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London Midland strike vote over proposed imposition of security contractors on trains

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absolutelymilk

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38688969

Train conductors on London Midland's service have announced they will take a vote over strike action.
The rail union RMT said it was balloting its 523 members over the proposed imposition of security contractors on trains.

So RMT are striking because they are getting added security? Or do they think these security guards will replace guards eventually?
 
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Carntyne

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If there's staff being put on train, they should be TOC employees, not contractors.
 

a_c_skinner

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I've some sympathy for that view, but this isn't going to be a dispute that will reflect well on the union. I wonder if the RMT prefers TOC employees to increase its membership and income?
 

Dai Corner

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I've some sympathy for that view, but this isn't going to be a dispute that will reflect well on the union. I wonder if the RMT prefers TOC employees to increase its membership and income?

Quite possibly, though what's stopping them offering membership to the security staff?
 

Clip

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Quite possibly, though what's stopping them offering membership to the security staff?

Nothing but they will not be able to do anything for them as the security company doesnt have to recognise the union nor its members.
 

GB

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I wonder if the RMT prefers TOC employees to increase its membership and income?

Even if that were the case its irrelevant really. Its the TOC employees that choose to strike or not, not the union officials.
 

AlterEgo

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If this goes ahead I cannot see how the RMT can win popular opinion. This is an almost impossible story to put a palatable spin on, from their perspective.
 

FordFocus

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I would await to see the results of the ballot to see the true feelings of LM staff.
 

Clip

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Our members are fearful that even minor issues will escalate out of control particularly when these security contractors don’t have the appropriate training, skills or knowledge for working within a focused customer service environment like our members do.”

Thats a bold claim to make when there are lots of security companys who do just that at very large events up and down the country every week.

Given the issues LM have at the weekend as reported on these pages I am surprised that they dont want to go along with this to protect their staff members
 

Clip

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I would await to see the results of the ballot to see the true feelings of LM staff.

The RMT should already knwo the feelings of its members at LM or their reps are not doing a very good job - im sure theyre doing this because they already know.
 

KTHV

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I've some sympathy for that view, but this isn't going to be a dispute that will reflect well on the union. I wonder if the RMT prefers TOC employees to increase its membership and income?







I've noticed (especially in Worcester on Friday and Saturday nights - and when there's rail replacement transport scheduled due to works - as with Droitwich/Bromsgrove in December) that they have security staff (contractors in the hi-viz) stationed on platforms to monitor passengers in and around the PTI and to "keep the peace".
 
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SJN

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These 'security staff' do not have any SIA licence and have no extra power than the existing conductors to remove unruly passengers.
 

LowLevel

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I can see their point. They're useless for the most part and at least don't improve things and at worst make them worse.

My most recent Saturday night train I had two on, one regular and one agency. I had two groups threaten to start a fight and they just hid, I, the guard who is meant to avoid conflict ended up sorting the problem out. The time before I had a drunk trying to kick the drivers cab door down. Guess who went and dragged them out.

Regular staff who get to know the job are one thing, when they send agency idiots when you're locked into a steel tube it's intolerable.
 

Carlisle

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Even if that were the case its irrelevant really. Its the TOC employees that choose to strike or not, not the union officials.
This has all the hallmarks of a dispute that'll probably be settled before any strike action takes place
 

KTHV

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Hopefully I'll bump into a friend who is a Guard on LM in the next few days to see what his thoughts are


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

HLE

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With what's going on down south, it may be wise for guards not to be seen to be kicking up too much of a fuss over something like this - I can't see passengers being particularly sympathetic.

Yes it's a valid cause.....but don't give the DFT any cause to sniff around here when they next look at where to implement DOO and save a few quid in the process.
 

Andrew1395

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on the Euston Trings you do occasionally see the guard go through the train, but it is extremely rare. Bearing in mind LM virtually destaff stations after 19.30. The fact that BTP is in a practical sense a myth for passengers outside of Euston. The fact that extra eyes out and about is the centre stone of the nations anti terrorism strategy on transport - (see it, say it, sort it), I would have thought having extra staff (even contractors like the turnaround cleaners) would be welcomed by all.
 

MK Tom

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Funny how the Southern strikes are supposedly all about security and safety and now strikes are being planned on LM over a measure to improve security and safety.

The effectiveness of this idea is really irrelevant - that'll become clear in time and if it isn't effective LM won't continue it.

I'm convinced the RMT's core purpose is to cause as much disruption and controversy as possible in an ideologically driven mission to undermine the privatised railway. But that is of course just my opinion.
 

Urban Gateline

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on the Euston Trings you do occasionally see the guard go through the train, but it is extremely rare. Bearing in mind LM virtually destaff stations after 19.30. The fact that BTP is in a practical sense a myth for passengers outside of Euston. The fact that extra eyes out and about is the centre stone of the nations anti terrorism strategy on transport - (see it, say it, sort it), I would have thought having extra staff (even contractors like the turnaround cleaners) would be welcomed by all.

The turnaround cleaners at Euston are not contractors, they are directly employed by LM!

Conductors could use the agency security staff to their advantage to collect more revenue, going through the train with some backup especially late at night makes sense, not only for revenue but as a visible presence to the passengers!
 

jon0844

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I don't see a real issue if staff aren't 'proper' security staff. You surely don't want bouncers who will start chucking people off trains, rather visual deterrents and some back up.

People who can diffuse a situation, and of course call for assistance or act as witnesses.

Obviously running and hiding isn't good though.
 

the sniper

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If this goes ahead I cannot see how the RMT can win popular opinion. This is an almost impossible story to put a palatable spin on, from their perspective.

No doubt. This hasn't escaped anybody's notice and many would speculate that this isn't accidental.

This has all the hallmarks of a dispute that'll probably be settled before any strike action takes place

Probably/hopefully. There has been absolutely no discernible benefit from having these 'security guards'. If LM stick to their guns, it'll only support the point of view 'on the Street' that this measure has purely been brought in to stick it to or play the RMT.

I'm convinced the RMT's core purpose is to cause as much disruption and controversy as possible in an ideologically driven mission to undermine the privatised railway. But that is of course just my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion, but it might be worth considering why LM/Govia, after 9 years of not doing so, with only 9 months remaining of their franchise, have suddenly decided to throw money at this initiative that delivers little real world benefit, yet just so happens to challenge the RMT's LM Company Council stance on agency/casualised workers?

Conductors could use the agency security staff to their advantage to collect more revenue, going through the train with some backup especially late at night makes sense, not only for revenue but as a visible presence to the passengers!

How do you 'use' somebody who has less experience than you, less powers than you, less authority than you, sometimes less physical presence than you, less incentive to be involved than you, next to no training and no understanding of how they can help you, other than promising to step in if you're getting beaten up?

When you're dealing with difficult situations/people, particularly in an enclosed environment like a train, you need to have absolute faith in people working with you so you can predict what they're going to do and thus you can support each other. By bringing two random people in to 'support' you, you just open the window to making any given situation even more unpredictable. There's the potential for them to be more of a liability than a help in volatile situations, just two more people to fall under your duty of care...

I don't see a real issue if staff aren't 'proper' security staff. You surely don't want bouncers who will start chucking people off trains, rather visual deterrents and some back up.

They'd be more welcome if that were the case, as they'd be able to help then! Realistically byelaw enforcement bouncers are more what some services need, though they'd have to work a bit later than the current security if they're to cover most of those trains...
 

FordFocus

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My previous experience with railway security staff isn't overly enthusiastic. There was a team of staff employed mainly at weekends to patrol trains. Highly visible, SIA trained and equipped with CCTV. All the hallmarks for helping guards and keeping the peace. Instead they boarded a train early into their shift and vanished to a rural part of the network until they came back contra-drunk flow back to their home base where they booked off. This wasn't confined to one or two members of staff but mostly all of them.

My TOC employs security staff at some stations, I once had an issue with a passenger on my DOO train. I had to stop the train out of course at a station because there was too much shouting and scuffles from behind the cab. A security guard was handily stood on the station and said "you don't stop here". Which I said correct but I need to investigate this problem and may need your assistance. To which point he saw said passengers arguing and quietly slipped out of view.

A few companies have employed agency staff under a big PR poster campaign but only on a 12 month contract then the contract doesn't get renewed. National Express East Anglia springs to mind.
 

MrPIC

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My TOC has external security staff on weekend evenings for the last few trains on a problem branch line and as a DOO driver they are very helpful in kicking all the sleeping drunks off at the end of the line. Having said that I have seen them do absolutely nothing except stand with their hands in their vests whilst a group of youths held a trains doors open and pulled a load of pass coms. I asked them if they would do anything and they said they had them on their CCTV.... great.
 

Thedispatcher

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The real issue here is that they don't have any additional powers to remove unruly passengers and yes whilst most of them are SIA registered that is not the capacity they are used in. Also, they have been imposed on conductors without union agreement and the West Midlands Rail Prospectus actually mentions "Driver Controlled Operation" as an option, with conductors essentially becoming On-board Supervisors, like southern. After all, LM is Govia too.

And in response to security at stations, London Midland have had security at Worcester Foregate Street on Fridays and Saturdays for years.
 

Jonfun

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We found this a bit funny at our place, because we're having the opposite problem, we want support but just aren't getting any. The number of physical assaults on catering staff, guards, revenue inspectors and even a driver have skyrocketed in the last 12 months - myself included. BTP support is virtually non existant. If LM don't want the security, feel free to send them here instead!
 

Bletchleyite

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Implementing DOO on the south WCML would be a far bigger piece of work as the Desiros have no cameras[1] and there is no DOO platform equipment either.

[1] With the flat bodysides could they even be fitted or would they be out of gauge?
 

xc170

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Shocker, RMT don't like something so they're planning to disrupt as many peoples journeys as possible.

If they're trained and professional, I really don't see the issue here.
 

Andrew1395

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The turnaround cleaners at Euston are not contractors, they are directly employed by LM!

Really? All the ones I see are wearing contractors tabard, unless in my old age I am getting confused with station cleaners at Euston Square or London Overground evening station staff?
 
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the sniper

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We found this a bit funny at our place, because we're having the opposite problem, we want support but just aren't getting any. The number of physical assaults on catering staff, guards, revenue inspectors and even a driver have skyrocketed in the last 12 months - myself included. BTP support is virtually non existant. If LM don't want the security, feel free to send them here instead!

London Midland Guards want support too. BTP support is virtually non existent away from principle stations. What support are powerless security able to offer? What role do they fulfil? Do you imagine these poorly paid security guards should act as cannon fodder?

If you don't buy into the odd timing and circumstances behind their introduction, aren't fussed about the principle of introducing external contractors to replicate part of an existing (Conductors) role, but are familiar with the implementation and workings of this security, you might describe it as a token gesture that does little to address the real problems passengers and staff face.

Shocker, RMT don't like something so they're planning to disrupt as many peoples journeys as possible.

If they're trained and professional, I really don't see the issue here.

Do you believe they are well trained and professional then?

Really? All the ones I see are wearing contractors tabard, unless in my old age I am getting confused with station cleaners at Euston Square or London Overground evening station staff?

Virgin use contract cleaners at Euston. So do Network Rail. Not sure about London Overground, but they may do too. So there are plenty of contractors about to see!
 
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