leeds was given the road from platform 3 before it had even entered the station. This would make the London about 35 late into Leeds.
An appalling piece of regulating by the Harrogate signalman. It only takes three and a half minutes to the next block signal non-stop before the stopper can follow. That would have delayed the already late stopper only 50 seconds more if the London had been allowed to go when it was ready to.
I don't know what path it would get south of Leeds and then Doncaster to make up time. Probably stuck behind a Leeds-Doncaster stopper making it even more late.
Is there any hope for railways in this country if they are run this haphazard way?

Did you travel on the train?

I was on the train from 'arrogut. It was late in because the inbound ECS was held outside Leeds station due to congestion and then ran behind the stopper to Harrowgate. The HST had well and truly busted PPM by that point so it was, according to the rules, the right thing to do to send the northern train ahead. The rules say that the within PPM train take priority. The signalman did his job by the book. I know you don't like people following rules but such is life. The HST ran well between Leeds and Doncaster even with a stop at Wakey. All the delay meant was I got another pint in at the Harroate Tap and a delay repay, which was nice.

The HST was 32 minutes late into Leeds, made an additional stop at Retford and was 38 minutes late into Kings Cross. Personally, I expected the HST to be further held at Leeds to allow the 1815 Leeds > Kings Cross and the 18:11 Glasgow > Plymouth to run ahead. The Azuma was 8 late from Leeds and was further delayed en route arriving 25 late I suspect because of the extra HST stop at Retford and the long stop at Leeds. The HST stops at Newark & Doncaster also seemed elongated.

Perhaps, from experience, the signaller simply wasn't expecting such an impressively rapid turnround on the HST? Or would risk PPM-failing the Northern when the HST would have failed PPM regardless.

The later.
 

43096

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According to my notes 3 sets (EC56, EC60 and EC64) have all had 2 vehicles removed and I believe all of these 6 vehicles are presently at Craigentinny.

I believe the vehicles in question are 42241 & 42244 from EC56 (the set for the farewell trips) and 42125 & 42205 from EC64 (stored at Tyne Yard).

I don't know the identities of the 2 vehicles from EC60 (stored at Ely), however I think 1 of them is a first class carriage based on a photo I ahve seen elsewhere.

Hope this helps.
EC60 shows as formed 41164 40742 42355 42357 42134 42122 44031, so that would suggest 41066 and 42116(I think) are the two removed.
 

Helvellyn

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Found a video of the LNER BR blue/gray mk 3s being taken out of Doncaster.
That set looks really good. I do stand by my comment that lower blue bodyside comes up too high - even where people have posted pictures showing the grey band being narrower on HSTs there was still an even amount of grey above and below the windows. However, you can see in the clip that there is less grey below the windows than above on the repainted set. I guess that makes me the Craig Revel-Horwood here - giving it a 9 whilst the majority will give it a 10!

But this does remain a fantastic send off by LNER and I think there will be so many fantastic photos over the next four days.

Now, let's see if next Summer we get a set of Mark 4s in InterCity livery to match the Class 91. That would be an equally fitting send off.
 

Speed43125

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That set looks really good. I do stand by my comment that lower blue bodyside comes up too high - even where people have posted pictures showing the grey band being narrower on HSTs there was still an even amount of grey above and below the windows. However, you can see in the clip that there is less grey below the windows than above on the repainted set. I guess that makes me the Craig Revel-Horwood here - giving it a 9 whilst the majority will give it a 10!

But this does remain a fantastic send off by LNER and I think there will be so many fantastic photos over the next four days.

Now, let's see if next Summer we get a set of Mark 4s in InterCity livery to match the Class 91. That would be an equally fitting send off.
I really doubt the 225s are iconic enough. Nor have they spent as long in service. A part of me is concerned we'll never actually see anything close to a full 225 rake in IC swallow ever...
 

bramling

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Correct regulation by the Harrogate signalman - rightly or wrongly the rail industry has chosen to go with regulation by PPM, the HST had already well and truly failed PPM with no chance or recovery, the Northern service ex York was let to depart first and did made PPM at Leeds. The Harrogate signaller would only have been following his instructions agreed by all TOCs including LNER and Northern.

Not saying it’s right and frustrating if on the HST but it’s what the industry has signed up to and that evening there was 1 PPM failure from 2 trains instead of both likely failing if the HST had been sent first.

Rightly or wrongly this sort of regulating is utterly infuriating to a passenger who is trying to get somewhere, which is kind of the point of rail travel. A train which is a few minutes late can suddenly become massively late, simply for want of putting a couple more minutes on something else. Typical for an industry focussed on scorecard measures, and stuff the people for whom the service runs.
 

IanXC

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Rightly or wrongly this sort of regulating is utterly infuriating to a passenger who is trying to get somewhere, which is kind of the point of rail travel. A train which is a few minutes late can suddenly become massively late, simply for want of putting a couple more minutes on something else. Typical for an industry focussed on scorecard measures, and stuff the people for whom the service runs.

Ultimately in these kind of situations its usually a choice between:

- A late running train being regulated and held as appropriate to keep everything else on time, so for instance just that one train has to terminate short or whatever.
- Allowing the delay to spiral and a huge number of other trains becoming late, and inconveniencing all their passengers too.

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-includes-images.143579/page-161#post-4177740 for an example of exactly this.
 

4REP

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I really doubt the 225s are iconic enough. Nor have they spent as long in service. A part of me is concerned we'll never actually see anything close to a full 225 rake in IC swallow ever...
The 225s are iconic as they were a milestone and represented the ECML electrification being the first 140mph loco the UK has had.
They have achieved good timings on the Edinburgh route under 4 hours etc.
 
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The 225s are iconic as they were a milestone and represented the ECML electrification being the first 140mph loco the UK has had.
They have achieved good timings on the Edinburgh route under 4 hours etc.

Not to mention one broke 160mph! Apart from the APT and Eurostars they're the fastest trains we have. I personally expect to see just as much fanfare when they leave as the HSTs.
 

greatvoyager

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Not to mention one broke 160mph! Apart from the APT and Eurostars they're the fastest trains we have. I personally expect to see just as much fanfare when they leave as the HSTs.
True, but the 125 has been used on most main lines. Also, the HST is more impressive, considering it was envisaged as a temporary solution, yet became the backbone of express trains in the UK.
 

sprinterguy

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True, but the 125 has been used on most main lines.
Indeed, the facts and figures are all great but I don't think that the 225 sets ever entered the public consciousness in the same way as the 125s did, being restricted to a single main line corridor. The HSTs were groundbreaking as the first regular 100mph+ passenger service in the UK and the world's fastest diesel train, and they could be found all over Britain.
 

greatvoyager

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Indeed, the facts and figures are all great but I don't think that the 225 sets ever entered the public consciousness in the same way as the 125s did, being restricted to a single main line corridor. The HSTs were groundbreaking as the first regular 100mph+ passenger service in the UK and the world's fastest diesel train, and they could be found all over Britain.
Also, HSTs appeared in tv ads, so they were further engrained in the public mind.
 
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Indeed, the facts and figures are all great but I don't think that the 225 sets ever entered the public consciousness in the same way as the 125s did, being restricted to a single main line corridor. The HSTs were groundbreaking as the first regular 100mph+ passenger service in the UK and the world's fastest diesel train, and they could be found all over Britain.

I guess that's true. But I still don't want to see them forgotten. They're such impressive locos.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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True, but the 125 has been used on most main lines. Also, the HST is more impressive, considering it was envisaged as a temporary solution, yet became the backbone of express trains in the UK.
But Pacers were envisaged as a temporary solution, yet became the backbone of Regional trains in the capital city of Wales and also in most of Northern England ;)
 

43 302

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Indeed, the facts and figures are all great but I don't think that the 225 sets ever entered the public consciousness in the same way as the 125s did, being restricted to a single main line corridor. The HSTs were groundbreaking as the first regular 100mph+ passenger service in the UK and the world's fastest diesel train, and they could be found all over Britain.
I agree with what you're saying in terms of the public's view but I think rail enthusiasts etc would be just as interested in a similar send off tour for the InterCity 225. Perhaps a complete set in swallow livery.
 

sprinterguy

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I guess that's true. But I still don't want to see them forgotten. They're such impressive locos.
Oh aye, I like the class 91s a lot, they seemed very futuristic when the first example rolled out of Crewe works. And the way Swallow livery was applied to them was incredibly striking, it would be pleasing to see a complete rake in that livery just once more. I just don't feel that they've ever become as iconic as the HST fleet.
Don’t forget MkIV. A major improvement on HST stock.
That wasn't commonly felt to be the case in terms of ride quality or interior design in BR days!
 

Neptune

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Indeed, the facts and figures are all great but I don't think that the 225 sets ever entered the public consciousness in the same way as the 125s did, being restricted to a single main line corridor. The HSTs were groundbreaking as the first regular 100mph+ passenger service in the UK and the world's fastest diesel train, and they could be found all over Britain.
Deltics were on the mainline for just 20 years on a single route (except when they escaped onto the transpennine route on a few limited services in their twilight). They had rather a large fanfare at the end including one repainted back into green.

Yes the 91’s aren’t quite as iconic as the HST but they are deserving of a good send off. They did revolutionise ECML travel when they came into service in much the same way as the HST’s.
 

Dave91131

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43290 + 43317 with set EC53 currently heading to Craigentinny, presumably in readiness for transfer to EMR.

Shame it couldn't be used to run a few of the services which LNER have decided to cancel today.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1207230469793816576 the set looks absolutely superb - but notice the undeniably high line of the grey band on the Mk3s isn't too high on the power cars! Still, its nit-picking. I hope the set is preserved and makes it onto GWR metals in the future
Looks nice but it is such a waste of time and money! LNER should be spending this on maintaining the 91s and looking after the short forms on 80X, the amount of cancellations I’ve had with LNER lately is appalling.
 

Yorkshire222

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Indeed, the facts and figures are all great but I don't think that the 225 sets ever entered the public consciousness in the same way as the 125s did, being restricted to a single main line corridor. The HSTs were groundbreaking as the first regular 100mph+ passenger service in the UK and the world's fastest diesel train, and they could be found all over Britain.

Certainly they never entered my consciousness. I was at University in Reading in 1977 about the time HST sets were being introduced and it was amazing to travel on these futuristic trains into Paddington compared to 47s/50s towing mark 2s or even mark 1s. Then I moved to Bedford and the HSTs eventually followed me, displacing aging 45s (which I also remain fond of). I rarely traveled on the ECML and still consider 91s to be very ugly compared to HSTs (apart from the ones which have had buffers added which completely detract from their looks). Even today a HST with a rake of mark 3s is a damn good looking train.
 

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