London Midland problems

[IanPooleTrains]

Your assumptions are hardly accurate. First you've assumed nobody is travelling after half 6 (all the Chase Line is covered by the centro evening deal). Secondly, this completely discounts season ticket holders.

No, I was talking rhetoricially

This is a fact. In LM's defence it would be nearly impossible to do so.

And this is no excuse. There is no excuse for doing a job half assed, you either do the job or you don't do the job, there is no inbetween.

A link to the job description of LM staff would be a great way to corroborate your accusation.

If you would kindly read an earlier post, you will see that i have enquoted the role of a guard

That happening proves only that the 2017 ex-BHM was early. It does not prove that trains consistently leave early.

This proves that this happens

 

[martinsh]

If you don't like LM then the easy answer is don't use them!

How else do you expect me to to travel between Crewe and Stafford 2 / 3 times per week ?! :mad:

By bus ?(takes 2 hours - longer if connection missed in Newcastle) - I've had to do that in the past

EMT Crewe to Stoke, XC from Stoke to Stafford ? I've had to do that in the past

My experience of this journey fro the past 4 years is that tickets are checked approx 50% of time. Not brilliant, but better than Virgin, where (until recently) I hadn't had my ticket checked for over a year !

My lesser experience of the southern end of operations is that ticket checking is much less rigorous there. Earlier this year I travelled Leighton Buzzard - Northampton - Birmingham (exit station) - Crewe without having my ticket checked once, either on or off the train. [I wondered why I bothered to buy one ?! ]

I think my main complaint about London Midland is their lack of expertise at Disaster Recovery. Normally the service is good, but it only takes the lsightest thing to go wrong and they frnakly don't have a clue. Kneejerk reaction for any problem between Birmingham and Liverpool is to cancel half the services ! Similarly any lateness of a Euston - Crewe is met by sending it straight from Stafford - Crewe, avoiding Stone.

 

[Minilad]

Ian. Please do yourself a favour and give it up. You are really not helping yourself here

 

[martinsh]

Ian. Please do yourself a favour and give it up. You are really not helping yourself here

Well there's at least one person here that agrees with him !!

 

[IanPooleTrains]

How else do you expect me to to travel between Crewe and Stafford 2 / 3 times per week ?! :mad:

By bus ?(takes 2 hours - longer if connection missed in Newcastle) - I've had to do that in the past

EMT Crewe to Stoke, XC from Stoke to Stafford ? I've had to do that in the past

My experience of this journey fro the past 4 years is that tickets are checked approx 50% of time. Not brilliant, but better than Virgin, where (until recently) I hadn't had my ticket checked for over a year !

My lesser experience of the southern end of operations is that ticket checking is much less rigorous there. Earlier this year I travelled Leighton Buzzard - Northampton - Birmingham (exit station) - Crewe without having my ticket checked once, either on or off the train. [I wondered why I bothered to buy one ?! ]

I think my main complaint about London Midland is their lack of expertise at Disaster Recovery. Normally the service is good, but it only takes the lsightest thing to go wrong and they frnakly don't have a clue. Kneejerk reaction for any problem between Birmingham and Liverpool is to cancel half the services ! Similarly any lateness of a Euston - Crewe is met by sending it straight from Stafford - Crewe, avoiding Stone.

Exactly martinsh

People say if I don't like them don't use them but from Brereton, where I live, to Birmingham from Rugeley Town, my nearest local station takes, on average, 55 minutes by train.

If I suddenly stop using them and then go to use the bus, it is half an hour to either Lichfield or Cannock and then a further hour on top of that and it costs more!

I could be in Stafford using LM in....twenty minutes, it's a freaking hour by bus and, once again, more expensive!

 

[SS4]

No, I was talking rhetoricially

You attempted to use maths to justify your point. I pointed out that your basis was not the most accurate model to you. Rhetorically or otherwise

And this is no excuse. There is no excuse for doing a job half assed, you either do the job or you don't do the job, there is no inbetween.

half-assed according to which definition

If you would kindly read an earlier post, you will see that i have enquoted the role of a guard

Indeed you did. The definition that yorkie debunked in post 27. Anyone can quote anything, doesn't make it true.
Enquoted isn't a word by the way. Quoted works fine.

This proves that this happens

No it doesn't. It proves only that service was late. Does the fact that 2*2=4 prove that 2n is always even (for integer n)? How do we know the 2017 isn't an anomaly? If my bus gets me home in 25 minutes at the dead of night does that mean it will take 25minutes in rush hour?


What I am trying to say is that your views are unrepresentative of the LM network.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

What I am trying to say is that your views are unrepresentative of the LM network.

My views are representative of the LM network

Do I go and just say it for the fun of it at.....FCC? Do I go and just say it for the fun of it at....East Coast? Do I go and just say it for the fun of it at.....Grand Central?

No! And why not? Because I don't use them every single day of the week so I couldn't possibly comment on what they do

I use LM practically every single day of the week as do my brothers and the result is the same; a failure of a TOC's staff to carry out it's job and a company that is being made a debacle by it's own staff making the rules up as they go along

 

[NSE]

Re-reading Martinsh point, he has provided an alternate route between Stafford-Crewe. You can also go Virgin on a couple of peak trains, XC to Man Picc then Northern, Its not impossible.

I dislike FCC round the Wimbledon loop, and so yes I do wait for the peak time Southern services if I need to go to South Merton. I strongly suspect you don't hate LM that much.

 

[SS4]

My views are representative of the LM network

All of it? I get the impression you use the Chase Line a lot rather than their wider network of suburban. I also get the impression that the Chase Line is not a priority for LM.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

All of it? I get the impression you use the Chase Line a lot rather than their wider network of suburban. I also get the impression that the Chase Line is not a priority for LM.

I do use The Chase Line a lot but I use other routes just as much, I never said that it was a priority

 

[Simon Poole]

Too Be Honestmm times were compired when coming back froom the 1017 and honestly they're right they left a minute early apart from Landywood which the train left 2 minutes early

 

[southerner2174]

I dont know anything about the areas or lines that you are complaining about a lack of a full ticket check between each individual station but I have to ask if you know how long it takes to completely check 1 carriage let alone 4 carriages, whilst having to suspend revenue duties to carry out safety critical dispatch duties and then having to go back to where you left off.
Trust me it takes a lot longer than what your bargain for, for instance you have to wait numerous times for people to get hold of their bag, wallet, suitcase, purse and rummage through it to find what they are looking for, or to pretend they are looking for it (ticket dance), or wait for them to finish their phone conversation etc....

Unless you have done it yourself then you have no idea how long it can take, I used to try and do it within a few minutes but you could double it per carriage often and quadruple it sometimes, so what should take a good 10 minutes per train could quite turn out to take 40 minutes and thats just in 1 direction.

If you think you can do any better then I suggest you put in for the next vacancy that arises otherwise in your area, as Im sure you would be welcome with open arms.

 

[martinsh]

Re-reading Martinsh point, he has provided an alternate route between Stafford-Crewe. You can also go Virgin on a couple of peak trains, XC to Man Picc then Northern, Its not impossible.

I think you misunerstood my point. My point was that, Crewe - Stafford by LM is 20 mins, the alternatives I gave take between 1 hour ans 3 hours. And I have had to do that in the past (admittedly only very occasionally) because of the poor quality of service provided by LM !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I dont know anything about the areas or lines that you are complaining about a lack of a full ticket check between each individual station

I don't think that's what the OP was complaining about. More a lack of any ticket checking at all over a whole journey ?

 

[NSE]

I think you misunerstood my point. My point was that, Crewe - Stafford by LM is 20 mins, the alternatives I gave take between 1 hour ans 3 hours. And I have had to do that in the past (admittedly only very occasionally) because of the poor quality of service provided by LM !

No I understand you saying there is no easy way to avoid LM, but my point is if he hates them that much, well there are some alternatives.

 

[Crossover]

FACT: They do not check tickets all the time

As SS4 has said, that is correct and true and probably is across the board of TOC's I would think - there are many times where other things will take priority and times where the guard cannot physically get through the train.

However, this seems a very different thing to what you were saying earlier of:

I can tell you for a fact that guards do not check tickets from London Euston to Northampton, on any part of the Snow Hill lines, on any part of The Chase Line out of Birmingham nor the Birmingham - Liverpool line

The top most fact can't easily be disputed and is unlikely to get peoples backs up...the "fact" just above will as there is no basis and is just an unfounded sweeping statement

I wonder if sometimes, potentially tickets aren't checked on certain routes, or parts of, as the stations are barriered so the likelyhood of not having a ticket is somewhat reduced...but this is just an observation from what has happened on some routes which I have travelled on

 

[the sniper]

I am not saying don't debate it and I have certainly not made sweeping statements based on minimal evidence, I have brought you fact!

FACT: They do not check tickets all the time

Well it's certainly true that they don't check tickets all the time, mainly because it isn't physically possible on many suburban routes. Also, on your own line Ian, the guard can't get through the majority of the train much of the time because they're stuck in the rear unit. Aren't many Rugeley trains formed of a 153 and 170?

FACT: They make up measly and pathetic excuses to cover up real issues

That's more opinion than fact.

FACT: Their staff do not have great customer service skills and do not do their jobs, do not carry out that job to the fullest and do leave early from stations

You've got to be joking if you don't think that is a sweeping statement...

Then OxtedL, buddy, ask yourself who is the fool then!

Fresh start, same old..............

You're unnecessarily getting short with people again. Is this really a fresh start?

And this is no excuse. There is no excuse for doing a job half assed, you either do the job or you don't do the job, there is no inbetween.

I'm afraid you are wrong.

If you would kindly read an earlier post, you will see that i have enquoted the role of a guard

As Yorkie pointed out, it wasn't a very good source and actually underplayed the most important aspect of their job, which is safety.

Earlier this year I travelled Leighton Buzzard - Northampton - Birmingham (exit station) - Crewe without having my ticket checked once, either on or off the train. [I wondered why I bothered to buy one ?! ]

Because you didn't want to break the law?

 

[NSE]

Exactly, I've lost count of the number of journeys I've made without a ticket check. But, you buy one as it's the law.

 

[313103]

As for the guards in general, the job of a guard is defined as the following:



I can tell you for a fact that guards do not check tickets from London Euston to Northampton, on any part of the Snow Hill lines, on any part of The Chase Line out of Birmingham nor the Birmingham - Liverpool line

The only routes that I have seen checks take place is The Abbey Line and the Cross City Line

Whenever you ask them questions, they just seemed to look like the proverbial deer caught in the headlights and generally do not have a clue. You ask anyone from Virgin/Cross Country or even Arriva, they seem to have a 'logical' answer but LM staff just seem to not have a single clue as to what is going on

Quite a interesting quote you have there Mr Poole, where did you lift this from? I am sure that London Midland and certainly Silverlink would not write a Guards role in this manner (i know that for fact having helped do the Guards conditions of service for Silverlink in 1997).

Today i must of been asked hundreds of questions about how to get here there and everywhere because London Overground services were suspended in the Willesden area, yet towards the end of a 6hr 30 minute period without a drink, without a meal and not being able to use a toliet and being on a unit. Yet i must of looked liked that proverbial deer caught in the headlights when i couldnt answer one lady's question with clarity. I bet she must of thought what a useless member of staff this is!

With regard the LM Guards not knowing whats going on, quite often when the service goes tits up the passengers know more then the Guard or the Driver and they will often ask the Guard is this train going to such and such and when you say yes, they then tell you that is not what the Pa said and what the CIS says. Often TOCs controls change plans and dont pass on information to the people on the ground. Yet we look like idiots we dont know how to do their jobs when it goes wrong. When it does go wrong i am expected to know the reason why, how long, know every bus route, know every tube line, know every other tocs services, know every other alternative route. That is just some of the things. I wish i had a magic wand that would get them there.

 

[yorkie]

Quite a interesting quote you have there Mr Poole, where did you lift this from?

Agreed.

The source appears to be a job search site:-

http://www.redgoldfish.co.uk/job-roles/210-rail-train-guard-job-role.aspx

As for the definition of the main jobs of a guard, that appears to be taken from a job website. I would disagree with many claims on that website, and it is certainly not authoritative. The main aspects of a guards job will always be safety. Some guards are non-commercial and would never check or sell tickets, although I accept that does not apply in these cases, it does demonstrate that the site isn't particularly reliable. Some of the claims on that site are slightly inaccurate, some are misleading, and some are downright completely wrong.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Then the abuse from staff; do you think it is acceptable that a member of staff should choose to ridicule the way you look, ridicule your choice in lifestyle and make comments that you might find offensive? Would you turn around and say to someone that they are sad, they are pathetic or just stand by idolly and shake your head because they have taken a photograph of the train?

Okay then, short brown hair, black bodywarmer, blue fleece, blue shirt and a pair of black trousers with a day-glo yellow hat (yes fans of the day-glo yellow hat and you know who you are just wet themselves), a pair of gloves, black, blue trainers

Ian, while I’m genuinely sorry to read that you've been ridiculed for your love of railways you haven't exactly helped yourself. Wearing a day-glow yellow hat in public is inevitably going to attract mockery no matter where you are. And if you've been ranting and raving at staff who are clearly having a bad day and are merely doing their job it’s hardly surprising that they enjoyed a chance to laugh at your expense.

 

[richw]

Always get weird and wonderful customers that discreetly laugh at, not really acceptable to laugh in their face as such. Unless paranoia is an issue and the staff was laughing at something else, but you know your dressed in a comical.manner so think they are laughing at you.

Anyway Ian, I think we can safely and fortunately conclude your experiences are the minority, from the other experiences in this thread

And regarding a guards job, safety being the priority, I think this is the case in 99.9% of jobs in the uk, not just railway

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[ralphchadkirk]

As I see it, the role of the guard is to operate his/her train in accordance with the rule book and TOC policy with the emphasis on safety. Everything comes secondary to running the train safely.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Aren't many Rugeley trains formed of a 153 and 170?

When this happens, they have two guards, one for the Turbo and on for the Sprinter but even then, ticket checks are done sporadically

And whilst I agree that safety should come first, it still does not excuse them for not doing the other aspects of their job.

And if safety is their top priority and they are responsible for their safety as well as the safety of others on the train, if this is what yorkie and RPC are pointing out, why do they allow people to just cram onto trains and make it as packed as they possibly can do? And that is not just London Midland, that is a general comment to ALL TOCs

Surely, that is a health and safety issue is it not?

 

[tbtc]

When this happens, they have two guards, one for the Turbo and on for the Sprinter but even then, ticket checks are done sporadically

And whilst I agree that safety should come first, it still does not excuse them for not doing the other aspects of their job.

And if safety is their top priority and they are responsible for their safety as well as the safety of others on the train, if this is what yorkie and RPC are pointing out, why do they allow people to just cram onto trains and make it as packed as they possibly can do? And that is not just London Midland, that is a general comment to ALL TOCs

Surely, that is a health and safety issue is it not?

A bit of advice for you - when you are in a hole, stop digging

 

[IanPooleTrains]

A bit of advice for you - when you are in a hole, stop digging

I'm not digging any hole, I am merely asking a simple point

 

[Mike395]

IPT you seem to laying out your (in my view unrealistic) utopian idea of how railways should run - however I haven't heard any solutions from yourself yet (for example, if you think we need more than one guard on each train so every single ticket on every single train is checked, then how are you going to fund this?) - which would be FAR more productive than just moaning in the main about things which are completely unrealistic, again in my view, to change!

 

[table38]

Just a couple of irrelevent observations from when I did a "Great Escape" day the other week...

First at Stourbridge Junction, the lady on the 139 was more than happy to talk about the PPM and tell tales of the hundreds of people who come specifically to see it; apparently not just spotters enthusiasts but also engineering students. She was cheerful and friendly; despite (I would imagine) having to more or less say the same thing every 10 minutes!

Second, the guard on a service from Stratford on Avon played a blinder. There were two lads sat behind me who were clearly re-using discarded tickets. One had an outbound part of a return ticket, but not the return part which he insisted he'd thrown away. It was clear from the ticket that it had been bought on the train around 9am that day; it was around 5pm by now. The other had a "biroed" ticket, and when asked where he'd bought it, he complained of suffering from "short term memory loss".

The guard said he would call BTP and put them off the train at the next stop. When we arrived at [dunno, somewhere in the middle of nowhere] he opened the doors and (what I consider to be the master stroke) tipped the driver to turn the engines off; we all sat there in silence for about a minute while the driver stood on the platform calling the BTP.

When the two lads in question went out onto the platform to remonstrate (and maybe also to escape wrath of the other passengers who their actions were delaying), he reached in and closed the doors so they couldn't get back on! They gave up and we were on our way a few minutes later.

I can't think of any train where I didn't get my ticket checked, often by the same guard (as on a run out to Hereford) who remarked "oh it's you again"

 

[Minilad]

When this happens, they have two guards, one for the Turbo and on for the Sprinter but even then, ticket checks are done sporadically

And whilst I agree that safety should come first, it still does not excuse them for not doing the other aspects of their job.

And if safety is their top priority and they are responsible for their safety as well as the safety of others on the train, if this is what yorkie and RPC are pointing out, why do they allow people to just cram onto trains and make it as packed as they possibly can do? And that is not just London Midland, that is a general comment to ALL TOCs

Surely, that is a health and safety issue is it not?

OK so how can we solve this. Easy all trains are reservation only. And that includes all commuter services. So you have to book on every train you want to go on. And if its full then tough. If you miss your booked train tough. And can you imagine the fun and games when you have disruption such as the Wolverhampton episode. Spot the flaw in this plan anywhere ?

 

[IanPooleTrains]

OK so how can we solve this. Easy all trains are reservation only. And that includes all commuter services. So you have to book on every train you want to go on. And if its full then tough. If you miss your booked train tough. And can you imagine the fun and games when you have disruption such as the Wolverhampton episode. Spot the flaw in this plan anywhere ?

How does that even come close to resolving it?

And I didn't come on here to even come up with a resolution!

 

[tbtc]

How does that even come close to resolving it?

And I didn't come on here to even come up with a resolution!

This is the problem.

You appear to be complaining for the sake of complaining, not trying to come up with realistic "solutions", not willing to listen to the experience of other people (including the knowledgeable staff on this thread).

I'm really not sure why you started this thread tbh.