Manchester Airport Express???

[PR1Berske]

With the additional tram services coming to Didsbury and the Airport, it really should be asked if there should be LESS trains to the Airport, not MORE.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

With the additional tram services coming to Didsbury and the Airport, it really should be asked if there should be LESS trains to the Airport, not MORE.

That wouldn't prove very useful for residents of Mauldeth Rd, Burnage, Gatley and Heald Green though, would it?

 

[PR1Berske]

You make a fair point. I should have preceded that post with something like "Were I a member of TfGM, my thinking would be...."

 

[CosherB]

And
2tph Northern via Stockport
1tph ATW via Stockport
1tph VT via Stockport
And any extras XC might care to throw in occasionally...

Via the Styal line? That's a neat trick! :roll:

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Via the Styal line? That's a neat trick! :roll:

must be when there is a diversion lol

 

[tbtc]

We always seem to be delayed at the Airport waiting TPE services to enter the station, gets to be a joke sometimes as we can never make up the time, between Picc and The Airport is just too congested and no one has any Leeway to make up time.

I think that part of the problem is that, as so many areas have direct Manchester Airport services then the Airport line from Manchester gets impacted on by delays in Newcastle/ Cleethorpes/ Barrow/ Glasgow etc.

Having a relatively "self contained" service to the Airport line would stop these delays "crossbreeding" from one area to another.

 

[pemma]

It'd also mean we don't have the daft situation where places like Blackpool/Southport see one of their Manchester trains depart from Victoria whilst the other departs from Piccadilly, which would give people a much more consistent service.

Departures from both Victoria and Piccadilly for the same destination has nothing to do with direct Airport services.

Southport has had both Piccadilly and Victoria links since before the Airport railway station opened.

Blackpool only has a Victoria link because Northern decided to move their Blackpool service from Piccadilly to Victoria. It always used to be 2 trains per hour from Piccadilly and a couple of extra services per day from Victoria. In my opinion that was the wrong decision as many Blackpool passengers used to change at Stockport.

 

[Nym]

It would prevent crossbleeding etc, but it would cut the number of airport passengers, simple as.

When the cord comes into play in ?2018 all Airport services will leave via platform 13 or 14, and it would be easyer to catch a service from Victoria than ever before, same with Oxford Road, so 'locals' would have more choice for their more local station, and lugging suitcases is also set to be easyer, as in with the Pt15/16 plans is improved access to 13 - 16 at Piccadilly, hopfully a smoothed walkway from where Costa currently is, moving walkways and the like as is now, and better stair and lift access to 13/14 when refurbished, as there will be from the start for 15/16.

Depends on where HS2 want to plonk their station too (that I think should be opened for stage 1 of HS2), get the Manchester Approaches done as soon as possible, they can then take pressure of the Stockport viaduct...

If it ends up at Mayfeild, the walk to the through platforms (13 - 16, could become 16 - 19, each with A&B, if the car park becomes platforms again) won't be so far, and I'd suspect there would be a 2nd set of entrances and drop off points, and possibly even a 3rd vehicle access onto the A635 just before the Mancunian Way.
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Departures from both Victoria and Piccadilly for the same destination has nothing to do with direct Airport services.

Southport has had both Piccadilly and Victoria links since before the Airport railway station opened.

Blackpool only has a Victoria link because Northern decided to move their Blackpool service from Piccadilly to Victoria. It always used to be 2 trains per hour from Piccadilly and a couple of extra services per day from Victoria. In my opinion that was the wrong decision as many Blackpool passengers used to change at Stockport.

And nothing used to go through Bolton or Atherton to anywhere from the airport until the Windsor Link opened...

Oh, and preventing the 'crossbleeding' of delays could be acheived with the extra platforms over Fairfeild St, and possibly the addition of two more tracks between Piccadilly and Slade Lane, keeping the Airport line seperate all the way to Piccadilly.
If Slade Ln is then grade separated, many more paths become available and we'd be running out of Platforms instead.

 

[tbtc]

Departures from both Victoria and Piccadilly for the same destination has nothing to do with direct Airport services

...but getting away from this obsession with everywhere needing a direct Airport link would allow services to be rationalised around Manchester, so just one main station for services through Chorley, just one main station for services to Wigan Wallgate...

It would prevent crossbleeding etc, but it would cut the number of airport passengers, simple as

I accept that it would cut the number of airport passengers, but I think that the empty seats on the twenty coaches an hour to/from the Airport suggest that its more important to concentrate on the "day to day"/ "week to week" demand of people for services into Manchester, rather than focussing on those annual trips to the Airport that people make with luggage.

The tail is wagging the dog.

When the cord comes into play in ?2018 all Airport services will leave via platform 13 or 14

Even the Sheffield service?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That wouldn't prove very useful for residents of Mauldeth Rd, Burnage, Gatley and Heald Green though, would it?

You mke a very good point here, as the line itself is a heavily used South Manchester commuter line in its own right that has seen much upgraded station infrastructure over the last few years.

 

[bluenoxid]

Even the Sheffield service?

This is one of the things that gets me. Will the EMT service and the MIA - Hope Valley service transfer through Vic?

Man Air - Man Picc needs a reliable and good quality connect service as well as more fast services from other destinations across the North.

 

[Nym]

Even the Sheffield service?

Yes...

And when everything is running to 13/14 the airport is also a convenient place to terminate all of these services, rather than in 13/14 in Piccadilly...

 

[tbtc]

Yes...

And when everything is running to 13/14 the airport is also a convenient place to terminate all of these services, rather than in 13/14 in Piccadilly...

So, what, the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport will run via Stockport, Victoria, Oxford Road and Piccadilly to the Airport?

(whilst the Norwich - Liverpool service runs direct from Stockport to Piccadilly?)

 

[Nym]

No, it was planned to run via New Mills, Ashburys, Philips Park Jcns, Victoria, Oxford Road, Piccadilly, Airport, and the Norwich Liverpool the same way but on to Liverpool via Chat Moss from Victoria. (Was in the Northern Hub plans I read) and the additional service(s) would run via Stockport.

Although New Mills, Guide Bridge, Ashton Moss (new track needed), Victoria would be quicker, and proberbly as quick as getting into Piccadilly if pathed well.

 

[WestCoast]

On a simple level, I think you've got to put this in context. Many people want to travel directly to the airport, they want a 'one seat service' (as 185 mentioned) with their (often bulky and numerous) pieces of luggage. I know the feeling after an 11 hour journey! To make the routes highly competitive against the car and parking (which Manchester Airport has so much of!), they are direct. That's a major selling point for TPE.

Going further, there are capacity issues and perhaps it would benefit the Manchester local services if the services didn't go to the airport. When the tram arrives, then might be the time to review the current service offering. However, I would resist a complete conversion to a shuttle.

 

[eastwestdivide]

A few stats might shed some light on demand for through services:
Station statistics:
For the year 2009/10 Manchester Airport station usage = 2.6 million (Piccadilly 19 million)
(according to the rail regulator, http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529)

and airport statistics
18 million passenger throughput, 70% of whom travel from outside Greater Manchester.
Of the 18 million,
60% use a taxi or get a lift
25% park and fly
10% use the train
3% use buses and coaches
(according to the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport at http://www.ciltuk.org.uk/download_files/gmg076bob.pdf)

So, about 1.8 million (10% of the 18 million) of the 2.6 million using the station would be air passengers.

 

[Nym]

Well, perhaps when TPE gets more electrified, the stopping services can again be provided by TPE units, rather than Northern, saving northern a couple of diagrams.

And of course, cut the Crewe - Manchester Airport - Manchester service back to the Airport and double service frequency.

 

[sittingnev]

Just out of interest, whilst on the subject of trains to MIA.
What would be wrong with creating a link from the stockport line over to MIA???
This could move trains from yorkshire, direct to the airport, and once there then they could go to picc from the airport without the need to cross so many tracks.
It would also give a use to the denton-reddish line, which lets face it, is not exactly suffering over use atm?

 

[krisk]

Terrible idea, its not broken as it stands now.

 

[Nym]

Just out of interest, whilst on the subject of trains to MIA.
What would be wrong with creating a link from the stockport line over to MIA???
This could move trains from yorkshire, direct to the airport, and once there then they could go to picc from the airport without the need to cross so many tracks.
It would also give a use to the denton-reddish line, which lets face it, is not exactly suffering over use atm?

Because:

1) It would increase journey times into Manchester by 30mins
2) The're being sent via Victoria soon anyway
3) There isn't space on Stockport Viaduct, between Denton and Stockport
4) There isn't the money to build a line between Cheadle Hume and Heald Green (Where I'm assuming you mean)
5) There isn't the capacity between Cheadle Hume and Stockport
6) It would probably take just as long to get to the Airport
7) It would increase journey times into Manchester by at least 30mins, I know that's the 2nd time I'm mentioning this, but it seems so major it warranted being mentioned twice.

 

[sittingnev]

Because:

1) It would increase journey times into Manchester by 30mins
2) The're being sent via Victoria soon anyway
3) There isn't space on Stockport Viaduct, between Denton and Stockport
4) There isn't the money to build a line between Cheadle Hume and Heald Green (Where I'm assuming you mean)
5) There isn't the capacity between Cheadle Hume and Stockport
6) It would probably take just as long to get to the Airport
7) It would increase journey times into Manchester by at least 30mins, I know that's the 2nd time I'm mentioning this, but it seems so major it warranted being mentioned twice.

I perhaps should have clarified. (just the Yorkshire - Airport trains only)

But the rest of your points have at least told me it would be difficult if not inplausable for it to happen.

 

[CosherB]

If ATW decide to start their North Wales service at the Airport instead of Picc, perhaps it should be routed south via Wilmslow, Crewe, and Chester instead of through Manchester?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If ATW decide to start their North Wales service at the Airport instead of Picc, perhaps it should be routed south via Wilmslow, Crewe, and Chester instead of through Manchester?

Then services at Frodsham, Helsby and Runcorn East wouldn't exist...

 

[merlodlliw]

If ATW decide to start their North Wales service at the Airport instead of Picc, perhaps it should be routed south via Wilmslow, Crewe, and Chester instead of through Manchester?

At the moment one service starts/stops at Llandudno, two are Chester to Chester.

Going via Crewe is not an option,the majority of fare payers on the Nth Wales service are from Picc to Chester, anyhow Northern quiet rightly would kick off.

 

[tbtc]

On a simple level, I think you've got to put this in context. Many people want to travel directly to the airport, they want a 'one seat service' (as 185 mentioned) with their (often bulky and numerous) pieces of luggage. I know the feeling after an 11 hour journey! To make the routes highly competitive against the car and parking (which Manchester Airport has so much of!), they are direct. That's a major selling point for TPE

Of course, but you need to put the frequency of people taking heavy luggage to the Airport (once a year?) into context against the everyday travellers.

Nobody is denying that direct trains are more useful to "holidaymakers", but are those direct trains worth the cost of eight trains an hour (with over twenty coaches an hour, in total), when these resources could be used elsewhere?

For me, its all about the opportunity cost.

 

[WatcherZero]

Are you arguing for less trains elsewhere with more dedicated to running back and forth as shuttles? I dont get you?
Choice of destinations versus frequency and your arguing less choice?

 

[tbtc]

Are you arguing for less trains elsewhere with more dedicated to running back and forth as shuttles? I dont get you?
Choice of destinations versus frequency and your arguing less choice?

I'm arguing for a better spread of resources, in line with demand (e.g. at the moment the trains are generally much busier between Leeds/ Sheffield/ Preston/ Liverpool and Manchester Piccadilly than they are between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport).

For example, based on current service patterns to other destinations, you could run four/hour from Manchester Airport to Preston (extending to Blackpool/ Barrow/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh on current service levels), with each station between the Airport and Piccadilly getting at least two trains an hour. With the Blackpool "slow" service now running from Piccadilly (so all Chorley/Preston services use Piccadilly) that means the Southport "fast" service can go from Victoria, meaning all Manchester trains to/from Wigan & Southport use Victoria. Makes things tidier.

Couple up the remaining services (so that the Cleethorpes service is tacked onto the Liverpool via Chat Moss service) and you give the Airport a more realistic level of service (four/hour) with the units saved being used to enhance other busy services across Northern England.

 

[WestCoast]

Airport services aren't just for "holidaymakers" may I point out. Business travellers, airport workers and inbound tourists are also potential users. Quite often I've seen the Windermere service literally packed full of tourists from the Far East.

I don't disagree in essence with what your saying though.
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I'm arguing for a better spread of resources, in line with demand (e.g. at the moment the trains are generally much busier between Leeds/ Sheffield/ Preston/ Liverpool and Manchester Piccadilly than they are between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport).

The 'fasts' can be very busy at certain times of the day. Although, it's not on the same level as the other destinations.

I would vehemently oppose any service reductions before the tram becomes an option.
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For example, based on current service patterns to other destinations, you could run four/hour from Manchester Airport to Preston (extending to Blackpool/ Barrow/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh on current service levels), with each station between the Airport and Piccadilly getting at least two trains an hour. With the Blackpool "slow" service now running from Piccadilly (so all Chorley/Preston services use Piccadilly) that means the Southport "fast" service can go from Victoria, meaning all Manchester trains to/from Wigan & Southport use Victoria. Makes things tidier.

So, you're only opening up direct services to the North West? Why does Barrow need a through service, but Leeds doesn't? Have I misunderstood what you are saying here?

 

[pemma]

Terrible idea, its not broken as it stands now.

According to Network Rail the line is pretty much at full capacity and a solution needs to be found around CP6:

The creation of the third platform has meant that the capacity at Manchester airport will become constrained by the layover of the trains and congestion at the throat. In the future it is anticipated that extending the line underneath the airport towards Northwich will be required in order to enable the airport station to handle greatly increased traffic. This will allow for both future rail growth and the potential for new journey opportunities. However, this is not expected to be required before CP6 or later.


http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...utePlans/2009/Route 20 - North West Urban.pdf
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Airport services aren't just for "holidaymakers" may I point out. Business travellers, airport workers and inbound tourists are also potential users. Quite often I've seen the Windermere service literally packed full of tourists from the Far East.

I once saw a Manchester Airport train arriving at Middlesbrough and a group of Japanese people got off with luggage. They bowed to the train and the ticket office before leaving the station. I don't know for certain that they came from Manchester Airport but I think there's a fair chance.

 

[NSE]

Someone mentioned that Manchester Airport is the third busiest airport, thats actually not true. Stansted is surprisingly busier than both Birmingham and Manchester and is in fact the third.