Locked in at Blackburn Station

[miklcct]

I think you're rather missing the point that fire escapes can be locked when a building is empty and the station was almost certainly locked up in the belief that it was empty.

So I believe this law is unsafe - a safe law should be written as "fire escapes must be able to be opened from inside a building anytime".

 

[WesternLancer]

So I believe this law is unsafe - a safe law should be written as "fire escapes must be able to be opened from inside a building anytime".

Ideally yes, but see reasons up thread where it is explained why this is not the case. All fire safety is a compromise at some point.

 

[najaB]

So I believe this law is unsafe - a safe law should be written as "fire escapes must be able to be opened from inside a building anytime".

In a perfect world, yes. However a door that can be easily opened from the inside is, automatically, easier to be opened from the outside than one which cannot.

 

[robbeech]

There is a clue in the word "keyholder". If there genuinely isn't someone with the keys at home, there should be. It is essential for any business in case of an emergency.



That might be where they were but isn't good enough, and so Northern need to have someone who actually lives in Blackburn who actually holds the keys i.e. has a set at home. Or as an alternative store them on site in a key safe.

Even if this were practical I don’t see how anyone would enforce it. They’d just as they please.

We received an email on Saturday offering a compensation amount. We dismissed this and have asked Northern to reconsider.
The amount offered at this moment will remain private, however, in our opinion, it didn't reflect the seriousness of the event and also take into consideration how serious this could have been. The offer was based on no conclusive evidence as to what had happened and was to close the matter in full.

as expected, they would like the problem to go away rather than do anything to prevent it happening again.

I think you're rather missing the point that fire escapes can be locked when a building is empty and the station was almost certainly locked up in the belief that it was empty.

Whilst not the correct term officially, offences relating to this type of thing would be “strict liability” so whilst they might take into account a member of staff locking a fire exit thinking it was empty which can rule out any malicious doings, it won’t absolve the staff member / operator (delete as appropriate) of offenses relating to the act of locking a fire exit whilst the building was in use as per its risk assessment.

 

[miklcct]

In a perfect world, yes. However a door that can be easily opened from the inside is, automatically, easier to be opened from the outside than one which cannot.

I think this incident should be reported to newspaper and escalated to the MPs, such that action can be taken before a disaster happens.

 

[30907]

I provided another example of TPE doing this exact thing up thread with Stalybridge station on a Sunday morning. Same exact circumstances.

"Same" in the sense that in both cases the station could not be entered - I suggest the Blackburn incident is more serious.

 

[_toommm_]

"Same" in the sense that in both cases the station could not be entered - I suggest the Blackburn incident is more serious.

I was referring to two same situations at Stalybridge, not comparing Stalybridge and Blackburn.

 

[Bertie the bus]

"Same" in the sense that in both cases the station could not be entered - I suggest the Blackburn incident is more serious.

People do alight from trains as well. I'm pretty certain a passenger on the train when Rochdale wasn't unlocked in the morning posted on this forum regarding how they couldn't exit the station.

 

[30907]

People do alight from trains as well. I'm pretty certain a passenger on the train when Rochdale wasn't unlocked in the morning posted on this forum regarding how they couldn't exit the station.

Fair point.

 

[najaB]

I think this incident should be reported to newspaper and escalated to the MPs, such that action can be taken before a disaster happens.

Let's not blow things out of proportion. Could processes be improved? Probably. But there's a big delta between four passengers being detained for a few hours and a "disaster".

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Given how little there is in the passenger-facing part of a railway station that would be worth stealing (the booking office typically being behind roller shutters or security glass, and TVMs secured in their own right and often outside anyway) it strikes me that the answer here is that all railway stations that don't have access to the platforms that doesn't go via the building should have fire escapes usable at all times unless the building is always left unlocked (as per e.g. Bletchley, as the overnight gap in service is too short to bother). Yes, they're easier to break into than locked doors, but railway stations aren't hard to break into anyway, you can gain access to the track and walk along while trains aren't running.

I would go further, is there a need to lock up railway stations (the public areas, not individual buildings) at all? Trespass and vandalism seems to happen regardless, often in areas where the public never has a right to be at any time e.g. graffiti on cutting walls, rolling stock in depots.

Looking outside the railway, your local shopping centre in Milton Keynes was specifically intended to be open all hours - with shop leases instructing lessees to install 'proper' secure shopfronts as though they were on a street. The open all hours access was done away with, causing angst at the time.

In the case of Blackburn, in its previous allover roof format, I can see that locking up would be required due to the number of buildings up on the platform - offices of various kinds, waiting rooms, latterly many disused areas, and the large ship model in it's glass case. Since it's 'improvement' the only building is the new ticket office up on the platform which, as you say, will be secure in itself. Downstairs there is the old ticket office, presumably secure (as the former ticket office and now the Transdev staff room?) and the Travellers Fare buffet (whatever it is now, I remember it and used it as such) which has openings to the street if you are that intent on causing trouble. Other than those there there is a subway and a glass shelter - many of which are open to public abuse 24/7 throughout the land.

 

[greyman42]

There is a clue in the word "keyholder". If there genuinely isn't someone with the keys at home, there should be. It is essential for any business in case of an emergency.

Could the local fire station not hold a spare key?

 

[bramling]

Let's not blow things out of proportion.

I have to say I do find this thread is rather on the neurotic side, and likewise the clamour for compensation.

The incident shouldn't have happened, and for sure the TOC needs to take steps to prevent a recurrence (and perhaps ensure their operating practices are robust), but in the grand scheme of things there's a lot worse happening in the world at the moment.

Sense of perspective needed - handful of passengers accidentally locked in a non-sub-surface station simply isn't the world's end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could the local fire station not hold a spare key?

Having one in a key safe on site with a range of people knowing the code (emergency services plus other company staff locally) might be a reasonable workaround.

 

[warwickshire]

First North Western (Rochdale), Transpennine Express, (Stalybridge) and now Northern have form for locking stations up leaving passengers crossing the tracks to exit or enter the station. The former two guilty parties, First North Western & Firstgroup TPE had both cut back on GPR (ie roving standby) staff thus when sickness occurred there was noone to unlock the stations.

Both firms initially denied this, but after grown-ups (HMRI/ORR I think) intervened promises were made to not do it again.

I'm guessing this was a failure by Northern control to tell staff to stay late due to the late running, unless a procedure is in place requiring staff on site to check.

Passengers take lives in their hands after Stalybridge station fails to open on time

People waiting for the first train from the Tameside station jumped down onto the railway and ran across tracks just minutes before the service arrived.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Under first north Western days a common station was Cheadle hulme. Especially on a Saturday night.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

To anyone thinking it is OK to lock fire escapes, look up the Summerland disaster in the Isle of Man.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would go further, is there a need to lock up railway stations (the public areas, not individual buildings) at all? Trespass and vandalism seems to happen regardless, often in areas where the public never has a right to be at any time e.g. graffiti on cutting walls, rolling stock in depots.

Neither Bletchley nor MKC gets locked up other than on Christmas Day and Boxing Day - the overnight gap is too short. MKC does have security staff 24/7, but Bletchley doesn't (it did for a bit but they aren't there all the time now).

Looking outside the railway, your local shopping centre in Milton Keynes was specifically intended to be open all hours - with shop leases instructing lessees to install 'proper' secure shopfronts as though they were on a street. The open all hours access was done away with, causing angst at the time.

I understand the reason for locking it up wasn't vandalism or similar, but rather was because of leaves blowing in and the lack of doors being inefficient in terms of heating it. The "new bit" (Midsummer Place) doesn't have lockable doors on the main central area, though I think the side malls do. But there was a lot of objection because with it being about 1km long, if you want to cross it at night you either have to walk up to 1km extra or walk along Secklow Gate which goes over the top and only sort-of has pavements (they are rough cobbled verges really, no use in a wheelchair). There was a more recent proposal to remove Secklow Gate, which many people (including me) objected to unless a 24/7 through route was reinstated and required in perpetuity as a public right of way.

To anyone thinking it is OK to lock fire escapes, look up the Summerland disaster in the Isle of Man.

I don't think anyone thinks locking fire escapes when people are on site is OK. But you do need a robust process for ensuring the person unlocking the building does unlock them.

 

[bramling]

To anyone thinking it is OK to lock fire escapes, look up the Summerland disaster in the Isle of Man.

No one has said it is ok. However there's a massive difference between a handful of people locked in a predominantly open-air station in the small hours, and an enclosed building with hundreds of people in it.

Sense of perspective sorely needed here.

 

[Killingworth]

I have to say I do find this thread is rather on the neurotic side, and likewise the clamour for compensation.

The incident shouldn't have happened, and for sure the TOC needs to take steps to prevent a recurrence (and perhaps ensure their operating practices are robust), but in the grand scheme of things there's a lot worse happening in the world at the moment.

Sense of perspective needed - handful of passengers accidentally locked in a non-sub-surface station simply isn't the world's end.

Where did I see that story of a bank clerk being locked in the vault over a weekend? Probably Dad's Army, but silly mistakes happen. We all do it occasionally. Someone will be feeling very stupid for leaving early, particularly if they find this thread.

For many years I was a duty key holder and the police had my contact details. I had to attend a few call outs and they were usually after midnight. More than 5 years after I left I got a call at 2 am. Woken at that hour I was already jumping out of bed in auto mode when I remembered. Someone had picked up an old record. Fortunately they had another name and he was still working, if not the duty key holder. I gather rats had got in and set off the movement sensors!!

 

[WesternLancer]

I have to say I do find this thread is rather on the neurotic side, and likewise the clamour for compensation.

The incident shouldn't have happened, and for sure the TOC needs to take steps to prevent a recurrence (and perhaps ensure their operating practices are robust), but in the grand scheme of things there's a lot worse happening in the world at the moment.

Sense of perspective needed - handful of passengers accidentally locked in a non-sub-surface station simply isn't the world's end.

I do tend to think this thread has run its course....
beyond the update from the OP about Northern's responses.

 

[Cowley]

I do tend to think this thread has run its course....
beyond the update from the OP about Northern's responses.

I think it probably has too…
If @joke2711 would like to get in touch with us once they’ve received a reply so that we can update the thread that’d be great. Until then thanks everyone.

 

[Cowley]

Thread unlocked for @joke2711 to update.

 

[joke2711]

To update everyone

I have been impressed with Northern over their proactive response to this incident.

In summary,

It is confirmed that there was a staff error and this is going through due process. I cannot comment any further on this and do not expect any further updates from Northern either.

Northern have informed us that they have added a new key safe internally at Blackburn Station so that if such a problem arose again, there would be access to a key via control. Also there is going to be a review of keyholders and a new process introduced at the Station. Personally I do hope that this is reviewed across the Network as it wasn't acceptable for a Blackpool based member of staff to have to travel to Blackburn.

A settlement figure has been agreed which is both reasonable and takes into account that this could have been a very serious failing.


Thank you to everyone who took an interest in this and added to the discussion.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for updating. Glad they took the issue seriously; this is the sort of response I would have expected.

 

[najaB]

Thank you to everyone who took an interest in this and added to the discussion.

Glad that you have achieved a satisfactory resolution.

 

[Gathursty]

I would hope that the keys for Wigan North Western and Wigan Wallgate are kept at Wigan North Western and Wigan Wallgate instead of 40 miles away.

 

[Gloster]

I would hope that the keys for Wigan North Western and Wigan Wallgate are kept at Wigan North Western and Wigan Wallgate instead of 40 miles away.

Or vice versa.

 

[Horizon22]

Sounds like a good conclusion and that the OP is happy enough. I'm sure Northern will be going through their own internal process as to how the staff error occurred but, as mentioned, we probably won't hear any more about that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is definitely a good outcome, it sounds like they are doing all the things that were suggested upthread that they should do.

 

[75A]

Well done Northern, very well handled.