London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[FOH]

Strip SN of their franchise because NR have removed so much track capacity? I feel confident that DfT will have approved this service removal, there'll be little or no question of penalties for SN at this stage.

Bald Rick will possibly know more, but its nearly all in reaction to infrastructure changes at the moment...

Funny thing is, from what I can work out Netwrok Rail have delivered exactly what they said they would. It's Southern that seem incapable of running services effectively.
Are you saying then that if DfT are consulted non-adherence to franchise commitments are allowed?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are you saying then that if DfT are consulted non-adherence to franchise commitments are allowed?

Of course. DfT just need persuading to re-write the franchise spec.

Didn't this happen a few years ago when c2c and NR came up with a timetable found to be unworkable after a few weeks?

 

[Taunton]

I am convinced it's a franchise breach. It's also giving up a peak hour service wholly within the TfL area so I'm interested to see what Sir Peter Hendy has to say about just dumping everyone on the remaining Overground service, which seems unlikely to have the peak hour capacity.

It's not only the cancellation of some of the local train service, the rest of the London Bridge stopping service seems to be getting run non-stop to make up time as well.

All this stuff also about ticket acceptance on other routes grudgingly given only after issues happen each day. Surely it should be given unconditionally now until further notice, so people can start off knowing what they can do.

 

[TimG]

What happens if the tinkering solves nothing?

Will we get to the point where all the seats down one side of the trains are removed and the frequency cut in half?

 

[otomous]

Jaunty Alan, whilst I agree with you about the loss of the London Bridge to Victoria trains, I think it's some of what you say that provokes responses like Bald Rick's! I think sometimes it's due to the simplified publicity that the railway puts out that leads to people not understanding why we go through major works. This is not simply an exercise to obtain "better trains from Brighton."

Ultimately the project should:

- improve overall capacity on Southern routes out of London Bridge by having a minimum of 8 or 12 cars on many main line routes. Which like it or not are massive traffic generators.

- sort trains approaching London Bridge by destination using grade separation rather than crossing each other on the flat as they did thus making it less likely that they will have to queue outside. This should also benefit trains to and from the South London Line as they won't be waiting for Horshams/Tattenhams etc to clear low level platforms.

-provide a more robust service to all terminals for those changing at London Bridge for onwards connections eg if you change there for Charing Cross your train won't be waiting for a Thameslink to get out of it's way any more.

- a complete rebuild of London Bridge that can accomodate far more waiting and circulating than now and in a far more pleasant environment.

- provide what is effectively a new metro route through the centre of London by ramping up the capacity and reliability of the Thameslink core with 20 plus trains an hour compared to none in the peaks now - including the ones that go from Peckham Rye. Think about it terms of being able to change at London Bridge easily on a turn up and go basis - without having to get a bus or tube - for the Eurostar terminal, Kings Cross and St Pancras (for the Eurostar terminal), Farringdon (for the Crossrail and Heathrow) and Luton and Gatwick Airports. Or even some of the eventual destinations of these trains!

I do understand the frustration - believe me it is no fun for the staff either - but we cannot preserve the network in aspic any more. We've had decades of stagnation - indeed a long term reduction in capacity which now has to be reversed to cope with increasing traffic - and there is no easy way of addressing it. It's a case of omelettes and broken eggs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone else beginning to think the extension of the East London Line from New Cross Gate southwards was not such a good move because of the 5 car constraint? It's handy having 8 ELLs plus 4 Southerns an hour Sydenham to New Cross Gate, but how about 8 Southerns (L Bridge - Caterham, Victoria, Sutton, West Croydon I think it used to be) with many being 10 cars then 8 ELLs to change to for going north? Partly serious observation...

 

[JauntyAlan]

I do understand the frustration - believe me it is no fun for the staff either - but we cannot preserve the network in aspic any more. We've had decades of stagnation - indeed a long term reduction in capacity which now has to be reversed to cope with increasing traffic - and there is no easy way of addressing it. It's a case of omelettes and broken eggs.

Thanks for this, and you are right. I was certainly being flip with my throwaway line about Brighton! I guess the crux of the thing is that, even after your description of the benefits, they don't quite feel so compelling that it makes one willing to put up with this continuing grief. With my (yes! selfish and blinkered) Peckham hat on, it feels like:

- Added reliability for trains which in the 8tph days used to be frequent enough for it to not really matter if they were held a few minutes here or there, but which I'll now get fewer of, even if they are a bit longer.

- An improved station, for which read vastly bigger, when at least in the old station I could get very quickly from my (rainy, cold, exposed) platforms either to buses, tube or out into the world very quickly and which now just seems to promise increasing amounts of tramping around.

- The Thameslink changes I can certainly appreciate will be a substantial difference, especially with the frequency, but even that doesn't feel earth-shattering for me: I can already get to Luton, Gatwick, St Pancras and Farringdon without going anywhere near London Bridge, it's just not turn up and go.

So yes, there are benefits for other people at London Bridge, and even other Southern routes, and of course it's impossible to design just so that nobody ever loses out. Perhaps the inner urban stations just have to be those losers for the greater good. But they sure can't be asked to *like* it or suffer it with good cheer in the hope of a better tomorrow.

(And you can't help wondering if there were more tactical things that could have been done to obtain 50-75% of the benefit)

 

[hwl]

Southern were attempting to run more trains than NR reckoned could be run especially the extra inbound ones that join up in the station. I.e. They tried to reduce potential passenger anger. Southern can say they tried and have plenty of evidence that it doesn't work.

From next week Southern are now attempting to run in line with what NR reckoned was the limit. I.e. loose 2 tph and the extra 5 inbound only ones.
Hence why they are unlikely to get to much trouble from DfT.

 

[Taunton]

Southern were attempting to run more trains than NR reckoned could be run.

My understanding is that it's NR who stipulate the capacity, coordinate the timetable between operators, and have the final say-so on whether a timetable is allowed or not. You need to do this with multiple operators on a route to stop one stitching up the other.

 

[Bishopstone]

Tonight, in addition to the West Croydon cancellations, the 17.57 to Brighton and 18.21 to Victoria were cancelled, amongst others. So, an element of slack introduced, one would have thought.

The ECS for my 18.23 did not arrive (only from Streatham) until 18.20, and we didn't depart until 18.29. My connection at Lewes will be broken for the ninth day in nine.

Pleased to hear it's all sorted and back to a punctual service from Monday and beyond.

 

[Hadders]

And you can't help wondering if there were more tactical things that could have been done to obtain 50-75% of the benefit

We've specialised in this approach for decades in this country. Sometimes you just need to do the job properly.

Look at the work done at places like St Pancras, Kings Cross, Reading, Birmingham New Street etc. All of this causes disruption in one way or another but would we really rather this work hadn't been done.

And whilst we're at it, let's hurry up and get HS2 built.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think Baldrick is off on a well deserved break - my understanding is that today's issues were a set of points not installed in the recent blockade. It is very hard work for all staff involved ...across all functions - not to mention the passengers....

 

[Bald Rick]

Not yet, still working...

 

[otomous]

Thanks for this, and you are right. I was certainly being flip with my throwaway line about Brighton! I guess the crux of the thing is that, even after your description of the benefits, they don't quite feel so compelling that it makes one willing to put up with this continuing grief. With my (yes! selfish and blinkered) Peckham hat on, it feels like:

- Added reliability for trains which in the 8tph days used to be frequent enough for it to not really matter if they were held a few minutes here or there, but which I'll now get fewer of, even if they are a bit longer.

- An improved station, for which read vastly bigger, when at least in the old station I could get very quickly from my (rainy, cold, exposed) platforms either to buses, tube or out into the world very quickly and which now just seems to promise increasing amounts of tramping around.

- The Thameslink changes I can certainly appreciate will be a substantial difference, especially with the frequency, but even that doesn't feel earth-shattering for me: I can already get to Luton, Gatwick, St Pancras and Farringdon without going anywhere near London Bridge, it's just not turn up and go.

So yes, there are benefits for other people at London Bridge, and even other Southern routes, and of course it's impossible to design just so that nobody ever loses out. Perhaps the inner urban stations just have to be those losers for the greater good. But they sure can't be asked to *like* it or suffer it with good cheer in the hope of a better tomorrow.

(And you can't help wondering if there were more tactical things that could have been done to obtain 50-75% of the benefit)

Jaunty Alan, yes I also agree that the loss of the Smitham train was poor. But I'm led to believe with increased resilience at London Bridge there are plans to up the frequency through Peckham Rye in years to come - of course there are now the four LOROL trains of varying usefulness which could scupper the restoration of 8tph.

- The point about the old London Bridge was that it could not handle the number of passengers it needs to as well as the projections for ever increasing traffic. Without extra space getting out of the station will get harder and harder, even if you've only got a short distance to go, if it's more crowded it will take longer. Inevitably we would end up with the scenario at Victoria tube station where crowds back up and the station is closed frequently.

- I don't really believe anyone is being asked to put up with this with good cheer, nobody is under any illusions that at best this is a "bear with us" and at worst "snarl and bear it" situation.

- As for strategic measures, Hadders post at 19.20 says it all - sometimes you just need to get the job done. Look at the West Coast debacle - we tried upgrading an existing line in the 60s-70s and now we're doing it again. There's only so much patching up of Victorian assets you can do. HS2 is needed to avoid another upgrade in 20 years. We have the opportunity now to sort the bottlenecks that have dogged pretty much all the trains coming into London Bridge and beyond. It's telling that as much work as possible HAS been done in stages - eg the platform extensions, the station upgrades, the new St Pancras Thameslink, dismantling the roof then taking out 2 platforms at a time, the new Borough Market Viaduct have all been completed over the last 6 years, so it's hardly a short term project as it is. Also remember that BR proposed the plan in 1991!

My main fear is that we WILL end up with a West Coast situation, that because it has been so long in coming, that by the time the last hard hat has been put away, Network Rail will be drawing up plans for a tunnel from London to East Croydon(!)

 

[Busaholic]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone else beginning to think the extension of the East London Line from New Cross Gate southwards was not such a good move because of the 5 car constraint? It's handy having 8 ELLs plus 4 Southerns an hour Sydenham to New Cross Gate, but how about 8 Southerns (L Bridge - Caterham, Victoria, Sutton, West Croydon I think it used to be) with many being 10 cars then 8 ELLs to change to for going north? Partly serious observation...

Yes, always believed it hadn't been thought through sufficiently. Crystal Palace, yes, West Croydon no, so 4ELLs plus 8 Southerns from Sydenham to New Cross Gate. I know it would have been difficult and cost loads but an extension from New Cross of 4tph to Deptford or Lewisham could have brought much more benefit. Now all those people who've 'discovered' Brockley will hi-tail back to Hoxton

 

[neilm]

Still signalling problems, is it still the same points?

 

[Deepgreen]

Diabolical yet again this morning, with yet another signal failure near LBG. The 0840 Redhill to LBG was again very late, and we were told that it would be diverted to Victoria. Then, just before departure, we were told it would terminate at East Croydon (again!). Hopped across the platform at Redhill to the 0853 Victoria, also very late. As we approached Clapham Junction, we overtook the stock of the 0840 (still showing London Bridge as its destination) which, despite having tipped out at East Croydon was for some reason still running on to Victoria, just empty! Must be a lot of spare capacity about if they can run an empty train up to London and out again like this - why could it simply not have remained in service to Victoria?

You couldn't make it up...

 

[FOH]

My latest arrival yet of 2015 - it's usually the evenings that are far far worse. Normal service though with no on board apologies at all - I'm more convinced than ever that the drivers have been told to make no announcements.

 

[hwl]

My latest arrival yet of 2015 - it's usually the evenings that are far far worse. Normal service though with no on board apologies at all - I'm more convinced than ever that the drivers have been told to make no announcements.

The drivers I had yesterday morning evening and this morning were all providing announcements.

 

[Bishopstone]

The drivers I had yesterday morning evening and this morning were all providing announcements.

Likewise - which often wasn't the case last year.

Lewes sometimes keep the Delay Repay leaflets 'under the counter', though. Or maybe the racks empty faster than they can be re-filled.

 

[Taunton]

The amount Govia are collecting from Network Rail for reactionary delay must be immense. They can probably ignore ticket office receipts and just live off their compensation. Time to buy some Govia shares.

 

[otomous]

My latest arrival yet of 2015 - it's usually the evenings that are far far worse. Normal service though with no on board apologies at all - I'm more convinced than ever that the drivers have been told to make no announcements.

To be blunt, drivers are busy concentrating on trying to drive on a brand new railway. The track layout is far more complex than previously, as it's only been open for two weeks no one driver will have yet experienced every combination of route that it's possible to take. We are never given any information about why we are delayed, how long before we leave, etc, etc. If we're lucky we can see lots of trains in front which we can pass on. Usually all we know is that we are standing at a red. We know there is no point contacting the box because they will be too busy to answer non urgent queries. And aren't apologies just a bit hollow and insincere when it's happening all at every day? What's the point?

 

[FOH]

And aren't apologies just a bit hollow and insincere when it's happening all at every day? What's the point?

Understood but disagree - I think it shows sincerity and empathy. Case in point was a few evenings ago when we were delayed by a very late arriving driver. Now, no doubt there was a valid reason for him to be late but a few comments in the carriage assumed he was just lazy as they saw him walk past and then no explanation given.

 

[southern442]

The amount Govia are collecting from Network Rail for reactionary delay must be immense. They can probably ignore ticket office receipts and just live off their compensation. Time to buy some Govia shares.

No wonder they can afford all these millions of electrostars

 

[DynamicSpirit]

To be blunt, drivers are busy concentrating on trying to drive on a brand new railway. The track layout is far more complex than previously, as it's only been open for two weeks no one driver will have yet experienced every combination of route that it's possible to take. We are never given any information about why we are delayed, how long before we leave, etc, etc. If we're lucky we can see lots of trains in front which we can pass on. Usually all we know is that we are standing at a red. We know there is no point contacting the box because they will be too busy to answer non urgent queries. And aren't apologies just a bit hollow and insincere when it's happening all at every day? What's the point?

I agree with FOH that if you have time to say something, it is better to do so. In my experience, even if the driver says no more than something like 'sorry about the wait, we're currently held at a red signal, we'll be on our way as soon as we can' - it might sound like meaningless stating the obvious to you, but as a passenger, it immediately feels like someone cares - and that makes a world of difference.

My only proviso to that is: Don't try reciting anything that sounds like a standard announcement. If you say something like 'Southern apologize for the delay' in a level BBC English voice, that immediately sounds like an automaton and (for me at least) destroys most of the psychological benefit of making the announcement.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If I were you, I would aim for a CHX train, unless your destination is within 5 mins walk of London Bridge. The Cannon St trains will be very busy.

The annoying thing is when you turn up expecting to catch the last morning peak train to stop at London Bridge only for it to be cancelled. And this is after a 30 min walk to this "alternative" station because there are virtually no London Bridge trains at all from my local station

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The annoying thing is when you turn up expecting to catch the last morning peak train to stop at London Bridge only for it to be cancelled. And this is after a 30 min walk to this "alternative" station because there are virtually no London Bridge trains at all from my local station

Out of interest, wouldn't it be quicker to get a CHX train and double back from Waterloo East/Southwark on the Jubilee line? I would expect that to only be about 10 mins longer than going to London Bridge directly.

 

[bicbasher]

The language coming from London Overground director Mike Stubbs on behalf of TfL puts the blame on Southern and Network Rail. An email was sent to passengers yesterday and in stations today.

I apologise for the unacceptable level of service on London Overground's route from Highbury & Islington to West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction.

As you know, there have been significant service issues at London Bridge and both Southern and Network Rail accept that performance has not been good enough. As we share the same tracks as trains operated by Southern to and from London Bridge, there has been a knock on effect on our services.

We are pressing Network Rail and Southern to address these issues as quickly as possible so that we can restore your services to their previous standard. And, as part of our existing programme to improve your service, we are continuing to introduce an extra carriage on your trains to increase capacity.

I will keep you informed of progress.


Yours sincerely,


Mike Stubbs
Director London Overground, Transport for London

 

[ScotGG]

How bad has the LO been? It's normally packed as it is, but 5 car units are being introduced. Has that helped or has it still been a bit of a mess with addiotional people and/or not enogh 5 car?. The unreliability of Souhern from London Bridge makes me think many would go to LO via Jubilee and it'd be pretty terrible.

 

[infobleep]

So at what point do people think the cancelled West Croydon trains each evening will be brought back?

 

[Minstral25]

So at what point do people think the cancelled West Croydon trains each evening will be brought back?

Probably 2018, they fine tuned the timetable to try and make it work. It still needs more cuts so they are unlikely to return fully. They remain withdrawn in Mondays new new timetable