Lucky escape for track workers Shrewsbury

[bronzeonion]

All very lucky for those involved!

Out of interest, can someone remind me if there are any crashworthiness standards for maintenance trolleys such as the one involved in this incident? Whilst the incident was clearly extremely unfortunate & also probably fairly rare, I'd imagine the design of the trolley could help prevent a serious derailment or damage to the leading cab of a colliding train.

Are you joking?

 

[Tomnick]

You don't get much choice in the matter! If P-Way need the trolley in that place you'll need to find a way of getting it there. The normal way of achieving this is to negotiate a time to push the trolley into position on the T3 protected line between running trains on the open line. Once in position, they will place it on pads and you continue to run trains until they are ready to come off and then repeat the process.

This is nearly always on overnight possessions where there are decent gaps between services. If it really can't be achieved to get the trolley into position then this should have brought up in the planning meetings prior to the night and either another way found to get the materials etc to site, or the job postponed until an all lines T3 is taken.

Sorry, didn't really say what I wanted to say! If it's on pads and they can give an assurance that it won't occupy anything that might cause a problem. If there's a chance that something might drop the track and put back on an open line (even if the trolley's on pads, something else might!), then - as you say - a suitable margin needs to be found. Happily not a problem at any of my boxes anyway!

 

[edwin_m]

Are measuring trolleys still allowed in a red zone? Many years ago (1988) as part of my BR training I got taken out on a geometry measuring trolley job just south of Stoke Tunnel where we had to get outselves and the trolley off pretty sharpish when a HST approached at 100+. I think it needed two of us to lift the trolley, because of its bulk rather than its weight, and I don't know what we'd have done if there hadn't been a clear bit of the cutting alongside to dump it onto.

 

[tsr]

Are you joking?

I'm not sure why on earth you'd think that. I asked on the off-chance as I wasn't quite sure if there were any stipulated ways to ensure that a trolley presents as low a risk as possible, should an impact occur. This being a fairly rare (AFAIK) incident, I appreciate it probably isn't worth trying to add such protection & lessen the usability of the things.

Sometimes, even the smallest of mitigating features might provide a little help under accident conditions - perhaps such as the brakes being designed to disintegrate, allowing the trolley to slide as far as it can & take a little of the impact that way, rather than jamming down and compressing onto the rails, should something hit it at applicable speeds. That said, I agree that things like this may be impractical and add too much complexity to what should usually be a perfectly safe device.

 

[merlodlliw]

I believe a possession was booked from 2359 after the passage of this train.

A colleague was chatting to a NR person yesterday,it appears you are correct.

 

[DarloRich]

yawn. it was established in post 1 there were no injuries and certainly no deaths.

So that makes it all ok then doesn’t it! :roll: I mean lets not worry about how these people came to be in the path of a speeding train because they weren’t hurt. As long as the train is ok that is all that matters.

 

[455driver]

So that makes it all ok then doesn’t it! :roll: I mean lets not worry about how these people came to be in the path of a speeding train because they weren’t hurt. As long as the train is ok that is all that matters.

What is your proof that the train was speeding?
That is a very serious allegation!

 

[YorkshireBear]

What is your proof that the train was speeding?
That is a very serious allegation!

I think he may mean it was going at speed, rather than exceeding the limit. Can't sense if the face means your just stirring things or not or are being serious. :P

 

[455driver]

He was making a point about posters caring more about the train than the people involved (even though it was established that everyone was uninjured) and then posts about speeding trains!

I read a speeding train as a train which is going faster than it should be, the fact that wasnt what he meant is irrelevant to what was actually posted.

If he doesnt want people pulling him up then he should be more careful what he posts, not difficult.

I will take my 'pedant' head off now and stick my 'tomorrow is my day off and I am going to have a pint or 3' head on!

Maybe a at the bottom of that post would have helped.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

'Speeding Train' is a trick often used by newspapers to add more 'shock' to their nothing story. I'm not sure it works to be honest, though its a rather lazy phrase to use in my opinion.

I do understand the point though that a few posters need perspective, after that poor lady died at Moreton-on-Lugg somebody wrote "damn I needed that unit for haulage". :roll:

 

[Tomnick]

Are measuring trolleys still allowed in a red zone? Many years ago (1988) as part of my BR training I got taken out on a geometry measuring trolley job just south of Stoke Tunnel where we had to get outselves and the trolley off pretty sharpish when a HST approached at 100+. I think it needed two of us to lift the trolley, because of its bulk rather than its weight, and I don't know what we'd have done if there hadn't been a clear bit of the cutting alongside to dump it onto.

I can't give a definitive answer, but I very much doubt it! As little as possible is done red zone nowadays (even patrolling a dead straight 15mph goods line!), and in any case a trolley of any sort would probably (sensibly!) be considered to affect the safety of the line.

 

[carriageline]

For the record, I think trolley wheels are generally too small to operate track circuits,

Hope everything is alright for all those involved! Must be one of the worse things that happens for drivers and maintenance staff alike.

Without speculating, T3/LB irregularities should not be happening in this day and age, neither are 'difficult' to implement properly.

 

[455driver]

What has the size of the wheels got to do with operating track circuits?

 

[Crossover]

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but if a trolley is on a track in a TC area, why is having it detected an issue? Surely if there is a trolley on the line, the last thing one wants is for a train to get cleared to come along the same track?

 

[Tomnick]

Trolleys certainly do operate track circuits (from experience, and much to the frustration of the gang who wanted me to swing a set of points to pass their trolley, which was occupying the track circuit over said points), but can't be relied upon to do so. Unfortunately, plenty can go wrong with T3s and LBs - it's not difficult to do it properly, but it's equally not difficult to get something terribly wrong!

 

[jon91]

For the record, I think trolley wheels are generally too small to operate track circuits.

If trolley wheels are too small then track circuit clips must work by magic...

 

[edwin_m]

What has the size of the wheels got to do with operating track circuits?

A smaller wheel would mean a smaller contact area so more likely that a bit of contamination would block the current. The low weight of the trolley means less force to dislodge any contamination. And possibly if the trolley is unsprung wheels at opposite corners could lift off the track entirely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If trolley wheels are too small then track circuit clips must work by magic...

A track circuit clip is forced onto the rail and this action should rub any contamination off the contact area.

 

[carriageline]

What has the size of the wheels got to do with operating track circuits?

There's a group standard somewhere that says wheel size on things that must activate track circuits must be a above a certain diameter, I'll dig it out.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but if a trolley is on a track in a TC area, why is having it detected an issue? Surely if there is a trolley on the line, the last thing one wants is for a train to get cleared to come along the same track?

As I explained, in complex station areas then complete T3s are not always taken. You may have a T3 on Platforms 1-4 but 5-8 are open. In certain circumstances, if a trolley operates a track circuit within the T3, the interlocking thinks there is a runaway, a places a signal to danger on the open line possibly giving a driver a reversion. Trolleys do not reliably occupy TCs, but they do occupy them quite often.

 

[455driver]

There's a group standard somewhere that says wheel size on things that must activate track circuits must be a above a certain diameter, I'll dig it out.

na dont bother, it was the way it is assumed that a small wheel wont operate track circuits at all rather than they might not operate track circuits.

Anyone remember the shunters trucks that had to be attached to 03s etc because the 03s (despite their quite large wheels) couldnt be guaranteed to operate the track circuits!

 

[fsmr]

It is purely speculative, but if as has been suggested on here that the possession was due to implement after the passage of the Manchester service, then it is not inconceivable the trolley was placed on the track just prior to the trains arrival , thus making (depending on section lengths and signal placement) any track circuit protection from trolley wheels or supplementary clips useless at that point. All will be clear in a years time
Busy old time for the RAIB with some complex investigations going on

It will have certainly sharpened up focus of the dangers on all those involved

 

[455driver]

Apparently there are no conventional track circuits at this location, it is axle counters so the trolley being on the rails any length of time before the train arrived wouldnt have made any difference!

 

[PHILIPE]

As usual, we have a lot of speculation which could be allowed to cloud the real cause. The answer will not be revealed until the RAIB Report.

 

[fsmr]

Apparently there are no conventional track circuits at this location, it is axle counters so the trolley being on the rails any length of time before the train arrived wouldnt have made any difference!

If that is indeed the case, then expect that to be a feature then in any subsequent report. not knowing the area I wouldn't know what detection is used but it is an inherent safety feature of track circuits over treadles in cases like this or in many historical derailments preventing further accidents

 

[455driver]

That (and detecting broken rails) is a nice additional benefit of track circuits but as that isnt the main reason for them then its basically tough that axle counters et al cannot do the same.

Axle counters are the future so get used to it!

 

[craigybagel]

I did point out well before most of the debate about track circuits that there weren't any in this area but oh well.......

It is, as 455 driver says, Axle counters. It was AB until last Autumn when it somewhat belatedly went over to Axle counters, controlled from Cardiff.

 

[merlodlliw]

Has its on the net, this item appeared in this weeks North Wales Rail newsboard,I am putting it up for interest.
It is written by Charlie Hume. link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

Dangerous 'mishap' near Hadnall

175 113, forming the 22:36 Manchester Piccadilly - Shrewsbury of 16 January, had left Manchester a few minutes late and was still a few minutes 'down' when it departed from Wem at 23:49, with (it is reported) just one passenger still on board. However, before reaching its final destination it ran into a track workers' trolley, whose operatives had run clear when they saw the train approaching.

A Police spokesman wrote: 'British Transport Police were called on Friday following a report that a rail trolley had been struck by a train near Station Road in Hadnall, Shrewsbury. BTP officers attended the incident, which was reported at 12.25am, alongside colleagues from West Mercia Police and West Midlands Ambulance service. The train ... is understood to have struck the rail trolley which contained engineering equipment that was being used by rail staff working on the tracks in the location. One passenger was on board at the time and there are no reports of any injuries to them or the driver of the service, who was treated for shock. Three men, who were working on the tracks at the time, managed to move out of the way and were uninjured but have been left extremely shaken. The train remained upright but has been badly damaged by the trolley, which was lodged underneath it. Officers will now be working to establish the circumstances surrounding the collision.'

The person in charge of entering 'delay attributions' to the railway's information systems chose to use code 'IY' which is officially described as 'Mishap - Network Rail causes' which seems to be something of an understatement of a potentially fatal event. How the 'mishap' was allowed to occur we cannot say: clearly there was a big misunderstanding at some point; the Rail Accident Investigation Board has been informed, but has not made any public statement at the time of writing. Last year the intermediate signalboxes on the Crewe - Shrewsbury line were closed and control of the signalling transferred to Cardiff signalling centre. It will be interesting to see whether this change turns out to have had any bearing on the incident.

 

[DarloRich]

What is your proof that the train was speeding?
That is a very serious allegation!

I never know when you are on the wind up! I mean going at a rapid, but legal, speed rather than exceeding the speed limit
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be honest I am more concerned about how systems of management and communication may have failed to such an extent that 2/3/4 people were put in an extremely dangerous position that came very close to meaning those people didn’t go home at the end of their shift.

That fact that there was no physical injury this time isn’t something to celebrate, nor should we dismiss the potential consequences of this situation!

 

[Tomnick]

That's the important point for me too. All this talk of trolleys occupying track circuits is, I think, rather missing the point. It could just as well have been a gang working without a trolley, or a crane fouling the line, or heavy equipment being carried across the line - none of which would drop a track circuit even if one was provided. It's far better to find out the root cause of the incident and put the effort into preventing a repeat at that level.

 

[0B00]

RAIB have a link to the investigation here: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/140116_bridgeway.cfm