London underground strike

[chris11256]

What if your current employer said they were changing your Friday and Saturday shifts from 08:00-16:00 to 21:00-05:00 how would you feel?

Taking a job on knowing there are nights involved is one thing, but taking a job on which doesn't have nights and then several years later being told you will soon be working nights is rather different.

A very good point. I actually work at a Boarding School so overnight shifts really wouldn't surprise me. Please don't give them ideas .
Personally I'd want that shift to be paid at my overtime rate(and even then an improved overtime rate) opposed to my normal rate.

 

[A-driver]

May be worth laying out a scenario to see what people really would do if this happened to them. You have worked 20years for an employer selling their cars mon-fri 9-5. Your lifestyle, childcare, social life etc is based around these working hours. On your way to work one day you read an advert in the paper from your employer saying that from next year the car showrooms will be open 24/7. You get into work and ask your boss what that's all about and how it will affect your job. Your boss says 'I'm not willing to discuss that now' and walks off. This happens a few times as the publicity builds up over the months and every time you ask if you are going to be working out of your current hours you get a refusal to talk. Then, with no warning, a poster is put up in the staff office with new hours of work commencing in 2months time. Instead of working min-fri 9-5 you are now down to work weekends, evenings, nights etc. meaning your entire life is going to be affected. Who will look after your young kids on a Sunday? Or whilst you work Wednesday 1900-0500 etc? And all this time you have asked your boss for details so you can start planning your life around these changes and they have refused to talk to you.

 

[455driver]

A very good point. I actually work at a Boarding School so overnight shifts really wouldn't surprise me. Please don't give them ideas .
Personally I'd want that shift to be paid at my overtime rate(and even then an improved overtime rate) opposed to my normal rate.

It would be a normal shift, therefore paid at normal rate, no enhancement at all.

 

[chris11256]

It would be a normal shift, therefore paid at normal rate, no enhancement at all.

In that case I'd probably agree But start looking for a new job. As on call IT cover I can understand. But I'd need some persuading that an overnight shift actually benefits the organisation.

Of course it's a completely different kettle of fish in IT where there is plenty of other opportunities. Not sure how many LU drivers would actually leave over this.

 

[A-driver]

In that case I'd probably agree But start looking for a new job. As on call IT cover I can understand. But I'd need some persuading that an overnight shift actually benefits the organisation.

Of course it's a completely different kettle of fish in IT where there is plenty of other opportunities. Not sure how many LU drivers would actually leave over this.

I doubt many would leave over it as few would be against the 24hour runnin. That has never been the issue here. The lack of communication and unwillingness to discuss and negotiate the staffing and rosters are what has caused the issue.

 

[fIIsion]

In that case I'd probably agree But start looking for a new job. As on call IT cover I can understand. But I'd need some persuading that an overnight shift actually benefits the organisation.

Of course it's a completely different kettle of fish in IT where there is plenty of other opportunities. Not sure how many LU drivers would actually leave over this.

I would like to stress that this dispute does not only concern drivers, which to some degree is part of the problem.

The new offer made a few days ago, which was essentially a re-hash of an existing offer has angered quite a number of managers who are asking why they are not getting equally compensated as the drivers. Many station staff feel the same way as well as engineers, train techs, signallers, control room staff, power control, etc, etc, ...........

Its a real mess which should have all been sorted out ages ago. Boris announced night tube late 2013. Talks only began in February of this year. What the hell was going on in 2014!!!!!

 

[chris11256]

I'd like to pose a hypothetical question. Lets assume all unions keep striking and talks keep failing. Come September TFL goes ahead and introduces the night tube with rosters imposed anyway.

Do we end up with a never ending cycle of increasingly long strikes(maybe 3/4 days) and failed talks. Or do strikes loose effect over time because staff cant afford to keep losing pay?

Or do we simply hope that one side blinks first?

I only ask because rhetoric is getting harder from each side, with neither looking to give in soon.

 

[GadgetMan]

Not sure how the rostering agreements on the Tube operate. But at most mainline TOCs new rosters have to be agreed by the union. So if a situation like you describe arises then staff would continue to work to the old roster and turn up for work/clock off at the previous rostered times. Its then up to the company to allocate work to fit in with those times. Its called Black Inking I believe.

 

[Kristofferson]

This is the thing that most people seem to miss, due to TFL's endless advertising to the contrary - if the staff aren't happy, Night Tube won't happen.

 

[LAX54]

So some of this, or even a majority of this (inclding some Main Line issues) is really all down to cost cutting, and the continuing cutting back on staff levels to bare minimum ?

Was it not in 2012 and the Olympics, the Train services all over, including the LU had been the best for years, faults rectified quickly and with little or no delay, now we are back to normal. difference.....during that time there was enough staff on duty to cater for almost all eventualties, ok they were on O/T but the staff were there ! The same here really they want to run lost more and overnight, but there is not really enought staff to cover all this, so need to change everyone's life to do it, they say they are empying more staff.... this night malarky was in 2013, but there are still not enough staff, so what have they been doing, hopiing that they can get away with not employing more people ??

 

[455driver]

Even if they had enough staff they still couldn't run the night tube because the staff are not contracted to work nights.

For them to work nights requires an amendment to the staffs contracts and Baffoonboy hasn't offered anything for the staff to even consider working the nights.
He wants the staff to work them on their existing contracts which isn't going to happen.

 

[Taunton]

It would be a normal shift, therefore paid at normal rate, no enhancement at all.

As I understand it ...

Some years ago there was a complex pay structure, with all sorts of premium pay additions. Say the basic was £10/hour, there were then premiums for overtime, Sundays, etc, etc, which meant pay was often notably different from week to week.

It was then agreed that all this would be rolled up into a flat rate for all hours, which was a substantial increase on the old basic. Lets say 60% on the basic, to £16/hour. Pay increases since then have been upwards from this figure. Someone will have the actual figures.

Ever since this was done there have been all sorts of issues created whenever the workload outside "normal" hours was changed. Didn't we have some years of strikes over Boxing Day service? What we have now seems to be the same, wanting a premium on that £16/hour rate, which already includes the premium amount.

 

[Mojo]

Even if they had enough staff they still couldn't run the night tube because the staff are not contracted to work nights.

For them to work nights requires an amendment to the staffs contracts and Baffoonboy hasn't offered anything for the staff to even consider working the nights.
He wants the staff to work them on their existing contracts which isn't going to happen.

Train staff are already contracted to work nights and in fact many depots already have night shifts. The Piccadilly line for example has around 20 night duties every night.

The main issue is that changes to rosters will involve more staff working nights, and weekends, and those staff working nights will have to deal with the additional hazards of running trains in customer service.

 

[DelayRepay]

Out of interest how long does it take to train a tube driver? I know it can take over a year to train on the mainline, I assume it's a shorter period to train a tube driver because the route knowledge wouldn't be as extensive.

Could LUL recruit a team of part time workers just to staff the night tube?

 

[Daniel]

Train staff are already contracted to work nights and in fact many depots already have night shifts. The Piccadilly line for example has around 20 night duties every night.

The main issue is that changes to rosters will involve more staff working nights, and weekends, and those staff working nights will have to deal with the additional hazards of running trains in customer service.

However, I believe the Professional Train Operators Agreement* States that all-night running will only occur up to 3 times per year, so just because staff are contracted to work all-night, agreements do still need modification for the Night Tube to run.

*It may not be PTOA, but I have seen it in one of the frameworks!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Could LUL recruit a team of part time workers just to staff the night tube?

They could have done, and many union members wanted that to happen. The blogger "Aslef shrugged" was definitely in favour of that.

They've had eighteen months to sort this out. The fact they haven't should tell us everything we need to know about TfL management's true motivation.

There are night shift staff on the tube, but there isn't enough of them to cover Night Tube because of the additional demands of running in public service. And I'll be honest, if I worked as a CSA in a station you could double my pay and I'd still not want to be up mopping up sick until 6am every weekend.

 

[Taunton]

And I'll be honest, if I worked as a CSA in a station you could double my pay and I'd still not want to be up mopping up sick until 6am every weekend.

You should try working in a hospital where the pay is a fraction of what TfL pays, and then you would be in for this 24 hours a day.

 

[Greenback]

The point is that people know what is involved when they take a job in a hospital. Major changes to working hours need to be implemented with sensitivity, and involving negotiation and compromises. Not imposed by senior management who don't really want it either and will try and create a situation where the unions are blamed for the failure to introduce the changes required.

 

[jopsuk]

You should try working in a hospital where the pay is a fraction of what TfL pays, and then you would be in for this 24 hours a day.

yay! Race to the bottom!

 

[Mojo]

However, I believe the Professional Train Operators Agreement* States that all-night running will only occur up to 3 times per year, so just because staff are contracted to work all-night, agreements do still need modification for the Night Tube to run.

*It may not be PTOA, but I have seen it in one of the frameworks!

It's the Service Control framework

 

[bluegoblin7]

And I'll be honest, if I worked as a CSA in a station you could double my pay and I'd still not want to be up mopping up sick until 6am every weekend.

Actually, for many of us CSAs that's the least of our concerns; it's something that happens anyway (particularly Friday/Saturday evenings, but not exclusively so) and we could deal with more of it overnight. And I won't share the photo of what we found on a bench whilst closing up last night...

The major concern on stations is the safety of staff and customers - or lack of. We've had no firm assurances about how BTP will be deployed or what measures are in place to keep us safe. Staff assaults are already increasing, Night Tube is only going to add to that further.

 

[fIIsion]

It's the Service Control framework

Daniel is correct about the PTOA.

 

[lonogrol]

Daniel is correct about the PTOA.

MoJo is correct in saying that neither the P.T.O.A. or trains framework has anything that says all night trains cannot happen on any more than 3 times. Several rep's have confirmed this to me.


Service control agreement says -
Please see detailed below, arrangements for major special events where it is necessary to operate the railway for customers throughout the night. It is not envisaged that this would normally exceed thee events per annum.

 

[nidave]

Are they looking to hire more staff to cover the extra shifts are are the current staff supposed to be able to cover everything?
I would have thought new contracts could be used for new people and the current staff have an option to move to the new contracts?
Or just hire people for the weekend night services only.

 

[Deerfold]

Are they looking to hire more staff to cover the extra shifts are are the current staff supposed to be able to cover everything?

It would appear not - see post 136.

I would have thought new contracts could be used for new people and the current staff have an option to move to the new contracts?
Or just hire people for the weekend night services only.

Whilst that may be possible, there's now unlikely to be enough time to recruit and train station staff, never mind drivers by September 12.

 

[nidave]

It would appear not - see post 136.



Whilst that may be possible, there's now unlikely to be enough time to recruit and train station staff, never mind drivers by September 12.

Yea - its far to late to be getting this sorted - I understand how much pressure there is on everyone, including managers to do things but should never had got to this stage.

 

[Kristofferson]

I wonder when The Metro and other popular media will acknowledge the fact that this ain't gonna happen in September...

 

[Domh245]

The day after they were supposed to start, accompanied by sensationalist headlines

 

[bluegoblin7]

We took all of the Night Tube posters down today... make of that what you will...!

 

[Kristofferson]

Well, that is interesting. From an enthusiast point of view, glad I rode the liveried Piccadilly Line train before the vinyls are quietly removed!