London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[Bishopstone]

Grim. Time to get a moped?

Time to start getting the earlier train (17.22) ideally, as this runs quite reliably. Unfortunately, at present I need to put extra work hours in at both ends of the day.

Perhaps Southern could keep a mini-coach on stand-by at Lewes to transport folk when the connection is missed. I heard a rumour AGA were doing something similar for the East Suffolk at Ipswich.

 

[Antman]

Time to start getting the earlier train (17.22) ideally, as this runs quite reliably. Unfortunately, at present I need to put extra work hours in at both ends of the day.

Perhaps Southern could keep a mini-coach on stand-by at Lewes to transport folk when the connection is missed. I heard a rumour AGA were doing something similar for the East Suffolk at Ipswich.

I've got family in Seaford and they've said the same about missed connections at Lewes, oh well at least there's a warm waiting room there

 

[TimG]

This morning went pretty well!
That said the train I get, 0548 from Brighton, was much busier than it eve used to be. People standing from three bridges. Red hill folk must be very sad.

 

[FOH]

Response from Southern (to someone else not me) posted in another forum

I can fully understand your disappointment about the service to and from London Bridge since the New Year and I’ll try below to cover your specific points.

Firstly on the reinstatement of the West Croydon services - at the moment we can only confirm that these will remain out of the timetable for the next four weeks (as of the end of last week). There is understandably a reluctance to remove services from the timetable given how busy peak trains are but we decided this was necessary and we also made the changes on Monday so that trains that were planned to join up in London Bridge come in already fully formed (which reduces the number of movements into the station and reduces the time these trains spend in the platform). We are now working on a more permanent plan for the operation at London Bridge while Network Rail also reviews the capacity modelling and the method of operation to see how we can optimise it.

Since the station reopened the added delays and disruption particularly to peak services have stemmed mainly from reliability issues and the new layout. Some equipment, for example a set of points at a junction east of London Bridge station near New Cross Gate, has proved unreliable. We understand this equipment needs adjustments as it settles in and Network Rail has a team of engineers out each night checking this to ensure this equipment remains reliable. However, even without incidents the revised infrastructure has struggled to deliver the timetable. In terms of your point about predicting these events, modelling of the new reduced track layout showed that we should be able to run a maximum of 22 trains per hour. However we have found that trains gradually become later during the peaks because minor delays lead to trains quickly queuing at the station which then creates more significant delays. In practice therefore, we have simply not been able to get this number of trains into and out of London Bridge successfully during peak hours despite amending the train service in anticipation of the infrastructure reduction.

Finally, can I assure you that my colleagues are working very hard on an alternative plan for this and as soon as I have something that I can share I will be in touch.

Further information from Southern that changes are a coming:

5th February – London Bridge
Our next meet the manager session is to be held at London Bridge on the Thursday 5th February between 7:30am – 9:30am. As part of our ongoing response to the issues effecting performance of train services in the London Bridge area, we are currently preparing a performance improvement plan in partnership with Network Rail which will be finalised and presented to the Department for Transport on Monday 2nd February. In light of this and the level of feedback we have received from customers in recent weeks we have moved the date of the meet the manager session to the 5th February. By doing this we can provide specific information from the performance improvement plan to customers, detailing exactly how we intend to improve reliability and service punctuality.

 

[infobleep]

South West Trains formed an alliance with Network Rail. Would it be helpful if Southern and Thameslink did something similar with Network Rail?

Would it help reduce delays when problems occur and when they need to make these timetable changes.

 

[swt_passenger]

South West Trains formed an alliance with Network Rail. Would it be helpful if Southern and Thameslink did something similar with Network Rail?

The next (GTR) franchise does include alliancing, it would be from 2016, so after the existing Southern TOC is merged into GTR.

I'm not convinced it has changed much on SWT though. There are still two separate workforces below board level. They just seem to put out joint press releases where there used to be two...

 

[infobleep]

The next (GTR) franchise does include alliancing, it would be from 2016, so after the existing Southern TOC is merged into GTR.

I'm not convinced it has changed much on SWT though. There are still two separate workforces below board level. They just seem to put out joint press releases where there used to be two...

I was told on Twitter last night that Network Rail don't pay South West Trains for Network Rail attributed delays because they are an alliance. That's has to be good as it means the money can be spent on modernising and fixing the day to day issues that come up. It's not always Network Rail's fault the railways have issues, given the lack of investment in the past.

If similar happens with GTR, in terms of not paying money out, that to could be good.

 

[Class377/5]

South West Trains formed an alliance with Network Rail. Would it be helpful if Southern and Thameslink did something similar with Network Rail?

Would it help reduce delays when problems occur and when they need to make these timetable changes.

The alliance between GTR and NR has already started planning for a joint control structure to be introduced next year. Remember what you call Southern turns just into a brand in July with the current GTR management structure in complete control.

 

[Minstral25]

This morning went pretty well!
That said the train I get, 0548 from Brighton, was much busier than it eve used to be. People standing from three bridges. Red hill folk must be very sad.

That would be the 6:33 from Redhill - Yes lots of complaints, but there are fuller trains. 07:40 to LBG and 07:54 to VIC leave passengers behind and don't bother going to CLJ to get back in the evening, Victoria passengers can't get on the Redhill trains let alone from Clapham or even East Croydon. The trains don't even empty along the route to Redhill

 

[67018]

The next (GTR) franchise does include alliancing, it would be from 2016, so after the existing Southern TOC is merged into GTR.

I'm not convinced it has changed much on SWT though. There are still two separate workforces below board level. They just seem to put out joint press releases where there used to be two...

There was an article on this in Modern Railways a couple of months ago. The attitude seems to be 'let's concentrate on sorting out the problems together and forget the penalty payments'. The idea being that, if they can successfuly do this, both sides end up paying less out overall.

I would hope that Southern and NR are taking something like this approach anyway in the current circumstances.

 

[FOH]

Some good news from the world of politics - Chuka Umunna, MP for Streatham:

Southern Rail, which services my constituency, has been delivering a shabby and increasingly poor service – they are constantly late. I have asked the Transport Secretary to investigate whether they are breaching the terms of their franchise and, if so, to act and impose penalties

http://www.chuka.org.uk/2015/01/chuka-umunna-demands-the-transport-secretary-acts-against-%e2%80%98constantly-late%e2%80%99-southern-rail-and-calls-for-tfl-to-take-control-of-london%e2%80%99s-rail/

 

[swt_passenger]

More timetable changes from next Monday:

Changes to London Bridge services

Date: effective from Monday 26 January 2015

The new track layout on the approach to the station has meant that so far, it has been a challenge to deliver the new timetable for which Southern and Network Rail apologise. We reviewed this and from 7 January a small number of London Bridge to West Croydon services in the evening peak were removed. Additional changes were made w/c Monday 19 January to help us deliver an improved service. Although there has been some improvement to performance we are making further changes from Monday 26 January to services into and out of London Bridge to provide a more reliable service for all our passengers.
http://www.southernrailway.com/sout...don-bridge-services-from-monday-26th-january/

 

[Chrisgr31]

More timetable changes from next Monday:

We were looking at those changes this morning, and they seem to have changed them further during the day unless we couldn't read as the changes this morning didnt seem to include alterations at Oxted.

At the beginning of this year the 7.20 from Crowborough was scheduled to get in to London Bridge at 7.24. At some point since then it has been rescheduled and now gets in at 7.28. It now leaves an extra 2 minutes early so it has now added 6 minutes to the journey time or nearly 10%.

In addition it is regularly late at East Croydon but invariably thats due to it being held up by whatever is in front. This morning being a classic example when we were on time at Hurst Green, 11 minutes late at East Croydon and 2 minutes late at London Bridge.

The reality is the only time it is delayed is either because the down trains are late so its held entering the single line sections, or because its short formed in which case it takes longer to load as people look for a space. Its been short a lot this year! I strongly suspect these latest changes will have no impact on our arrival time at London Bridge.

However its all good as we can drive to the BML and catch a train from there until 22nd February. No idea why we might want to do that as we'll have to pay to park in car parks that are already full, or at Gatwick exceptionally expensive, and the time on the train will be spent in the car instead.

 

[sarahj]

We were looking at those changes this morning, and they seem to have changed them further during the day unless we couldn't read as the changes this morning didnt seem to include alterations at Oxted.

At the beginning of this year the 7.20 from Crowborough was scheduled to get in to London Bridge at 7.24. At some point since then it has been rescheduled and now gets in at 7.28. It now leaves an extra 2 minutes early so it has now added 6 minutes to the journey time or nearly 10%.

In addition it is regularly late at East Croydon but invariably thats due to it being held up by whatever is in front. This morning being a classic example when we were on time at Hurst Green, 11 minutes late at East Croydon and 2 minutes late at London Bridge.

The reality is the only time it is delayed is either because the down trains are late so its held entering the single line sections, or because its short formed in which case it takes longer to load as people look for a space. Its been short a lot this year! I strongly suspect these latest changes will have no impact on our arrival time at London Bridge.

However its all good as we can drive to the BML and catch a train from there until 22nd February. No idea why we might want to do that as we'll have to pay to park in car parks that are already full, or at Gatwick exceptionally expensive, and the time on the train will be spent in the car instead.

That is some fast train, 4 mins from Crowbrough to London Bridge.

 

[tds42]

It seems that with the latest changes due to be applied on Monday that the Caterham and Tats Corner branches are running the leaf fall timetable (for both Victoria and LBG trains) in the mornings. This adds a few minutes to departure times on all stations from the end of the branches to Purley, but none for stations after. I can't quite see how arriving earlier at Purley to then depart at the same time as before helps?

 

[hwl]

It seems that with the latest changes due to be applied on Monday that the Caterham and Tats Corner branches are running the leaf fall timetable (for both Victoria and LBG trains) in the mornings. This adds a few minutes to departure times on all stations from the end of the branches to Purley, but none for stations after. I can't quite see how arriving earlier at Purley to then depart at the same time as before helps?

Better chance of guaranteeing arrival at Purley at the desired time?

 

[tsr]

Better chance of guaranteeing arrival at Purley at the desired time?

I should imagine that is very much the reason, though I haven't heard specifically about it for that service. Right time at Purley = hopefully lower chance of congestion at South Croydon (and into East Croydon) = lower chance of congestion at London Bridge. Etc.

 

[Taunton]

Some good news from the world of politics - Chuka Umunna, MP for Streatham:


http://www.chuka.org.uk/2015/01/chuka-umunna-demands-the-transport-secretary-acts-against-%e2%80%98constantly-late%e2%80%99-southern-rail-and-calls-for-tfl-to-take-control-of-london%e2%80%99s-rail/

Good for the MP for Streatham. The London Bridge shambles does need to come to the attention of the government.

Unfortunately when Mayor Boris Johnson came to discuss it he was sidestepped by tales of what a wonderful and vast job it all is

Mr Johnson met with the Network Rail executives and Department for Transport representatives on Thursday afternoon.

Following the meeting he said: "This is a vast project....It involves the total rebuilding of the oldest commuter railway station in the world.

"There will inevitably be disruption from these huge improvements, but they have reassured us that they are straining every muscle to keep that disruption to an absolute minimum."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-30722186

Sorry, Mr Mayor, but we employ you to oversee London's transport for the benefit of those who live, work and visit here. It's not your role to just be palmed off with relaying stories about how it's a big job and how everyone's trying very hard, sounding like you are just regurgitating your DfT briefing - big railway engineering jobs on existing routes have plenty of background, both here and overseas, for a significant proportion of the civil engineering and railway operating professions it's what they do for a living. I really can't remember one that's been cocked up as badly as this one, leading to things like all your constituents who live down the West Croydon local stations line just being dumped, with a "your trains ... we can't handle them ... cancelled ... find another way on trains which are already so full you can't get on them ... tough" approach. Those are your constituents who have been dumped, Boris.

 

[67018]

Sorry, Mr Mayor, but we employ you to oversee London's transport ...

Do we employ the Mayor to oversee National Rail? My understanding is that he has no formal control over the NR network. Maybe he should have, but if that's the case he might be reluctant to highlight the fact that he can do sod all about London Bridge.

As for the MP for Streatham, he's an opposition MP who might run for mayor so his statements are all about getting cheap publicity. Although at least he has a concrete proposal for improving things, even if a 'TfL takeover' would provoke howls of protest from commuters outside the M25.

 

[Taunton]

Do we employ the Mayor to oversee National Rail?

Yes we do. All the Travelcard etc revenue is collected by TfL and then divided out among the train operators, along with various other revenue sources. TfL are probably Southern's No 1 single source of revenue, they likely get more from them than from the DfT. And if a public body is the No 1 source of funding, it's going to involve accountability, however much the DfT may be operationally accountable.

 

[yorkie]

Do we employ the Mayor to oversee National Rail? Yes we do.

Oh no we don't

http://www.london.gov.uk/priorities...l-vision-investing-in-rail-services-in-london

Transport for London (TfL) oversees almost all of the capital’s public transport network, but not the city’s railways. They are the responsibility of central government.

 

[Busaholic]

As for the MP for Streatham, he's an opposition MP who might run for mayor so his statements are all about getting cheap publicity. Although at least he has a concrete proposal for improving things, even if a 'TfL takeover' would provoke howls of protest from commuters outside the M25.

Anyone would be a better opposition mayoral candidate than his neighbouring MP Tessa Jowell, responsible as a minister for 'forgetting' to add VAT to the Olympic bid costs, for making town centres a no-go area at 4 o'clock in the morning at weekends and the Accident Depts at hospital full of drunken idiots and, as an individual, never querying with her husband, David Mills, where he 'found' £350,000 to pay off a legal charge after working for Berlusconi.

 

[bicbasher]

Chuka Umunna is a Southern commuter and has been tweeting various issues regarding the service he uses from Victoria.

 

[swt_passenger]

Good for the MP for Streatham. The London Bridge shambles does need to come to the attention of the government.

Does anyone seriously believe that the DfT are not already fully aware of what's been happening?

The idea that they'll only know about it thanks to some MP letting them know is laughable, and as for it being treated as some sort of franchise breach...

 

[Bald Rick]

I really can't remember one that's been cocked up as badly as this one,

Really. Remember a bit harder.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It seems that with the latest changes due to be applied on Monday that the Caterham and Tats Corner branches are running the leaf fall timetable (for both Victoria and LBG trains) in the mornings. This adds a few minutes to departure times on all stations from the end of the branches to Purley, but none for stations after. I can't quite see how arriving earlier at Purley to then depart at the same time as before helps?

The East Grinstead and Uckfield trains seem to be moved slightly earlier at Oxted as well, although hopefully the East Grindstead ones will be earlier at Sanderstead. Certainly the 7.08 from Uckfield always queues into East Croydon. The added 4 or 5 minutes between East Croydon and London Bridge has helped with reliability. Been on time for the last 2 days!

 

[FOH]

Really. Remember a bit harder.

What are you thinking of? For me, we're nearly into month 6 of continuous disruption. (last night was brilliantly rubbish too)

 

[Chrisgr31]

Chuka Umunna is a Southern commuter and has been tweeting various issues regarding the service he uses from Victoria.

Strange that with an election coming up!

The reality is that if Southern and Network Rail are to be criticised it is for being too ambitious. They could have cut a lot more trains out of the service, even more passengers would be unhappy, but they would have been a lot more likely to run the service on time. However there would have been a storm of protest from the media and passengers that they hadn't been ambitious enough.

However they tried to maximise the service from day one and it just didnt work for a number of reasons. It hasn't been helped by the various signal and point failures, and by the failure of the Class 171 units. There has been a storm of complaint from the media and passengers.

In all reality the only think they could have done differently was having a phased return of the services, but I am not sure how that would have worked and of course would have lead to a wave of protest from the media and passengers who werent in the first phase.

It does appear to be to represent Southern at their worst, not because they run a poor service, but because they are just unable to take any sensible action to resolve the issues that passengers are facing. As soon as anything goes wrong they give the impression of running round like headless chickens.

The classic example being on the Uckfield Line when of Tuesday they announced due to the shortage of units passengers could use their season tickets on the Brighton Main Line. All good except it was the same day that sufficient units returned to use to run the service. As a result it has been met with almost universal derision, well certainly from Crowboroughs passengers, for whom the BML really is not an alternative. What they should have done is once it was clear several units were going to be out for days was take decisions as to which services would run, with what carriages, and give alternative routes and said it would apply for a fortnight or week and increased it. Would have been better PR.

 

[Taunton]

It certainly does strain understanding that following a reduction of the service to meet the reduced infrastructure capacity, there has then been a shortage of units, a whole string of reports of short formations.

It's also not really apparent why there's been such congestion at East Croydon, well away from the works.

Of course I believe that someone at the DfT will have heard of the issues, but the real issue is whether they have actually done anything to ASSIST overcome the situation. All I see from them is endless statements describing how big the project is and how much money is being spent on this and all sorts of other locations, miles away from the problem, briefings and press releases that come over as prepared by someone who actually doesn't know one end of a train from the other.

Regarding the Mayor, all the Travelcard and Oyster revenue that accrues to Southern comes from the mayoral/TfL pocket. Where the Mayor signs the big cheque to them every month for what their constituents have paid over, then they can have a big say. The same is true of any big supplier of services who gets TfL money.

 

[otomous]

East Croydon already had more train movements than the built layout was ever expected to handle. The fact that the works are at London Bridge has an obvious effect. A train originating there that presents late may lose its slot to a train from elsewhere and this may then hold up another train etc etc. Before you know it you've got a queue of trains.