Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[A330Alex]

The tram works at York Place are ahead of schedule which should help things as Leith St can then reopen northbound in April. Leith Walk will also be completed by July.

I’m not sure how you help to cope with North Bridge though. The Mound is getting a bus gate anyway in a few years, add one over the festival to try and keep at least one corridor moving?

 

[mb88]

I’m not sure how you help to cope with North Bridge though. The Mound is getting a bus gate anyway in a few years, add one over the festival to try and keep at least one corridor moving?

The Mound is a nightmare just now. Specifically at the Princes Street end where traffic crossing over to Hanover Street fails to anticipate the fact that the queue down Hanover Street will prevent them from clearing the junction and so block the road for buses going eastbound on Princes Street. I’ve sat there for 3 changes of lights before managing to get through. It needs a yellow box Junction with camera enforcement. Sorry to say as well that it’s not only cars doing this but other supposedly professional bus drivers who should be looking ahead and not proceeding if they can’t clear the junction.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The Mound is a nightmare just now. Specifically at the Princes Street end where traffic crossing over to Hanover Street fails to anticipate the fact that the queue down Hanover Street will prevent them from clearing the junction and so block the road for buses going eastbound on Princes Street. I’ve sat there for 3 changes of lights before managing to get through. It needs a yellow box Junction with camera enforcement. Sorry to say as well that it’s not only cars doing this but other supposedly professional bus drivers who should be looking ahead and not proceeding if they can’t clear the junction.

Before all of these diversions it was a problem, it’s now even worse. It blocks the road, the pedestrian crossings and sometimes cars even move forward when the green man is on. I agree really should have boxes and cameras installed. Eastbound as you say you have to wait for ages or the driver is forced into doing a manoeuvre around all of the traffic.

 

[mb88]

Before all of these diversions it was a problem, it’s now even worse. It blocks the road, the pedestrian crossings and sometimes cars even move forward when the green man is on. I agree really should have boxes and cameras installed. Eastbound as you say you have to wait for ages or the driver is forced into doing a manoeuvre around all of the traffic.

It’s a real headache. With the York Place closure and normal traffic using the east end of Princes Street they should have made the left hand lane down Waterloo Place a bus lane and banned taxis from waiting outside the Balmoral to give buses a clear run to the stops at the Waverley steps. It can take upwards of 20 minutes at some times of day to get through the lights at the bottom of Waterloo Place. I also think it would have made sense to have the Country services terminating at St Andrew Square for the duration of the works to reduce pressure on Regent Road/Waterloo Place. But hey what do I know?

 

[alexf380]

They should also have had the foresight to change the light sequence at the top of Waverley bridge. It really gets me worked up having just taken an age to get past the Balmoral, to then sit and wait whilst the plant pots on the bridge get a green light.

 

[mb88]

They should also have had the foresight to change the light sequence at the top of Waverley bridge. It really gets me worked up having just taken an age to get past the Balmoral, to then sit and wait whilst the plant pots on the bridge get a green light.

Yeah it is infuriating although I think they’ve kept it the same because cyclists can still use Waverley Bridge.

 

[Auld reekie]

The Mound is a nightmare just now. Specifically at the Princes Street end where traffic crossing over to Hanover Street fails to anticipate the fact that the queue down Hanover Street will prevent them from clearing the junction and so block the road for buses going eastbound on Princes Street. I’ve sat there for 3 changes of lights before managing to get through. It needs a yellow box Junction with camera enforcement. Sorry to say as well that it’s not only cars doing this but other supposedly professional bus drivers who should be looking ahead and not proceeding if they can’t clear the junction.

It looks a nightmare.

 

[GusB]

If anyone wishes to discuss the general state of Edinburgh's roads, please feel free to start a thread in the Other Transport section of the forum. Please keep this one on topic.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and predict that LCB will pull out of West Lothian.

Lets nip that one in the bud right now.. the X18/27/28 are the busiest I’ve seen them in awhile all things considered, so I think it’s safe to say they are here to stay in West Lothian for the long run if not permanently

If I remember right the plan was to make all 124s limited stop Edinburgh to Musselburgh then all stops from there. The services which used to run as X24 in the peaks would then be replaced with additional X5s.

I don't really see the point in that to be honest, the 124 doesn't extend that far up Lothian Road and the 26 runs between Shandwick Place an Portobello with high frequency anyway.
The 45 provides a direct link from the Tollcross area down to Portobello anyway.

I mean if they bring back the X5 then I could see that working, when they made it an hourly service rather than 5 journeys a day it worked out rather well.

I don’t see the 15 coming back to Portobello either at this point, i think the bigger issue is if it’ll come back to Penicuik if anything. And your right the 26/124 and 45 cover the ground perfectly, although on that note.. maybe we could see an improvement with the 45?

200 - I would run it Airport - Maybury - Drumbrae S/N - Queensferry Rd - Telford Rd - Ferry Rd - Ocean Terminal (via Ferry Road as there are several B&Bs along there with potential for passengers)
300 - As is to Angle Park Terrace - then via West Approach Rd - Lothian Road- Melville Drive - Newington - Cameron Toll - RIE. Thus avoiding trying to turn right out of Nicholson Sq, and will speed up journey times
400- Exactly as is but Limited stop

200 could run through Drum Brae North as the 1/21/26 already cover the Clermiston area as it is, seems kind of pointless if you ask me when they decided that! However the fact it links Maybury/Drumbrae to Granton is perfect as it is so I wouldn’t reroute it through Ferry Road personally, anyone could switch over to a 21 if they need be!

Thats not a bad idea with the 300 there! having another service through the meadows would be a nice touch, and could really be popular in the summer with folk staying down Newington, I could see it working but who knows!

As someone who uses the 400 on a regular basis I would hate to see it becoming a limited stop service, the former 18 has finally got its calling, if anyone maybe a frequency increase might make more sense? The 300 used to be every 20 minutes when it ran to Cameron Toll, so maybe it could work with the 400?

Doesn't the 400 already serve RIE?

Well yeah! but the more links to the hospitals the better!

 

[InOban]

I think that there's a reason why there aren't buses along the Meadows. Few people needing to get on or off. On the other hand the route through Nicolson Sq. and Laurieston Place will generate lots of traffic from the university. That's the reason the 47 goes that way also.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and predict that LCB will pull out of West Lothian.

I think this is the most ridiculous comment that's ever been posted in this thread (and previous), ever. Unfortunately for fanboys of other companies, LCB isn't going anywhere.

 

[Graham Alexand]

I think this is the most ridiculous comment that's ever been posted in this thread (and previous), ever. Unfortunately for fanboys of other companies, LCB isn't going anywhere.

Agreed.

There would be a higher likelihood that First West Lothian would go before Lothian Country however I cant see either going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[tbtc]

The 300 is a tricky route - I saw the logic in the 35 extending to the Airport - I can see that there'd be a market between the Airport/Gyle towards areas of western Edinburgh that the 2/22/400 don't serve - but I don't know that there's enough market for the 34/35/300 - would it be better to go back to the 35 serving the Airport with some peak extras on the 34 to cater to Student flows?

If you are going to keep the 300 as a separate service then it seems odd to stop it at Cameron Toll rather than the Infirmary, given what a destination that is (it may cannibalise a few passengers from the 38, sure). Terminating it at Tolcross means missing out on a link from western Edinburgh to the main University area. I say either "go big or go home" - either merge the 35/300 back into one service or run the 300 all the way to the Infirmary (I'm not saying interwork it with the 400, just that the Infirmary is a better terminus)

Talking of Hospitals, it feels "wrong" that the Western General isn't served by either of the orbital services through north western Edinburgh (the 21 or the 200) - would diverting the 200 via Crewe Toll provide more links than the current route via Muirhouse? Or even running some 200s via the 47 route in Granton?

Lets nip that one in the bud right now.. the X18/27/28 are the busiest I’ve seen them in awhile all things considered, so I think it’s safe to say they are here to stay in West Lothian for the long run if not permanently

I remember all of the "experts" on here complaining about the X18 when it was introduced, "what's the point of running a service when First have demonstrated beyond belief that there's no market for a bus straight along the A89 to Bathgate, the improved train service means there's no market for buses"... yet it seems to have worked out pretty well

 

[mb88]

I think this is the most ridiculous comment that's ever been posted in this thread (and previous), ever. Unfortunately for fanboys of other companies, LCB isn't going anywhere.

And it’s up against some pretty stiff competition.

 

[freddiem]

Lets nip that one in the bud right now.. the X18/27/28 are the busiest I’ve seen them in awhile all things considered, so I think it’s safe to say they are here to stay in West Lothian for the long run if not permanently


I mean if they bring back the X5 then I could see that working, when they made it an hourly service rather than 5 journeys a day it worked out rather well.

I don’t see the 15 coming back to Portobello either at this point, i think the bigger issue is if it’ll come back to Penicuik if anything. And your right the 26/124 and 45 cover the ground perfectly, although on that note.. maybe we could see an improvement with the 45?



200 could run through Drum Brae North as the 1/21/26 already cover the Clermiston area as it is, seems kind of pointless if you ask me when they decided that! However the fact it links Maybury/Drumbrae to Granton is perfect as it is so I wouldn’t reroute it through Ferry Road personally, anyone could switch over to a 21 if they need be!

Thats not a bad idea with the 300 there! having another service through the meadows would be a nice touch, and could really be popular in the summer with folk staying down Newington, I could see it working but who knows!

As someone who uses the 400 on a regular basis I would hate to see it becoming a limited stop service, the former 18 has finally got its calling, if anyone maybe a frequency increase might make more sense? The 300 used to be every 20 minutes when it ran to Cameron Toll, so maybe it could work with the 400?


Well yeah! but the more links to the hospitals the better!

An increase of frequency on the 400 may be beneficial in the not too distant future with the 1000s of new homes along its route. Also on that front, I wonder if an increase on services 3/29/31/37/47 maybe necessary with the houses popping up all over the place adjacent to these routes.

 

[Darklord8899]

IIRC, the 300 was extended down to Cameron Toll to give the (new) hotel opposite the shopping centre and the guest houses throughout Newington a direct link to the airport. I'm not sure how many guest houses there are between Cameron Toll and the infirmary.

I get that the infirmary is probably a better terminus, but let's remember that the function of Skylink was providing links to the Airport, not hospitals!

I loved the 300 as it gave a far better and quicker alternative for me (than the 3) home from Newington to Sighthill completely missing out the Bridges, City Centre, West End, Dalry and Gorgie.

I used to be able to get home in around 40mins on the 300 from Newington to Sighthill, whilst the 3 was about an hour....
Currently at best I'm now about 1hr 15 min on the 3, often it's 1hr 30mins (or worse)

 

[computerSaysNo]

Currently at best I'm now about 1hr 15 min on the 3, often it's 1hr 30mins (or worse)

Couldn't you take anything to Waverley then X22/X23/X27/X28?

 

[ScotRail158725]

I'm going to stick my neck out here and predict that LCB will pull out of West Lothian.

and what makes you think that? Lothian Country are well established in West Lothian now. I was one of many who was always doubtful that Lothian Country would stay in WL however after they stayed after the first lockdown its quite evident they’re here to stay and are well beyond a vanity project. All their routes are succesful too, lots of busy buses across all routes

There would be a higher likelihood that First West Lothian would go before Lothian Country however I cant see either going anywhere anytime soon.

There is no higher likelihood of either company pulling out. Both First West Lothian and Lothian Country are getting decent loadings on their buses. It’s not a case of a bus war and one company pulling out and the other winning anymore

 

[Siemens Trains]

and what makes you think that? Lothian Country are well established in West Lothian now. I was one of many who was always doubtful that Lothian Country would stay in WL however after they stayed after the first lockdown its quite evident they’re here to stay and are well beyond a vanity project. All their routes are succesful too, lots of busy buses across all routes


There is no higher likelihood of either company pulling out. Both First West Lothian and Lothian Country are getting decent loadings on their buses. It’s not a case of a bus war and one company pulling out and the other winning anymore

That's quite interesting. Prior to the pandemic there seemed general agreement on here that there wasn't room for two major operators in the West Lothian market. I previously compared it to two bald men fighting over a comb.
You might think it even more true now with less commuting (and peak time travel is sometimes charged at a premium). But maybe having two operators has boosted demand for buses in the West Lothian area after all.

 

[Graham Alexand]

There is no higher likelihood of either company pulling out. Both First West Lothian and Lothian Country are getting decent loadings on their buses. It’s not a case of a bus war and one company pulling out and the other winning anymore

When I say "a higher liklihood that First wil pull out" isn't due to to loadings as I have seen the X24 quite full at the best of times or a personal bias.

The point I was edging at was the situation regarding driver shortages as First West Lothian is running essentially two thirds of a full service at the moment with several last minute cancellations of services.

 

[overthewater]

The companies have already give up certain parts of the network. First no longer operates to Craigshills, or Kirknewton, while LCB has nothing in Fauldhouse or a fast bus between Broxburn and Livingston etc. However it's clear as day which tribe people belong to around here.

As it stand the real loser right now are the public, who don't have comprehensive network or tickets for the West Lothian area.

 

[mb88]

I can honestly say that Lothian Country services are busier now than at any point in my 3 years there. And I say that with no bias or sense of loyalty to the company whatsoever. It’s just my observations from driving the routes day in day out. Previously, I did wonder how viable the network was as we were carrying fresh air around. Not so now. Even the 276 is getting busy, particularly over the Broxburn to Livingston section.

On a seperate note, electric charging points have now been installed at Livingston depot for the arrival of electric cars to replace the shuttle vans.

The companies have already give up certain parts of the network. First no longer operates to Craigshills, or Kirknewton, while LCB has nothing in Fauldhouse or a fast bus between Broxburn and Livingston etc.

What do you class as a fast bus between Broxburn and Livingston? A journey between Broxburn post office and Livingston Centre takes 29 minutes on the First X24, 28 minutes on the First 600, or 30 minutes on the Lothian 276.

 

[ScotRail158725]

That's quite interesting. Prior to the pandemic there seemed general agreement on here that there wasn't room for two major operators in the West Lothian market. I previously compared it to two bald men fighting over a comb.
You might think it even more true now with less commuting (and peak time travel is sometimes charged at a premium). But maybe having two operators has boosted demand for buses in the West Lothian area after all.

I find it very interesting how the West Lothian bus travel has changed over the past 4 years. The only real aspect in which one operator seems to do better than the other is the Edinburgh routes. The X18/27/28 typical have better loadings than the X22/24/25 however that largely comes down to the fact people in Sighthill/Longstone seem aware of the X27/28 and see it as the fast bus to town like people in Clovenstone and Wester Hailes see the 30 and the fact the X27/28 allow for onward travel in Edinburgh, despite that both companies do seem to be doing well now that both have settled with their current services and found what works and what doesn’t

 

[BobScott]

It’s a real headache. With the York Place closure and normal traffic using the east end of Princes Street they should have made the left hand lane down Waterloo Place a bus lane and banned taxis from waiting outside the Balmoral to give buses a clear run to the stops at the Waverley steps. It can take upwards of 20 minutes at some times of day to get through the lights at the bottom of Waterloo Place. I also think it would have made sense to have the Country services terminating at St Andrew Square for the duration of the works to reduce pressure on Regent Road/Waterloo Place. But hey what do I know?

So where in St Andrew Square would you have the terminus? It’s already full up with tour buses and Airlink.

 

[Siemens Trains]

So where in St Andrew Square would you have the terminus? It’s already full up with tour buses and Airlink.

How about the unused tram stop or South St Andrew Street?

 

[LiviCrazy]

I find it very interesting how the West Lothian bus travel has changed over the past 4 years. The only real aspect in which one operator seems to do better than the other is the Edinburgh routes. The X18/27/28 typical have better loadings than the X22/24/25 however that largely comes down to the fact people in Sighthill/Longstone seem aware of the X27/28 and see it as the fast bus to town like people in Clovenstone and Wester Hailes see the 30 and the fact the X27/28 allow for onward travel in Edinburgh, despite that both companies do seem to be doing well now that both have settled with their current services and found what works and what doesn’t

One thought I’ve had for quite a while is how good loadings does the X18 get from Armadale? With it having a train service to Edinburgh I’ve often wondered whether the X18 would be better following the 26/26A route between Whitburn and Bathgate to give a faster service to Edinburgh for Whitburn.

 

[VioletEclipse]

The city crests that are on the XLBs are a nice touch, I assume that they add a bit to the maintenance costs and hence aren't on any more recent buses. Surely the extra maintenance cost for the crests is very small altogether? Although I understand that they're unnecessary despite the historical significance.

 

[Bus9120UK]

The city crests that are on the XLBs are a nice touch, I assume that they add a bit to the maintenance costs and hence aren't on any more recent buses. Surely the extra maintenance cost for the crests is very small altogether? Although I understand that they're unnecessary despite the historical significance.

I actually am not a keen fan of them and much prefer the recent deliveries not having them.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

How about the unused tram stop or South St Andrew Street?

From what I heard the trams are now running back to St Andrews Square as of today, if only they opened Waverly Bridge again so the tour buses and airlink can return to their original terminuses. the bus stop outside Tk Maxx is an awkward place to put a bus terminus, I thought it would be a temporary situation but here we are months later.

the point I was edging at was the situation regarding driver shortages as First West Lothian is running essentially two thirds of a full service at the moment with several last minute cancellations of services.

I‘m guessing there’s no chance of First bringing back the X23? even though the X28 does it’s job connecting Deans to Edinburgh (sighthill)

I find it very interesting how the West Lothian bus travel has changed over the past 4 years. The only real aspect in which one operator seems to do better than the other is the Edinburgh routes. The X18/27/28 typical have better loadings than the X22/24/25 however that largely comes down to the fact people in Sighthill/Longstone seem aware of the X27/28 and see it as the fast bus to town like people in Clovenstone and Wester Hailes see the 30 and the fact the X27/28 allow for onward travel in Edinburgh, despite that both companies do seem to be doing well now that both have settled with their current services and found what works and what doesn’t

That’s what I’ve been saying ever since LCB extended to West Lothian! even though the Example used was the route within the city such as West Approach Road rather than Gorgie was a genius move to speed up journeys!

While LCB’s future is uncertain in terms of expansion, I still hold out that one day Kirkliston will get a second chance, and Fauldhouse a third chance? In all fairness if First withdrew from Fauldhouse for whatever reason I’m sure Lothian would bring back the 281 or extend the 276 in a heartbeat, or even both!

Now.. when is East Lothian getting a brand new bus service? X13 where are you?

 

[Busman757]

From what I heard the trams are now running back to St Andrews Square as of today, if only they opened Waverly Bridge again so the tour buses and airlink can return to their original terminuses. the bus stop outside Tk Maxx is an awkward place to put a bus terminus, I thought it would be a temporary situation but here we are months later.



I‘m guessing there’s no chance of First bringing back the X23? even though the X28 does it’s job connecting Deans to Edinburgh (sighthill)




That’s what I’ve been saying ever since LCB extended to West Lothian! even though the Example used was the route within the city such as West Approach Road rather than Gorgie was a genius move to speed up journeys!

While LCB’s future is uncertain in terms of expansion, I still hold out that one day Kirkliston will get a second chance, and Fauldhouse a third chance? In all fairness if First withdrew from Fauldhouse for whatever reason I’m sure Lothian would bring back the 281 or extend the 276 in a heartbeat, or even both!

Now.. when is East Lothian getting a brand new bus service? X13 where are you?

I stay in Kirkliston and still say they don’t deserve to have it back. They had their chance and refused to use it!