London Midland train cancelled ,Virgin charged £65

[ramitamimi]

Good evening,I have been reading the forum for a while ,but know I need an advice whether anything can be done about this situation:

I intended to travel from Liverpool Lime st to Newbury ,and had 3 tickets,(including Y-P railcard discount)

16 04 LIVERPOOL-BIRMINGHAM ADVANCE STD LONDON MIDLAND (£6.95)
18 33 BIRMINGHAM-READING ADVANCE STD CROSS COUNTRY (£15.20)
NEWBURY-LONDON OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN FGW STD (£14.80)

Having arrived at Lime street ,I went to Virgin trains lounge ,as I had a Euston-Liverpool 1st advance ticket from the morning,I looked at the screen ,and saw that 14 04 LM service to BHM was cancelled,and 15 04 delayed untill furher notice,so I then started to be nervios ,as it was very important for me to be back in NBY on time,so I went to Virgin Customer service desk ,and they said they accept LM ticket ,to Stafford,and at Northern ticket office they told me to take a "any logical rote",so I boarded the 15 48 Liverpool-Euston VT, and asked the TM about my ticket issue,to which he replied that he will come and see me shortly....shortly in his understanding is after one and half hours after departure from Liverpool . He said I have to buy a Stafford-Euston ticket,which I kind of expected ,despite the diificult situation ,I assumed I could buy a OFF-PEAK SGL for £37.90 ,but TM sad that I can only but ANYTIME SGL for £65 ,also in his opinion a reasonable route would be to go with VT to Stafford,change to a train to Rugby ,than go to BHM ,which meant that I would miss my XC train.

I might be speaking about complete non sense ,but I am just wondering if anything can be done about this situation?!

Thank you in advance

 

[martinsh]

I would have changed onto the LM Euston slows at Stafford (they were running OK - 16.50) to Tamworth and picked up XC there.

 

[Swirlz]

Good evening,I have been reading the forum for a while ,but know I need an advice whether anything can be done about this situation:

I intended to travel from Liverpool Lime st to Newbury ,and had 3 tickets,(including Y-P railcard discount)

16 04 LIVERPOOL-BIRMINGHAM ADVANCE STD LONDON MIDLAND (£6.95)
18 33 BIRMINGHAM-READING ADVANCE STD CROSS COUNTRY (£15.20)
NEWBURY-LONDON OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN FGW STD (£14.80)

Having arrived at Lime street ,I went to Virgin trains lounge ,as I had a Euston-Liverpool 1st advance ticket from the morning,I looked at the screen ,and saw that 14 04 LM service to BHM was cancelled,and 15 04 delayed untill furher notice,so I then started to be nervios ,as it was very important for me to be back in NBY on time,so I went to Virgin Customer service desk ,and they said they accept LM ticket ,to Stafford,and at Northern ticket office they told me to take a "any logical rote",so I boarded the 15 48 Liverpool-Euston VT, and asked the TM about my ticket issue,to which he replied that he will come and see me shortly....shortly in his understanding is after one and half hours after departure from Liverpool . He said I have to buy a Stafford-Euston ticket,which I kind of expected ,despite the diificult situation ,I assumed I could buy a OFF-PEAK SGL for £37.90 ,but TM sad that I can only but ANYTIME SGL for £65 ,also in his opinion a reasonable route would be to go with VT to Stafford,change to a train to Rugby ,than go to BHM ,which meant that I would miss my XC train.

I might be speaking about complete non sense ,but I am just wondering if anything can be done about this situation?!

Thank you in advance

If Virgin told you they would accept your ticket to Stafford only, why did you stay on the train to London? Virgin accepted your LM ticket to Stafford, and because you then decided to continue travelling, they charged you for another ticket.

You shouldn't have really been allowed to have a railcard discount. The conductor could have actually charged you £98.50.

If you split your tickets, this is one of the downsides as far as I'm concerned, you lose flexibility.

You could claim "Delay Repay" on your London Midland ticket though!

 

[soil]

A few issues here:

* the railways have no obligation to get you to your destination on time
* if they don't get you there on time, you may be able to get a refund, usually related to the cost of your ticket, but no consequential losses are accepted whatsoever
* there is no right at all, while holding a London Midland Advance ticket, to be carried by any other carrier
* Virgin authorised you to travel to Stafford only. The train you boarded called at:

Runcorn 16:03
Stafford 16:35
Euston 17:56

Your booked train from Liverpool was scheduled to call at Stafford at 17:10, and Birmingham at 17:47

Your booked train from Birmingham was not scheduled to depart until 18:33, so you had two hours to make it from Stafford to Birmingham and could have caught the
16:43 (London Midland)
17:03 (XC)
17:10 LM
17:25 XC
17:43 LM

and made it to Birmingham on time for your connection to Reading.

Nothing to complain about really.

 

[bb21]

What exactly did you say to the TM?

 

[martinsh]

Your booked train from Birmingham was not scheduled to depart until 18:33, so you had two hours to make it from Stafford to Birmingham and could have caught the
16:43 (London Midland)
17:03 (XC)
17:10 LM
17:25 XC
17:43 LM

and made it to Birmingham on time for your connection to Reading.

Just to point out that all LM Liverpool - Birmingham services were cancelled, and XC heavily delayed. [ Hence why I suggested travel vcia Tamworth above ]

 

[Rich McLean]

Just to point out that all LM Liverpool - Birmingham services were cancelled, and XC heavily delayed. [ Hence why I suggested travel vcia Tamworth above ]

It was however advertised by London Midland, that passengers should of changed to a Bus at Stafford to Wolves, then use the metro or NXWM buses from wolves to Birmingham, or used the delayed XC services from Stafford to Birmingham.

If you split your tickets, you do indeed run the risk of missing your connection, especially if on advance tickets, and if you do miss you connection, you run the risk of having to pay for a walk up fare, unless otherwise stated that they have lifted restrictions on later services

 

[sheff1]

If Virgin had passed your ticket to Stafford only, it would be wise to discuss with the TM before you reached there what the position would be if you continued on the train to Euston.

If the TM didn't come to you after departure from Runcorn then I would have sought him out. You could then make a time/cost decision knowing exactly how much (if anything) you would be charged to stay on the train.

 

[SickyNicky]

If you split your tickets, you do indeed run the risk of missing your connection, especially if on advance tickets, and if you do miss you connection, you run the risk of having to pay for a walk up fare, unless otherwise stated that they have lifted restrictions on later services

I don't believe that is the case. If you split tickets, your tickets are combined to form one journey, entitling you to board the next available train should you miss a booked one as a result of a previous service delaying you.

You must still visit all the split stations in order, though, so the OP would not have been entitled to travel via London.

 

[Rich McLean]

I don't believe that is the case. If you split tickets, your tickets are combined to form one journey, entitling you to board the next available train should you miss a booked one as a result of a previous service delaying you.

You must still visit all the split stations in order, though, so the OP would not have been entitled to travel via London.

Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up. So yes, the OP in this matter was in the wrong.

 

[sheff1]

It is not quite as clear cut as that. I have been authorised to travel via a route which didn't go via my split station, but I obtained the authorisation before I boarded the train.

In the OP's case, he might (but very unlikely I would have thought) have been passed to London if he had broached the subject earlier.

 

[SickyNicky]

Yes, I too have been authorised to travel off-route on split tickets, but it's essential that you get this in writing before you go off route. Normally this will be a booking office stamp on the back of one of the tickets, with a description of the authorised route.

The OP didn't get this. He *may* have been passed via London if he had, and it's always worth a try.

Again, for the benefit of future travellers in this situtation, I stress that you should *always* get permission from the booking office or some authorised person (in writing) before you venture off route from your split tickets.

 

[soil]

I don't believe that is the case. If you split tickets, your tickets are combined to form one journey, entitling you to board the next available train should you miss a booked one as a result of a previous service delaying you.

This is not quite right

"If you purchase an Advance ticket, you must use that ticket in the train specified when you book your ticket. However, if you miss this service because a previous connecting train service was delayed you will be able to travel on the next service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked to travel without penalty. "

So had he missed a connection to a Stafford - Birmingham XC Advance, for example, he would not have had the right to board the next LM train had he missed that connection.

 

[ramitamimi]

Firstly,thanks everyone for your replies,although it looks like situation is hopeless.

Secondly,as ai said before ,I did ask the TM ,as he was closing the doors ,when leaving Liverpool,on which he asked where am I sitting ,and said that he will come and discuss the matter with me shortly.He only came at 17 24 after passing Stafford so I did not have chic but to pay £65

Off topic , I heard that Anytime tickets give you the right to upgrade for free on Vt,is that true?

 

[All Line Rover]

Off topic , I heard that Anytime tickets give you the right to upgrade for free on Vt,is that true?

At weekends, yes.

 

[Ferret]

You shouldn't have really been allowed to have a railcard discount. The conductor could have actually charged you £98.50.

Hmmmmm, I have to say that in similar situations, I will charge the cheapest available walk up fare rather than go by the book, and annoy a possibly irritated passenger even more. From what I can gather, this TM did neither one thing or the other - allowed a railcard discount but sold an anytime ticket?! Seems a little bit of a strange option to me.

 

[yorkie]

ramitamimi - Sorry, I find your posts a little difficult to read & follow.

From what I can gather, this TM did neither one thing or the other - allowed a railcard discount but sold an anytime ticket?! Seems a little bit of a strange option to me.

It is strange, but not unheard of. I've also known guards agree to sell Off Peak tickets but refuse a Railcard. It's not a case of allowing the appropriate fare (ie, giving the benefit of the doubt to the customer) but nor is it a case of charging the full fare. Just something random in between!

 

[bb21]

Secondly,as ai said before ,I did ask the TM ,as he was closing the doors ,when leaving Liverpool

Again, what exactly did you say to him?

Different questions get different answers. Maybe there was confusion, maybe he didn't realise how urgent the matter needed to be sorted out. If you don't tell us, no one can tell you.

 

[34D]

A few issues here:

* there is no right at all, while holding a London Midland Advance ticket, to be carried by any other carrier

This is incorrect, soil. To quote National Rail Conditions of Carriage Clause 43:

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

My bold.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Firstly,thanks everyone for your replies,although it looks like situation is hopeless.

Secondly,as ai said before ,I did ask the TM ,as he was closing the doors ,when leaving Liverpool,on which he asked where am I sitting ,and said that he will come and discuss the matter with me shortly.He only came at 17 24 after passing Stafford so I did not have chic but to pay £65

Sounds like entrapment or coersion to me. I once had a similar situation, when I asked an EC guard (on Doncaster platform) for permission to board his train without a ticket, I boarded at the door where he was using the panel and stood there, then when we had pulled out he refused to sell me anything other than an anytime (though he did eventually agree to sell me a weekly season).

As to what to do next.... I'd suggest a nice letter to Virgin customer relations enclosing a copy of all tickets. Explain that you'd typed Liverpool to Newbury into a planner (which I assume you did do) and it recommended going via Euston. Emphasise that you spoke with the TM before departure from Liverpool and he said he would come and see you in your seat, but didn't do so until after Stafford. Explain that you were polite, and co-operated by paying the £65, but say that you have since found out that NRCOC clause 43 obliges other TOC's to offer assistance to passengers in your situation if they reasonably can.

I don't suppose you took photos of the monitors at Liverpool showing the delays and cancellations?

 

[ramitamimi]

Dialog with TM
TM ,started to type in sth in his machine
Meo is there no way ,you let me go to Euston,with those tickets?
TM:let's see your tickets
TM:You could only travel with those to Stafford,so I have to issue you a Stafford-Euston ticket
Mek
TMshowing me the screen),that's £65 for a single,and that's with your railcard
Me,sorry, but that's the price for anytime ticket,can I please get an off peak one
TM:we don't issue off peak on the train,and I did say that anyone with lam tickets ,will be charged full fare.
Me:I assumed,that Fuji fare is the walk up ticket,with restrictions,relevant to the time of the day,etc,and if you came to me before Stafford,and told me that's going to be £65 ,I would get off ,and buy a ticket on from the Tvm for next VT service.
TM :....started t issue a ticket
Meo what s in your opinion reasonable route?
TM:get off at Stafford ,go to rugby,than go to Wolverhampton ,than use the tram to snow hill,and then get to new street.


1)At that moment,I didn't now that they can't issue off peak on trains,but now I went though my old tickets,and found off peak single Stoke on Trent-Euston issud by TM

2)No one ever mentioned how is someone supposed to go from Stafford to rugby,and from there to Wolverhampton ,(which TOC) and timings. ( I don't think every passenger has an iPhone with national rail app on it). You also need to get from snow hill to new street somehow.

3)if you type in Liverpool to newbury ,it will give you route via London ,costing just £60,from Stafford it is just £49.50

4)sorry guys,that my posts may be difficult to read,English is not my first language

 

[All Line Rover]

TM:get off at Stafford ,go to rugby,than go to Wolverhampton ,than use the tram to snow hill,and then get to new street.

A TM will never say that.

 

[soil]

This is incorrect, soil. To quote National Rail Conditions of Carriage Clause 43:

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

I think that is open to interpretation.

Obviously if it is midnight and there are no more trains, then you are stranded.

It is not however clear that the OP was stranded. Delayed, yes. Stranded, maybe not..

Dialog with TM
TM ,started to type in sth in his machine
Meo is there no way ,you let me go to Euston,with those tickets?
TM:let's see your tickets
TM:You could only travel with those to Stafford,so I have to issue you a Stafford-Euston ticket
Mek
TMshowing me the screen),that's £65 for a single,and that's with your railcard
Me,sorry, but that's the price for anytime ticket,can I please get an off peak one
TM:we don't issue off peak on the train,and I did say that anyone with lam tickets ,will be charged full fare.
Me:I assumed,that Fuji fare is the walk up ticket,with restrictions,relevant to the time of the day,etc,and if you came to me before Stafford,and told me that's going to be £65 ,I would get off ,and buy a ticket on from the Tvm for next VT service.
TM :....started t issue a ticket
Meo what s in your opinion reasonable route?
TM:get off at Stafford ,go to rugby,than go to Wolverhampton ,than use the tram to snow hill,and then get to new street.

You bought a specific set of tickets covering you to go a specific route, which was Liverpool - Birmingham - Reading - London

If you had held a Liverpool - London ticket you could have chosen to go via Reading, or take the direct train to London.

Since you split your tickets you were required to stick to that route, at least vaguely.

 

[bb21]

Dialog with TM
TM ,started to type in sth in his machine
Meo is there no way ,you let me go to Euston,with those tickets?
...
Meo what s in your opinion reasonable route?
TM:get off at Stafford ,go to rugby,than go to Wolverhampton ,than use the tram to snow hill,and then get to new street.

I don't mean that dialogue. I mean the one that took place when you were at Liverpool. You say that you asked him. What did you ask him and what did he say?

I'm sorry but imo you were not stranded. There were plenty of other option for you on the day using services of the specified train company to get to your destination without being overly late from Stafford onwards. Condition 43 does not apply as a result.

 

[ramitamimi]

Me:Can I buy a ticket from Stafford?
TM: why do you want to do this
Me:because I don't want to risk going via Stafford
TM: ok I will see you shortly

 

[ian959]

I may be missing something but if the conversation you say you had with the TM is as you have indicated then he has done exactly what you asked - sold you a ticket from Stafford and that unfortunately can only be an Anytime Single. Based upon what you have said I cannot see that there is anything that can be done.

I would also agree with All Line Rover that a TM would never have suggested the route you have described as a reasonable route.

 

[island]

Agreed. You technically do not have a right to be sold a discounted ticket on board if there was an opportunity to buy it before boarding, even if you approach the guard while holding a valid ticket. Most guards will not have a problem with it, but there's always one...

 

[snail]

Sounds like entrapment or coersion to me.

You need to check the definitions of those words. It's nothing more than following the rules. Virgin have a clearly stated policy that only Anytime tickets are sold on trains. The OP was told he could go to Stafford on his ticket(s) and appears to have done nothing once on the train to sort out the change of route via Euston. From his account he was told nothing that should lead him to believe he could get to Euston for an Off Peak fare.

If I was in that position I would have tried to find the TM on the train before it got to Stafford - not difficult to do - or simply got off at Stafford and weighed up my options from there.

 

[Darandio]

Me:Can I buy a ticket from Stafford?
TM: why do you want to do this
Me:because I don't want to risk going via Stafford
TM: ok I will see you shortly

Reading from the start where you state the TM took 90 minutes to get to you, and then seeing this, why did you not try and seek out someone in the 45 minutes or so between Liverpool and Stafford?

Surely when nobody had come back to you after half an hour or so, you wouldn't then remain planted in your seat and go past the point in which you didn't want to risk travelling?

Or am I missing the obvious?

 

[34D]

You need to check the definitions of those words. It's nothing more than following the rules. Virgin have a clearly stated policy that only Anytime tickets are sold on trains.

And as you are well aware, such a 'policy' is not in compliance with the NRCOC.

 

[snail]

And as you are well aware, such a 'policy' is not in compliance with the NRCOC.

You make a wrong assumption. I am not aware it was against the conditions. Neither do I think it is, where the passenger has had the opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding the train. Please explain.