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Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)
- Thread starter GusB
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I applaud Lothian for doing this. They know the amount of disruption this will cause folk, but sometimes you have to make a stand.
You wouldn't run a service if the weather was too bad and you were losing mileage hand over fist. So the same applies of you are dropping services due to acts of vandalism.
Sometimes you have to throw the problem back at society to sort out.
You wouldn't run a service if the weather was too bad and you were losing mileage hand over fist. So the same applies of you are dropping services due to acts of vandalism.
Sometimes you have to throw the problem back at society to sort out.
Graham Alexand
Member
Quite frankly, I am surprised that Edinburgh is getting bad for this.
Also the money that has to be spent repairing the buses vandalised and drivers having too be treated for injuries.
Personally I think Public Transport shouldn't be a right, it should be a privilege and for people that treat them with respect.
Also the money that has to be spent repairing the buses vandalised and drivers having too be treated for injuries.
Personally I think Public Transport shouldn't be a right, it should be a privilege and for people that treat them with respect.
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Scotrail88
Member
- Joined
- 21 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 317
I admire and congratulate Lothian for taking this stance , albeit a blanket impact to be the message to hit home!
I do however wonder how this would be taken should it happen in another city. Glasgow has consistent vandalism and in past has withdrawn from Castlemilk which has only caused uproar from politicians, residents,etc.
Hopefully this message gets out across the country and others follow suit if happens there!
I do however wonder how this would be taken should it happen in another city. Glasgow has consistent vandalism and in past has withdrawn from Castlemilk which has only caused uproar from politicians, residents,etc.
Hopefully this message gets out across the country and others follow suit if happens there!
SpeedbirdA350
Member
While many people will be angry, they should direct the anger at those (insert word(s) of your choice here) for throwing rocks and bricks at buses. It was either this, or someone was going to get killed.
I suspect some routes tomorrow will be curtailed to avoid the trouble areas.
I do feel sorry for nurses etc who need the buses, however, it's better this than a driver or passenger being killed.
I suspect some routes tomorrow will be curtailed to avoid the trouble areas.
I do feel sorry for nurses etc who need the buses, however, it's better this than a driver or passenger being killed.
Auld reekie
Member
- Joined
- 23 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 324
Tartan shorts
Member
A blanket approach ensures complaints can't be made about specific areas being unfairly deprived of their service, as was the issue in Castlemilk, Glasgow.
Personally, whilst it is punishing the law abiding majority I see no reason not to deprive problem areas of an evening service. Certain areas tend to self police and the locals are more likely to sort the issue out than the authorities are.
The NHS have confirmed staff taxis will be laid on if required which is good, given the short notice. People working in other sectors are less likely to be so fortunate.
Of course bigger picture is the problem with society on a whole where this behaviour often goes unpunished or when the culprits do get caught, the justice system doesn't do it's job. That said, that's a whole discussion for elsewhere for people far more intelligent than me.
Personally, whilst it is punishing the law abiding majority I see no reason not to deprive problem areas of an evening service. Certain areas tend to self police and the locals are more likely to sort the issue out than the authorities are.
The NHS have confirmed staff taxis will be laid on if required which is good, given the short notice. People working in other sectors are less likely to be so fortunate.
Of course bigger picture is the problem with society on a whole where this behaviour often goes unpunished or when the culprits do get caught, the justice system doesn't do it's job. That said, that's a whole discussion for elsewhere for people far more intelligent than me.
Just to echo the last comment, discussion of suitable punishments for these miscreants is not a subject for this thread. General Discussion is the place, although you'll probably find previous threads discussing capital punishment 
eoff
Member
So are the NHS workers who are going on night shift tonight going to be recompensed for any extra costs by the bus company?
SpeedbirdA350
Member
I know that several buses were damaged tonight again. It's just pathetic.
NHS Lothian will be putting on taxis for staff who need to get home using public transport, so no staff member will be out of pocket. They need to speak to their line manager.
221129
Established Member
No. Why would they?
RomeoCharlie71
Established Member
I believe the NHS are paying for taxis for staff affected.
The only negative comments I've seen have been people speaking on behalf of people inconvenienced, the people who are affected by this are overwhelmingly speaking in support of it from what I've seen on Facebook and Twitter etc. Are you an NHS worker, and if so, how do you feel?
It's not just for staff safety and preventing damage to vehicles - it's for customer safety too. The situation is wildly out of hand and now it's getting national press coverage maybe it'll push the political and legal change needed.
eoff
Member
Because people will have purchased ridacards with the expectation that the bus company runs a service, so I don't see how withdrawing a service that has been paid for is justified without some compensation unless there is a real risk to pasengers/driver on the particular service in question.
SpeedbirdA350
Member
Bricks and rocks have been thrown at vehicles smashing windows and windscreens. MANY buses been taken off the road. A driver was HOSPITALISED. Should the company wait until a person is killed before acting?! What if a brick hit a passenger? What if it hit the driver? Although if that happened, people would say they should have acted before now. If you're inconvenienced, I am sure Lothian will refund your 50p if you ask them to.
Are you going to answer my question or continue wilfully ignoring the issue at hand here? Are you a key worker making an essential journey tonight in Edinburgh?
221129
Established Member
They can change the timetable. Same as the COVID changes we've seen over the last 12 months.
Well said.
The risk to both driver and passenger is clearly a very real one as people have described above. While a driver may not be physically injured by a missile hitting their bus, it's a hell of a shock and it'd be very easy to momentarily lose concentration and/or control of the vehicle.
If a passenger suffers from injuries, either as a result of the driver losing control, or directly from one of the objects being thrown, who is liable? The ambulance chasers would have a field day.
Anyway, this is clearly an emotive subject and I think we all need to calm down a bit.
If a passenger suffers from injuries, either as a result of the driver losing control, or directly from one of the objects being thrown, who is liable? The ambulance chasers would have a field day.
Anyway, this is clearly an emotive subject and I think we all need to calm down a bit.
eoff
Member
As far as I'm aware nobody has said they should have taken no action. I think they should have done it differently and with more warning.
They could park all the broken buses on Princes St. for example.
I realise those here who work for the bus company or travel in those locations will see it differently.
I used to travel to the ERI every workday for years and see the nurses leaving after a night shift and I can imagine people in that area have real mixed feelings about this. My daughter works night shifts for the NHS but can travel to work by car.
221129
Established Member
So basically you're getting upset over something that hasn't effected you. Maybe direct your outrage at the yobs actually doing these acts instead of the bus company that's just looking out for its staff and passengers safety.
SpeedbirdA350
Member
One question. Imagine your daughter is on a bus which has just been attacked by those youths, she's petrified as the brick came through the window she was sitting next to. Showered in glass. Would you still be saying that more warning was needed?
This has been going on for months, and last weekend they withdrew services from Clermiston for this very reason. If that was not a warning, then I really don't know what was.
Please try and understand that no company like Lothian EVER want to put customers out. They never want to inconvenience people. However, when it comes down to life and death situations, which this falls in to, if Lothian did not act tonight and a death occurred, the legal fallout would be massive. Lothian had no choice but to do this, and they gave as much warning as possible.
You could also look back at last year when we had a major snowstorm that shut the entire network down. No warning of that at all.
eoff
Member
I have no problem whatsoever with the withdrawal of individual services in response to a real risk in a particular area, I had assumed that was already going on.
Now if you are telling me this is happening everywhere in Edinburgh and in the coverage area of the other two bus companies then that would be a different matter, but I was under the impression that was not the case.
SpeedbirdA350
Member
Yes, I am telling you that this IS widespread and happening in many places in Edinburgh, not just one or two locations. That is why it is not as simple as just curtailing some routes. And we are not talking about little stones here, but actual house bricks.
Now, let's move on from this and look ahead.
FlybeDash8Q400
Established Member
The issue of refunds regarding this while it’s one I understand it’s one I don’t agree with, and even then for an up to £60ish ridacard it’s quite cheeky to expect a £2 refund and is it really worth it when you consider what’s been happening here?
The one that I do agree with though on the other hand was how refunds were dealt with in lockdown number 1. Ultimately a very low level of service was (for around 10-12 weeks I think it was) being offered and probably didn’t represent value for money and nobody could go anywhere (except for very limited reasons), although I respect the fact it did cost more to run. The company did receive a number of complaints about not offering a deferred system. This may not be the case but from a Lothian users perspective it felt at times that they were trying to avoid this as much as possible, as I’ve said though that may not have been the case but that was how it came across. It could have been dealt with a lot better.
It’s done now and ultimately I still used the bus fairly often and there’s far bigger things in life than paying more for a bus service. Bus travel in Edinburgh is still very cheap compared to other cities, especially when you consider how expensive the city is to live in now.
I understand where those that are not happy about the withdrawal tonight are coming from, but ultimately this decision has been taken with very good reason. I just hope this helps in the long run but have doubts that it will reduce the number of incidents in the short to medium term. Nobody should be having this happen to them and there’s a good chance we could be sitting here at this time tomorrow with no buses and if that’s the case then it is what it is.
The one that I do agree with though on the other hand was how refunds were dealt with in lockdown number 1. Ultimately a very low level of service was (for around 10-12 weeks I think it was) being offered and probably didn’t represent value for money and nobody could go anywhere (except for very limited reasons), although I respect the fact it did cost more to run. The company did receive a number of complaints about not offering a deferred system. This may not be the case but from a Lothian users perspective it felt at times that they were trying to avoid this as much as possible, as I’ve said though that may not have been the case but that was how it came across. It could have been dealt with a lot better.
It’s done now and ultimately I still used the bus fairly often and there’s far bigger things in life than paying more for a bus service. Bus travel in Edinburgh is still very cheap compared to other cities, especially when you consider how expensive the city is to live in now.
I understand where those that are not happy about the withdrawal tonight are coming from, but ultimately this decision has been taken with very good reason. I just hope this helps in the long run but have doubts that it will reduce the number of incidents in the short to medium term. Nobody should be having this happen to them and there’s a good chance we could be sitting here at this time tomorrow with no buses and if that’s the case then it is what it is.
OmniCity999
Established Member
Im not going to sit here and target every post because really i cant be bothered, but:
- Multiple members of staff have received injuries - one could have potentially lost his sight - potentially life changing injuries... for doing their job.
- At last count, over 25 buses have received damage, cost of which comes from... you got it, the bus company.
- Our vehicles cost between £250,000 and £350,000 each
- Glazing isnt cheap, panelling isnt cheap
- It takes time and costs great amounts of money to repair vehicles
- (ultimately human life doesnt have a cost)
- Passengers have narrowly escaped injury
- There isnt much more the police can / will do
- A blanket curtailment of services is the ONLY option the company has. If this didnt happen, staff would rightly push for industrial action, resulting in the same situation, but throughout the day.
- Parking all the damaged vehicles in a public place isnt going to resolve or prevent anything, potentially resulting in more damage.
- The NHS and those companies who employ key workers are paying for transport. Nobody will be left stranded, especially after recent events.
As i see it, the only way to sort this out long term is to continue curtailment of service, to a point where constituents put pressure on councillors. Councillors then either put pressure on police or enforce curfew, curfew then resulting in police enforcing and targeting those who cause trouble.
The public service provider isnt the problem here, its bored children and teens that have been locked up for a year. Teens and children who would normally have social clubs and the such to spend their time on.
This needs enforcement from the top, councils and governments need to get control of this, once they do, the police do and so does the operator.
Dont blame the people who provide you with a service, when the issue is out of their hands.
And i'm sorry if this upsets anyone, but im truly passionate about this, after having a member of family effected by it.
- Multiple members of staff have received injuries - one could have potentially lost his sight - potentially life changing injuries... for doing their job.
- At last count, over 25 buses have received damage, cost of which comes from... you got it, the bus company.
- Our vehicles cost between £250,000 and £350,000 each
- Glazing isnt cheap, panelling isnt cheap
- It takes time and costs great amounts of money to repair vehicles
- (ultimately human life doesnt have a cost)
- Passengers have narrowly escaped injury
- There isnt much more the police can / will do
- A blanket curtailment of services is the ONLY option the company has. If this didnt happen, staff would rightly push for industrial action, resulting in the same situation, but throughout the day.
- Parking all the damaged vehicles in a public place isnt going to resolve or prevent anything, potentially resulting in more damage.
- The NHS and those companies who employ key workers are paying for transport. Nobody will be left stranded, especially after recent events.
As i see it, the only way to sort this out long term is to continue curtailment of service, to a point where constituents put pressure on councillors. Councillors then either put pressure on police or enforce curfew, curfew then resulting in police enforcing and targeting those who cause trouble.
The public service provider isnt the problem here, its bored children and teens that have been locked up for a year. Teens and children who would normally have social clubs and the such to spend their time on.
This needs enforcement from the top, councils and governments need to get control of this, once they do, the police do and so does the operator.
Dont blame the people who provide you with a service, when the issue is out of their hands.
And i'm sorry if this upsets anyone, but im truly passionate about this, after having a member of family effected by it.
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duffers2324
Member
Well said @OmniCity999
Jordan Adam
Established Member
Perhaps a solution would be to reduce and revise the routes in the evening to avoid the problem streets/areas, often vandals will strike in roughly the same places, however although it can work critics of this solution would argue that the vandals would just move to wherever the buses are. Converting services to single deck operating in the evening can also help reduce attacks as it removes the possibility of a vandal doing something "out of sight" on the upper deck.
Like others in the thread i applaud Lothian for the bold move they've made. Thankfully we've not seen any of it here, but i think it's best we avoid flat out pointing fingers at parents (which is what the Facebook Parade like to do...) as i can guarantee most are unaware their kids are doing this and would be just as appalled as us if they found it. Hopefully some of the attacks have been caught on CCTV and can be forwarded to the relevant authorities.
Also like it or not but access to public transport is a right, people need to be able to travel. You can't permanently isolate a community purely because of a small number of mindless thugs.
Like others in the thread i applaud Lothian for the bold move they've made. Thankfully we've not seen any of it here, but i think it's best we avoid flat out pointing fingers at parents (which is what the Facebook Parade like to do...) as i can guarantee most are unaware their kids are doing this and would be just as appalled as us if they found it. Hopefully some of the attacks have been caught on CCTV and can be forwarded to the relevant authorities.
I agree entirely, that's also not to forget the revenue lost having vehicles off the road and the potential shortage of vehicles leading to cancelled services. They've had multiple buses off the road here for up to 4 weeks at a time purely because one window has been put in and they're waiting for parts.
It may come as a surprise but Edinburgh isn't the only place badly affected by vandalism lately, others areas are too, in fact most nights Stagecoach here are diverting the 59 to miss part of it's route. Vandalism can and does happen anywhere, it doesn't matter if the areas are affluent or not.
Also like it or not but access to public transport is a right, people need to be able to travel. You can't permanently isolate a community purely because of a small number of mindless thugs.