London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[FOH]

I would say there is nothing personal in the comments at all and we're all aware of the effort put in. I'm sure I'm not the only one who (mostly quietly) put up with poor services since August knowing that the pain would transfer to Southeastern in January. It's therefore through frustration that I've been outpouring on here recently.
I also don't buy the information screens argument as I'm still 50% down on services in the evening peak and those that do run are still heavily disrupted, 12late yesterday and 15late tonight.
I do respect you Bald Rick for posting, taking the flak and giving us all very interesting information. If any of you post on DD your situation reminds me of MetControl when the new Metropolitan timetable was introduced a few years ago.
I very much appreciate your posting and heart shown and do wish you all get a well deserved break soon. I feel the programme is a victim of all the huge amount of advertising of the closures. Since everyone knew they were happening there was the assumption, mine included, that outside of those hours all would be normal. I do understand however that it would've been politically untenable to say there will be years of disruption non-stop.
The above all said I do think Southern have questions to ask themselves regarding a timetable that seems to have (in my opinion) far too much swapping of drivers and attach/detach operations at London Bridge.

 

[TheJRB]

I'm sorry, but I'm now going to be annoyed.

Whenever 'the railway' screws up, it gets lambasted from all angles. Last week London Bridge was on the front page of the Standard, ultimately because of a relatively simple error in the placement of information screens. And now some people I know very well are off to be grilled by the rail minister and lots of MPs as a result.

But the attitude when something that is 3 years in the planning goes exactly to plan appears to be "it's not surprising", implying that it is all rather easy, and that nothing less than perfection is expected.

I cannot tell you how hard thousands of people have worked over the last weeks, months and years to get this week right. The timetable that started yesterday is the result of 2 years hard graft by a small group of planners who have written, checked, and rewritten it several times; and a much larger group of people planning, risk assessing and briefing every last detail of the operation for the last 6 months. Every single day over Christmas / New Year, over 1000 people worked on the project to rebuild London Bridge. Every single day since it reopened, the station management team have been working all possible hours - much of it unpaid - to keep the station open and moving. (And been subject to a ceaseless tirade of abuse from passengers, but that's another story). Those of us closely involved have been watching events unfold, particularly last Monday, with deep concern where things have not gone to plan. Personally, I did a 75 hour week last week and haven't slept properly, or had any time with my kids, this year.


So it would be nice, occasionally, that when something goes right, that the message back is not:

"well what do you expect, it wasn't hard was it", but,

"well done for being ambitious and succeeding"

It's an unfortunate part of modern society or more likely humanity in general in that people are very loud when something is wrong and very quiet when something good happens. I try to consciously behave otherwise and things like writing a note of praise when something good happens (like when staff helped me get my railcard back when I dropped it a while back) or showing simple courtesy in the form of please and thank you isn't difficult to do and improves everybody's day.

So thank you and thanks to everybody involved. I wouldn't like to imagine the scale of work necessary both to plan and then implement the changes, all at one of the busiest stations on the network which still has to remain open during the works.

 

[67018]

I'm sorry, but I'm now going to be annoyed.

Whenever 'the railway' screws up, it gets lambasted from all angles. Last week London Bridge was on the front page of the Standard, ultimately because of a relatively simple error in the placement of information screens. And now some people I know very well are off to be grilled by the rail minister and lots of MPs as a result.

But the attitude when something that is 3 years in the planning goes exactly to plan appears to be "it's not surprising", implying that it is all rather easy, and that nothing less than perfection is expected.

I cannot tell you how hard thousands of people have worked over the last weeks, months and years to get this week right. The timetable that started yesterday is the result of 2 years hard graft by a small group of planners who have written, checked, and rewritten it several times; and a much larger group of people planning, risk assessing and briefing every last detail of the operation for the last 6 months. Every single day over Christmas / New Year, over 1000 people worked on the project to rebuild London Bridge. Every single day since it reopened, the station management team have been working all possible hours - much of it unpaid - to keep the station open and moving. (And been subject to a ceaseless tirade of abuse from passengers, but that's another story). Those of us closely involved have been watching events unfold, particularly last Monday, with deep concern where things have not gone to plan. Personally, I did a 75 hour week last week and haven't slept properly, or had any time with my kids, this year.


So it would be nice, occasionally, that when something goes right, that the message back is not:

"well what do you expect, it wasn't hard was it", but,

"well done for being ambitious and succeeding"

Well said. If it's any consolation, it's not confined to the railways - my experience in other industries is that the project team work their backsides off to deliver a complex change and get it 99% right - then, just when they are knackered from getting it over the line, get a load of grief from the armchair experts about the other 1%.

At least in my line of work the MP grillings aren't on the agenda!

 

[Bald Rick]

I also don't buy the information screens argument as I'm still 50% down on services in the evening peak and those that do run are still heavily disrupted, 12late yesterday and 15late tonight.

Oh the timetable is a challenge for sure. Plenty of work to do there. And it is getting better, albeit too slowly.

My point is that it was the info screens which caused the crowding on (part of) the concourse, and this prompted the pictures, which prompted the Standard, which then provided a story which the world and his wife had an opinion, which prompted the MPs. Firmly believe that without the pictures, the fact that Southern are running a number of late trains would not be news, except perhaps on a few 'specialist' websites like this.

 

[FOH]

My point is that it was the info screens which caused the crowding on (part of) the concourse, and this prompted the pictures, which prompted the Standard, which then provided a story which the world and his wife had an opinion, which prompted the MPs. Firmly believe that without the pictures, the fact that Southern are running a number of late trains would not be news, except perhaps on a few 'specialist' websites like this.

Yes and I think I agree with you. Perhaps the initial placement was rather naive but then, as Southeastern has shown, things do go well too. I said it before, if Southern had been capable of running to the timetable without mass cancellations and delays, the hordes would not have been standing back on the concourse causing the crush, the placement simply exacerbating the issue.

 

[Deepgreen]

Half the capacity?

Probably refers (rightly or wrongly) to the reduction from six to three approach roads at Bermondsey.

 

[swt_passenger]

Probably refers (rightly or wrongly) to the reduction from six to three approach roads at Bermondsey.

I'm trying to get my head round this 'three roads' issue in the longer term, because in the final layout, (referencing the June 2012 CPPN in case it has changed) there is still a 3 track section immediately outside the station. So presumably the final (is it 22 tph?) timetable for 'Southern' into the terminating platforms can be supported with a three track approach at the throat, as long as it is mainly four tracks further out?

Is the extra couple of tph they are supposed to be running today the straw that breaks the camel's back?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm trying to get my head round this 'three roads' issue in the longer term, because in the final layout, (referencing the June 2012 CPPN in case it has changed) there is still a 3 track section immediately outside the station. So presumably the final (is it 22 tph?) timetable for 'Southern' into the terminating platforms can be supported with a three track approach at the throat, as long as it is mainly four tracks further out?

Is the extra couple of tph they are supposed to be running today the straw that breaks the camel's back?

It's 20 tph Post 2018. And that works fine, it's been proved in action!

 

[swt_passenger]

It's 20 tph Post 2018. And that works fine, it's been proved in action!

Ah thanks - that makes more sense, must try and find where I got 22 from...

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah thanks - that makes more sense, must try and find where I got 22 from...

Might have been the TSGN ITT.

 

[neilm]

All lines blocked on the southern side for the past few hours.

 

[Deepgreen]

Oh, not again!

 

[LBSCR Times]

Same points failed twice in quick succession.
Staff remaining on site.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm trying to get my head round this 'three roads' issue in the longer term, because in the final layout, (referencing the June 2012 CPPN in case it has changed) there is still a 3 track section immediately outside the station. So presumably the final (is it 22 tph?) timetable for 'Southern' into the terminating platforms can be supported with a three track approach at the throat, as long as it is mainly four tracks further out?

Is the extra couple of tph they are supposed to be running today the straw that breaks the camel's back?

I think the thing that needs to be borne in mind is that the four track layout from Bermondsey/New Cross Gate area southwards will actually feed into a five track layout once the Thameslink fly-under is included, despite the counter-intuitive apparent bottle-neck that the three road 'Southern' section provides into the terminal platforms.

 

[Tangent]

I'm sorry, but I'm now going to be annoyed.

Whenever 'the railway' screws up, it gets lambasted from all angles. Last week London Bridge was on the front page of the Standard, ultimately because of a relatively simple error in the placement of information screens. And now some people I know very well are off to be grilled by the rail minister and lots of MPs as a result.

But the attitude when something that is 3 years in the planning goes exactly to plan appears to be "it's not surprising", implying that it is all rather easy, and that nothing less than perfection is expected.

I cannot tell you how hard thousands of people have worked over the last weeks, months and years to get this week right. The timetable that started yesterday is the result of 2 years hard graft by a small group of planners who have written, checked, and rewritten it several times; and a much larger group of people planning, risk assessing and briefing every last detail of the operation for the last 6 months. Every single day over Christmas / New Year, over 1000 people worked on the project to rebuild London Bridge. Every single day since it reopened, the station management team have been working all possible hours - much of it unpaid - to keep the station open and moving. (And been subject to a ceaseless tirade of abuse from passengers, but that's another story). Those of us closely involved have been watching events unfold, particularly last Monday, with deep concern where things have not gone to plan. Personally, I did a 75 hour week last week and haven't slept properly, or had any time with my kids, this year.


So it would be nice, occasionally, that when something goes right, that the message back is not:

"well what do you expect, it wasn't hard was it", but,

"well done for being ambitious and succeeding"

I would certainly like to thank you and your colleagues for your huge efforts, BR - and I could see the trouble which went into coping with the increased loads of passengers, for example.

The main problem is that practically no one, not even regular commuters on the line, seems to recognise the sheer magnitude of this project, or the challenges involved, unless they have an interest in railways. The problems are just written off as semi-routine works and maintenance by many.

 

[Bald Rick]

The main problem is that practically no one, not even regular commuters on the line, seems to recognise the sheer magnitude of this project, or the challenges involved, unless they have an interest in railways. The problems are just written off as semi-routine works and maintenance by many.

Well part of that is self inflicted - for some reason the rail industry doesn't like shouting about the good work it is doing. The shining exception is Crossrail, which is doing a grand job in putting out positive news stories.

 

[as1981]

Well said. If it's any consolation, it's not confined to the railways - my experience in other industries is that the project team work their backsides off to deliver a complex change and get it 99% right - then, just when they are knackered from getting it over the line, get a load of grief from the armchair experts about the other 1%.

At least in my line of work the MP grillings aren't on the agenda!

Firstly the only reason I haven't also embedded BaldRick's message in the quote is because I don't know how to.

I 100% agree with you both. I work in IT and it's exactly the same, you work long hours to fix what you can and all that happens is that:

a) The users moan about the other stuff
b) The management (MPs in your case) turn up at some sociable hour (having previously stated 'call me if you need to' and then not answered their phone, state the obvious, choose the most stupid moment for an 'update', don't back you up unless it suits them, totally ignore all the good work you've done and claim all the credit for solving the problem they probably still don't understand anyway.

I've lost count of the number of times I think "Why did I bother". I once worked on something at about 11pm at night (having done a day shift), at home so I don't get anything for it, sent an internal email out to inform people and one of the management responses the next morning only contained a comment about a typing mistake! Mad wasn't even close to my reaction.

I know it doesn't solve your problem but perhaps it makes you feel better that you're not the only one.

It really shouldn't be like this but it is I hope it changes one day but I doubt it

 

[Stats]

Joint statement from Network Rail and Southern

Performance - A statement from Network Rail and Southern

Southern and Network Rail accept that performance on the Brighton Main Line and routes into London Bridge has not been good enough and we understand passengers' frustration when things go wrong.

Both companies are working hard together to improve reliability and investing heavily in improving the reliability of trains and infrastructure.

Network Rail's area director Steve Knight said: "Trains to Victoria and London Bridge travel over the most congested part of the whole of Britain's railway network and we are constantly pushing against the boundaries of what is physically possible on the infrastructure.

“We are striking a balance between running as many trains as we can when people want them - which is overwhelmingly in peak times - and improving punctuality. The sheer number of trains also means that knock-on delays are magnified: for example a delay of one minute to one train in peak times will quickly delay more than 25 other services.

"To make things better we are rebuilding the railway around Bermondsey and London Bridge, which will make a huge difference to reliability. While the work is going on we are operating with reduced capacity, but we are doing all we can to continue to run as many trains as possible."

David Scorey, Southern Deputy Managing Director said: “We understand our passengers’ frustration and apologise for the levels of performance they are currently experiencing.

“We and Network Rail are creating a joint improvement plan for the railway to improve the reliability of the infrastructure and are working on timetable improvements to certain trains in peak times - including around London Bridge.”

http://www.southernrailway.com/southern/news/performance-a-statement-from-network-rail-and-southern/

 

[neilm]

Well part of that is self inflicted - for some reason the rail industry doesn't like shouting about the good work it is doing. The shining exception is Crossrail, which is doing a grand job in putting out positive news stories.

Agree, no where on the Thameslink programme website or leaflets does it provide any real information about it, certainly nothing about the bermondsey dive under.

 

[Abpj17]

The main problem is that practically no one, not even regular commuters on the line, seems to recognise the sheer magnitude of this project, or the challenges involved, unless they have an interest in railways. The problems are just written off as semi-routine works and maintenance by many.

I'm not sure which camp I'm in...but that might be part of it, but I'm not entirely persuaded.

For the longer-standing commuters, they'll recall its part of the Thameslink 2000 programme. And those approach London Bridge from the north on a regular basis are reasonably familiar with the core problems, and going back further would remember the magnitude of building St Pancras and the core closing. I'm sure those comes from the south will have their memories too.

 

[JauntyAlan]

Well part of that is self inflicted - for some reason the rail industry doesn't like shouting about the good work it is doing. The shining exception is Crossrail, which is doing a grand job in putting out positive news stories.

Even if it did shout about it, it seems to me a lot of passengers suffering at London Bridge aren't pre-disposed to think kindly of all this work anyway.

Certainly for me on the Peckham line I've seen a station getting increasingly inhospitable, offering fewer and less reliable trains, plus extended cattle-pen humiliation, with promises of more to come for years. To boot, we also lost the South London Line, and now have a derisory service to Victoria.

And what will the reward be at the end of all this? Better journeys for people from Brighton, I think. Perhaps after seven years of this our London Bridge service will return to something approaching what we had in 2011, maybe.

I'm not alone, as my rammed trains tell me. So that's a substantial number of people going through London Bridge at peak, suffering major inconvenience, for work that will really bring them little benefit.

Also, shouting about the "good work" is a bit risky before it's actually come off: I had to grimly chuckle in the queues when I read the piece in this month's Wired talking about a consultancy's "key insight" that led to moving the information screens:
http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2015/01/start/helping-millions-go-with-the-flow

(This is not at all to disparage the work you folks have been putting in Rick; it's definitely a monumental operation and you've got all my sympathies. I just suspect I'm not alone in wishing it had never been done at all, or at least we'd just stuck with the Thameslink 2000 plan that as I understand it called for the viaduct and not much else.)

 

[Deepgreen]

Poor last night and dire this morning. 1659 London Bridge to Horsham cancelled last night, so caught the 1657 Littlehampton (which was 8 instead of 12 cars) to East Croydon. Once there, discovered that the 1659 wasn't fully "cancelled" but was starting from there. However, very helpfully, we weren't told that at London Bridge! Hopped on and sat in the front 1st section, and was joined there by Charles Horton (MD of the TOC), with whom I worked briefly years ago. Decided not to say anything!

This morning, caught the 0840 to London Bridge from Redhill, which was nearly 40 late leaving owing to flooding at Nutfield delaying the ex-Tonbridge portion. The 0853 Victoria came in alongside and we all just sat there, presumably waiting for crew. Then we were told we would run non-stop to London Bridge, but as we came into East Croydon, we were terminated there! Things were getting heated by now, especially as we couldn't get on the following Thameslink train. Ended up catching a Victoria train to Clapham Junction, then to Waterloo, then to Canary Wharf. Apparently there was yet another signal failure at London Bridge as well!

It's becoming a very serious regional economic problem now.

 

[BelleIsle]

I wonder if any of the local stakeholders complaining were the same ones who were desperate to retain the SLL at London Bridge?

 

[Taunton]

Can I make a point to all those who seem to think the passengers should just Grin and Bear It through all of this continuing fiasco.

Major civil engineering projects in the middle of an existing operations are very standard stuff, worldwide. That's what professional civil engineers do for a living. Some are done brilliantly, quite a number are OK, and some are completely cocked up. And there doesn't seem to be much correlation between the funds made available and the project falling into whichever of these three categories.

This one is rapidly falling into the last category.

I've already written about the previous big London Bridge change in 1976, miles of track reversed direction, new Borough Market layout, new flyover lines at Lewisham, new signalling throughout, all worked quite nicely and no long term closures, if I remember correctly it was snapped over during the Whitsun Bank Holiday weekend. This was of course in the days before the principal focus of the operators' commercial revenue team was how much they could backcharge Network Rail for delays.

 

[Evvy73]

Looks very chaotic again today due to Signal Problems. Loads of delays and cancellations on the Southern Route.
Thameslink are terminating the LBG bound services at East Croydon.

The occasional problem most people can understand but "Signal Problems" really are daily at the moment.

I've had to start tracking my delay repay claims on a spreadsheet because I am submitting so many and it was getting nigh on impossible to work out which ones I had received a voucher back for and which ones I hadn't!

 

[hwl]

new Southern TT changes for Monday 19th just announced:

PM peak

West Croydons via NXG still removed

Other inbound services re arranged so joining PM peak services in LBG no longer happens. No apparent changes to the departing ones.
(This means major Caterham + Tattenham Corner service changes).

 

[Deepgreen]

At least one joining train still seems to be in place at LBG though; the 1659 to Horsham and Tonbridge, which arrives as two portions at LBG.

 

[hwl]

At least one joining train still seems to be in place at LBG though; the 1659 to Horsham and Tonbridge, which arrives as two portions at LBG.

Oops I only looked at departures after 1700

 

[FOH]

Can anyone confirm if the (now semi-permanent) withdrawal of the West Croydon services is a franchise breach? What are the implications of this? Can they be stripped of their franchise?

 

[swt_passenger]

Can anyone confirm if the (now semi-permanent) withdrawal of the West Croydon services is a franchise breach? What are the implications of this? Can they be stripped of their franchise?

Strip SN of their franchise because NR have removed so much track capacity? I feel confident that DfT will have approved this service removal, there'll be little or no question of penalties for SN at this stage.

Bald Rick will possibly know more, but its nearly all in reaction to infrastructure changes at the moment...