Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

One thing I would like to happen at some point is a later 200 departure from the Airport at around 1/1:30am

The recent earlier journey at 3:05 towards the Airport usually has a fair few passengers on.

I think it would be popular, especially with lots of flights landing around midnight.

So basically make the Skylinks 24 hours a day? That seems possible, just needs the staffing to do it.

 

[Graham Alexand]

On another topic (Lothian related). I was wondering if anyone knows if the Enviro 400XLBs all have the same engine?

The reason I ask is that they don’t all have the same engine sound when sat idle at the stops and some even sound different when they are moving.

They're all Volvo B8Ls with a ZF ecolife transmission (or gearbox).

That'll probably come down to the fact no two buses are the same, some may have a more prominent transmission and some will most likely have a louder/ quieter engine.

 

[stevenedin]

They're all Volvo B8Ls with a ZF ecolife transmission (or gearbox).

That'll probably come down to the fact no two buses are the same, some may have a more prominent transmission and some will most likely have a louder/ quieter engine.

Thanks

 

[Scotrail314209]

So basically make the Skylinks 24 hours a day? That seems possible, just needs the staffing to do it.

I think it’d be possible on both the 200 and 400, as to get across the city from the airport after midnight requires two buses or expensive taxis.

It’d go down well, especially in peak summer imo.

 

[Stan Drews]

Is the 90 day notice no longer needed for cancellation of bus services? Or are the 280 and 276 being suspended under covid regulations then cancelled at a later date like the X38 was?

There has never been a 90 day notice period for cancellations - pre or post covid.
The normal registration process is 70 days. Initially operators send the details to the relevant local authorities, before finally submitting to the Office of the Traffic Commissioner at no less than 42 days.
In Scotland, you have to operate any new or varied service for a minimum of 90 days, before making a further change or cancelling the service. This may be where you’ve got the 90 days from?
The alterations to the registration process which were available to operators during the pandemic, were removed earlier this year.

 

[ScotRail158725]

So basically make the Skylinks 24 hours a day? That seems possible, just needs the staffing to do it.

An overnight 400 would definitely work in my opinion. Can’t comment on the 200 but the 400 operating 24 hours is definitely viable

 

[TheEastCoaster]

In regards to the LCB situation I have yet to comment my two cents on the situation but here we go..

Yes a risk was taken and I know the words ”Told you so“ have been thrown about the thread but let’s not gloat about it and think about how damaging this could be to the Drivers of LCB who probably don’t want to fear losing their job because everyone is playing predictions on when Lothian will strike out of West Lothian.. honestly, you can like LCB or not, it’s your opinion but just remember to be considerate!

Anyway as for the loss of the 276 & 280.. i would have thought the 276 would be scrapped eventually, but the 280 was a big surprise. I get right now it’s a troubling time and they want to put all their resources on the city routes which make up most of the revenue. I say fair enough, but taking the X27 out of Whitburn was quite a surprise, and I guess this leaves McGill's with West Calder, Seafield and Blackridge now. I personally would have thought maybe it would be worth extending the X27 or X28 into Blackridge to cover the link but I guess LCB are too scared to take any risks right now.

I can see the link between Broxburn and Livingston disappearing being an issue in the long run but who knows.. maybe this will be resolved in the new year, but let’s hope these extra resources on the city routes provide some good news in the long run, let’s try and remain hopeful!

 

[Scotrail314209]

An overnight 400 would definitely work in my opinion. Can’t comment on the 200 but the 400 operating 24 hours is definitely viable

There’s always a lot of people on the first departure from Ocean Terminal, and a handful get on in Clermiston too.

It’s good for people working at the airport; if there was no earlier bus it would be two buses or a taxi.

It’d also save people heading home to the likes of Leith from having to go through the City Centre

 

[tbtc]

That seems a reasonable approach, McGills have been steadily retreating in the west (e.g. no more buses from Paisley to Partick, once a long established Western / Clydeside route) so why not try to force their hand here?

McGills have three options:

1. Make some cuts permanent, maybe officially drop the “network” down to 90% of what they are promising to run

2. Fully restored West Lothian (Inc 20/63 etc which might cost a few quid, but maybe if drivers are all queuing up to operate buses in a slightly different green then it’ll be easy for them ?)

3. Get suckered into covering the kind of “Pumpherston to Whitburn” links, maybe run Skylink 24/7, could be v expensive

They came into West Lothian expecting it to be a repeat of East Lothian. It never worked out like that, though and now they are basically giving up

So your criticism is that Lothian assumed it’d be Like the simple/ quick East Lothian bus war, which took over thirty years to conclude, and failed to spot Covid?

What a bunch of losers, eh

It is probably their last shot at it to be honest. They will have seen McGill’s trialling electric buses etc and probably thought that they won’t be able to invest to compete

My view is that Lothian have been waiting on the electric market to mature, just like they were late adopters off low floor vehicles (before embracing them)

Many perils of being an early adaptor

Meanwhile we need to see how the trams to leith work out, that might feed demand for more light rail

The old saying "we told you so" really does come to mind, ( lets not get silly by saying people are pro this or anti that) It's the fact people refused to believe the warnings which caused all the trouble in the first place. We highlighted the issues Lothian created for itself and never resolved

Public transport enthusiasts are always moaning about changes, warning of doom/gloom, it’s what they do (e.g. look at the Stagecoach Fife thread where people are wanting the best of both worlds, complaining about changes but without suggesting how to avoid them

I still think Lothian should go for the X40 tender when it comes up next year

It’s a tendered route, nothing stopping them starting it on a commercial basis before the end of 2022 (other than the tiny passenger numbers and the fact that you’re running a LONG way for the sake of essentially one stop at the Infirmary which will be hard to keep time to)

I wouldn’t be surprised if they did submit a bid, but if it were a busy route then it wouldn’t be needing a bid

I don't think this service change is the start of Lothian "giving up" in West Lothian.
Someone mentioned a few days ago that they thought there would be a few more service changes both with Lothian and with McGill's, until services reached an equilibrium; I see this service change as the start of that. Lothian consolidating their services as Edinburgh via Corstorphine/Broxburn/Bathgate/Armadale to Whitburn, and Edinburgh via Sighthill/Calders/Livingston to Bathgate. This leaves the door open for McGill's to take Edinburgh via Corstorphine/Broxburn/Livingston to Whitburn or Bathgate/Armadale/Blackridge, and Edinburgh via Sighthill/Calders/Livingston/West Calder/Loganlea, plus local services as they see fit.

Send sensible analysis, it gives McGills an “off ramp” whilst allowing Lothian to make further concessions (e.g. no longer running west of Bathgate) to encourage

It’s clear the Livingston depot will be closing and sold on. They won’t continue to operate services that literally pass Longstone and Central out of Livingston. Sad times for all the hard work the drivers have put in and it’s rather disappointing to see how quickly they have hit the panic button. The 276/280 are busy routes. This is a cost cutting exercise and I wouldn’t be surprised if McGill don’t get first refusal on the depot given theirs is leased…

So the 276/280 ARE busy then?

Given the demographic charges in/around Edinburgh, there’s surely an argument for closing Central/ Longstone and running services from Herriot Watt/ Airport/ Gyle and the various new housing estates with bricks from Newbridge

Or do you think that Lothian closed North Berwick and Musselburgh to shots duplication with East Lothian services that passed near to Marine?

 

[overthewater]

Public transport enthusiasts are always moaning about changes, warning of doom/gloom, it’s what they do (e.g. look at the Stagecoach Fife thread where people are wanting the best of both worlds, complaining about changes but without suggesting how to avoid them

Even with out Covid, some issues would still be around. Lothian has just proven, you can have the best buses, have a great reputation and great drivers etc etc but there aren't worth jack if the ticket and routes are not good enough.
Remember people said on the social media pages the weekly tickets weren't good enough and because of that First managed to cling on to passengers within the west Lothian area. What else could be the reason? Alot of passengers moaned big time about First, so why didn't all the passengers run to LCB?

It's not surprising Lothian are cutting back now with the Covid Grant money finally disappearing.

People have every right to moan about service changes especial if they have NOT been explained fully.

 

[mb88]

Hopefully with the 276 and 280 going the remaining services will have their timings amended to a more sensible level which will go a long way to improving their reliability. The X27 and X28 are hopelessly under timed particularly east of Livingston, similarly the X18 west of Dechmont.

Bus companies are being forced into very difficult decisions at the moment due to the driver shortage, and surely it makes more sense to concentrate on your core services rather than try and operate everything when you don’t have the resources to do so?

 

[stevenedin]

Even with out Covid, some issues would still be around. Lothian has just proven, you can have the best buses, have a great reputation and great drivers etc etc but there aren't worth jack if the ticket and routes are not good enough.
Remember people said on the social media pages the weekly tickets weren't good enough and because of that First managed to cling on to passengers within the west Lothian area. What else could be the reason? Alot of passengers moaned big time about First, so why didn't all the passengers run to LCB?

It's not surprising Lothian are cutting back now with the Covid Grant money finally disappearing.

People have every right to moan about service changes especial if they have NOT been explained fully.

I’ve always thought it was strange that Lothian Country never offered monthly tickets and just did bundles. They could’ve gained many more passengers if they had adopted something like this and possibly have even pushed First out when they were around.

 

[overthewater]

I’ve always thought it was strange that Lothian Country never offered monthly tickets and just did bundles. They could’ve gained many more passengers if they had adopted something like this and possibly have even pushed First out when they were around.

I do still believe if Lothian had offered this, it would have had a fighting chance. It become clear there were not winning in January 2019, when first didn't roll over. Green Arrow was also just poorly execute, Bathgate went from nowhere to nowhere for the same price as Scotrail.

The word that best describes this whole event "Disappointment" at times it just felt convoluted, and it wouldn't have taken much to fix this. I do believe X18, X27 and X28 will NOT be gone within the year, I think both services will remain moving forward.

 

[ScotRail158725]

The word that best describes this whole event "Disappointment" at times it just felt convoluted, and it wouldn't have taken much to fix this. I do believe X18, X27 and X28 will NOT be gone within the year, I think both services will remain moving forward.

The X18, X27 and X28 are busy routes throughout the whole day and typically carry more than the McGills counterparts, particularly the Edinburgh-Livingston side, but the accounts for these are hidden in the Lothian accounts so we’ll never actually see how they do and how Lothian Country does on the whole but obviously if they’re making these changes its either LC is running at a loss or this is a cheap way out with the amounts of cancellations at LC and with the new competition

 

[overthewater]

The 276 was just a black hole. The route between the prison and Bathgate wasn't even subsidised by the council. They were fed up wasting so much money on it, that gives you a clue. Wester Inch is funny one but I think when they forced the passengers onto the 276 that just chased away any remaining Livingston passengers. I just can't see McGills replacing 276, or serve Wester Inch or Dedridge west.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I think that the LCB fleet may become a B5LH/Ex-London fleet by the end of the year, 181 might go to ECB because she has just been painted although 942 got 2 liveries in the space of less than a month!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I think that the LCB fleet may become a B5LH/Ex-London fleet by the end of the year, 181 might go to ECB because she has just been painted although 942 got 2 liveries in the space of less than a month!

ECB already have more buses than they probably need so I wouldn’t expect anything extra to join without others leaving.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

ECB already have more buses than they probably need so I wouldn’t expect anything extra to join without others leaving.

I expect some of those spare Eclipses to leave that hasn't been in service in over a year in turn for 181, what happens to them is unknown.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I expect some of those spare Eclipses to leave that hasn't been in service in over a year in turn for 181, what happens to them is unknown.

181 will probably get treated the same way as 176-180, 182-190. It’s still a 13 plate Eclipse2 at the end of the day.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

181 will probably get treated the same way as 176-180, 182-190. It’s still a 13 plate Eclipse2 at the end of the day.

I see what you are saying but if 181 were to go then I reckon that a few more would as well (e.g. 181-184?) Maybe just to replace all of the 2 been off seeing another 62 plates to move with 181? Just throwing suggestions out there, It does still remain likely she'll join the city fleet. This batch have had lots of movements in their days!

 

[scosutsut]

Time for a curveball opinion. I'm an enthusiast, who doesn't work in the industry but like to think I look at a lot of these things through a different lens to many.

I think there has been a lot of dice throwing going on since Lothian first unveiled Lothian Country Buses (LCB.)

Across all sides (First/LCB/McGills) for all the new and old owners, new routes, changed routes, rebranded routes, cancelled routes, new brands and killed off brands, vehicle changes, livery changes and more - there has been plenty of face-palming, but amongst it all I believe there have only been two truly masterstroke moves.

The first I've mentioned before was Bright Bus Tours. Absolute, absolute genius. Possibly the only brilliant thing I've ever seen First's name on, ever. Basically look down the sofa for a few coins, use those to put something together overnight, and use that to punch your rival really hard right in the crown jewels, and have enough change left over to get a kebab on the way home afterwards. Absolute genius.

I suspect in time, LCBs changes here might be seen as the next such moment. Odd narrative, you may say, but let me elaborate on my thinking.

One, like many around the country, both operators are struggling to run full services due to driver shortages, which attracts negative attention and upsets your customer base. LCB should, I assume, be on better footing with this, turning the heat of public attention on McGills.

Two, pulling what are in popular opinion on here unprofitable routes from your books, make you are more profitable business. This is a good thing to any business.

Three, where an operator pulls out an area, leaving only one - they have a key advantage. People will grumble a little bit, then move on. But the surviving rival is now "stuck" with the area. If they try and pull out they will get a lot more negative attention, the usual Facebook pitchfork marches, sound bites from local councillors etc - so in doing this they've saddled their rival with the areas they don't want. Burdening your rival this way also hinders their capacity to further attack you. Bonus points.

Four, LCB, if they have eyes and ears at least, know they don't compete on tickets, and have never addressed that. However where that is now an advantage to them is they aren't worrying about losing customers that use multiple services because of a ticket offer, so getting rid of the routes that they are is unlikely to affect passenger numbers on the ones they are keeping.

Five, as we all know McGills have a LOT of problems to sort within its new purchase, and even I'm a little surprised at how little visible progress they've made. Come on guys, some brand stickers wouldn't have been hard. LCB doing this now is super smart. Cutting the PVR, along with sticking in some newer fleet (by the look of it) should let them really aggressively roll out their new identity whilst McGills is still getting round to taking the First stickers off things.

In short, in a short space of time you've got a well presented, lean, well staffed and profitable network whilst your rival is struggling with all those aspects.

I think it's really, really smart and it's kicks the ball firmly into McGills court - "your move guys" - but as I said earlier, I think they've got their hands full and don't think they'll be able to respond for some time - letting LCB dig in.

It's that, or I'm totally, totally wrong and this is simply part one of a two-part complete retreat by Lothian!

 

[LothianBusesPh]

It's a good concept that you've made up there, I can't really comment on it that much but I do think that some of the points you have mentioned are pointing in your conclusion.

LCB is staying consistent (for the most part at least,) and then you've got McGill's taking over from First Bus which so far has been more of a disaster than Trump running America. (Excuse the Politics reference.)

 

[Blindtraveler]

There is a lot to be said for this for sure

 

[LothianBusesPh]

There is a lot to be said for this for sure

We'll just have to see how it pans out!

 

[exeter 50044]

from what i have heard Livington depot is 29 drivers short, and some are in the process of leaving which could the reason.

you guys may disagree with this but would the passing of the 43 route to Lothian bet the best thing for it.

 

[stevenedin]

from what i have heard Livington depot is 29 drivers short, and some are in the process of leaving which could the reason.

you guys may disagree with this but would the passing of the 43 route to Lothian bet the best thing for it.

I 100% agree with it about the 43. It should be run from Central under Lothian. After all it doesn’t even leave Edinburgh so it shouldn’t be considered a “country” bus.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I 100% agree with it about the 43. It should be run from Central under Lothian. After all it doesn’t even leave Edinburgh so it shouldn’t be considered a “country” bus.

The whole new Lothian Country brand at the time in 2017 was for the 43, but I agree now it has been used for the West Lothian expansions it should perhaps become a city bus again. I am not sure if Central have the drivers to drive it alongside their existing routes, though.

 

[eh1]

Last night there was a number of LCB X18/27/28 routes missing, waiting times over an hour in some cases. For those of you suggesting the 43 returns to Central, remember that LB still has its shortfalls in driver numbers at each garage too. With an extra two, maybe more training buses and more and more out every day hopefully we will see the numbers begin to rise again.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Now this might sound crazy, but could Longstone run the 43? I’m just thinking that the 43 already has dead mileage from Deans to Scotstoun, so would running it from Longstone make it any worse? I just think if it’s run from Central you’ll always have 3 or 4 fresh air runs in each direction.

On another point I’m still hopeful we’ll see McGill’s and Lothian work together to have a combined network that suits everyone, however unlikely that is.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Now this might sound crazy, but could Longstone run the 43? I’m just thinking that the 43 already has dead mileage from Deans to Scotstoun, so would running it from Longstone make it any worse? I just think if it’s run from Central you’ll always have 3 or 4 fresh air runs in each direction.

On another point I’m still hopeful we’ll see McGill’s and Lothian work together to have a combined network that suits everyone, however unlikely that is.

Would need shuttle vans to somewhere daft so can't see that happening myself.

Changeovers at Drumsheugh Place with Central drivers more likely if it was ever to go back go city. Could certainly use XLBs on some journeys, shame city can't operate a few rush journeys to boost capacity.