Manchester Victoria's 'lost' Subway

[Shaw S Hunter]

A lot of European railways they don't mind if you simply walk across the tracks to change platforms.

That isn't so much the case today, I find. It was 20 years ago though.

European railways generally have much lower platforms than we have here. Indeed there are many places where the platforms are not much more than compacted mounds of earth reaching barely above the height of the rails. In such circumstances it would be somewhat extravagant to provide a subway or bridge, though the crossing points are normally clearly defined and trains tend to stop short of them on arrival. This situation still prevails in many countries on the many long stretches of single track routes where loops are provided at far more stations than you would see here.

On the other hand at busier stations in the same countries, where the platforms are in any case more substantial, there are nearly always chains suspended from low posts between the tracks to discourage people from crossing the tracks on the level and at intervals along the chains are signs clearly indicating that to do so is forbidden.

And for yet further variety consider the Netherlands. It's just about the only country on the Continent where the standard platform height comes anywhere near British standards and crossing on the level, where it happens, is via an adjacent fully controlled level crossing.

In summary then the situation in Europe is not at all "black and white"!

 

[Par]

A couple more from the Manchester Victoria subway, one that I used many, many times:-

The steps up to Platforms 12/13

Looking back towards the ramp from what would be the bottom of the steps up to Platform 16

A superb layout plan of Manchester Victoria and Exchange in their heyday showing the subway arrangement

On the subject of existing subways, there is of course the one at Wigan North Western.

 

[kermit]

Manchester Victoria had more than one way of getting between platforms.....

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Horwich&objid=1997-7059_HOR_F_2711

 

[Crossover]

Plenty stations have subways - Wakefield Kirkgate is another in West Yorkshire
Other ones I have used that I can think of offhand:
Coatbridge Central
Warrington Central
Pollockshaws West
Hanwell

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester Victoria had more than one way of getting between platforms.....

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Horwich&objid=1997-7059_HOR_F_2711

Only if you were a parcel.....

The lad who operated it had quite a good view of the station.

 

[Springs Branch]

It would be interesting to know how the pedestrian subway at Victoria related to the River Irk culvert beneath the station.

Looking at maps, it looks like the subway would need to cross above the river between the wide ramp down from the main concourse and the steps up to Platforms 12 & 13.

Presumably the course of the Irk was deep enough that the subway did not make any significant incursion into the culvert.

One of several descriptions of the Irk culvert, and its re-purposed cattle bridge etc, is here.

 

[Urban-Savage]

Reading this reminds me of the long subway under the former Liverpool Exchange Station.

It linked the platforms and was split in two separated by iron railings with access to platforms one side and linking the two sides of the station for the public on the other.

It's only in recentish years it was closed to access and I'm sure from looking at the site it's still there with access possible should it be needed.

Was trying to find pictures but can't obviously see any.

 

[notlob.divad]

Huyton has two subways. Before the re-build to re-instate the 4 tracking, one was for the general public and one was within the station complex. However both provided access to both platforms.

Now it has been re-done, platforms 2&3 can only be accessed from the one within the station complex. but I think you can still get to platform 4 from both.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The difficulty with Subways is that it isn't easy to build one under a working railway, nor to extend one if the station is enlarged. This was one of the reasons Leeds had the subway closed, and would be a complication if ever Huddersfield gains the often-mooted platform 9. A bridge span on the other hand could probably be installed in a single blockade once the supports and stairwells/lift shafts have been constructed well clear of the operational railway.

 

[edwin_m]

It would be interesting to know how the pedestrian subway at Victoria related to the River Irk culvert beneath the station.

Looking at maps, it looks like the subway would need to cross above the river between the wide ramp down from the main concourse and the steps up to Platforms 12 & 13.

Presumably the course of the Irk was deep enough that the subway did not make any significant incursion into the culvert.

One of several descriptions of the Irk culvert, and its re-purposed cattle bridge etc, is here.

Looking at that link, if the culvert is where the Irk was before it was culverted, then it would have been underneath the former bay platforms and well to the south-east of the subway. And it would now be mostly to the south-east of the Metrolink station but passing somewhere underneath the big tram junction.

 

[yorksrob]

The difficulty with Subways is that it isn't easy to build one under a working railway, nor to extend one if the station is enlarged. This was one of the reasons Leeds had the subway closed, and would be a complication if ever Huddersfield gains the often-mooted platform 9. A bridge span on the other hand could probably be installed in a single blockade once the supports and stairwells/lift shafts have been constructed well clear of the operational railway.

Although given that Leeds' one was (actually "is" as it still exists) suspended in an existing arch, it would probably have been a lot easier to extend than most.

As for Victoria's, given how wide it was, I suspect it would still be here were it not for the platforms being rebuilt in a different location.

Shame there's nothing left of it though. When the new roof was being built I took a look at the area from the footbridge a few times and it looked pretty comprehensively filled in.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

There used to be a subway under Newport Station, and part of it is still there, although not now used for access to the station.

It runs from Queensway to Mill Street, and is really only now accessible on foot, as there's practically no access for the disabled and pushchairs etc. at both ends. The ramp from Platforms two and three into the tunnel is still there but the gate is locked, and a door (which is also locked) will allow access from the ramp into the tunnel.

On occasions, both of them have been opened and used as access to these platforms when the lift is out of order. However, the last time this happened (a couple of months ago) they just closed the two platforms completely and used nos. one and four instead.

I understand that the tunnel has a limited life ahead, as it seems that there are plans to rebuild / refurbish the bridge that used to run from Queensway to Mill Street. This will presumably have a lift at both ends, but won't provide another access into the station.

 

[kevconnor]

is Rochdale the only place where a previously closed subway has been reopened?

 

[Darren R]

It would be interesting to know how the pedestrian subway at Victoria related to the River Irk culvert beneath the station.

Looking at maps, it looks like the subway would need to cross above the river between the wide ramp down from the main concourse and the steps up to Platforms 12 & 13.

Presumably the course of the Irk was deep enough that the subway did not make any significant incursion into the culvert.

One of several descriptions of the Irk culvert, and its re-purposed cattle bridge etc, is here.

Prior to the 1909 extension, the River Irk lay just beyond the south-eastern boundary of the station, and is the reason why the bay platforms are still at an unusual angle to the through platforms. The river was largely culverted along its original course and the new suburban bay platforms built above it. The culvert is beneath the area between (the original) bay platforms 4 and 5, where the car park now is, south east of the Metrolink plaforms. After passing beneath the concourse, it crosses below Victoria Station Approach roughly where the pedestrain crossing is (unless it's moved recently - I haven't been to Victoria for a while!) The Irk then continues in a culvert beneath the length of Walker's Croft (behind the hideous new Chetham's building!) before joining the Irwell at the bottom of Hunt's Bank Approach.

At the opposite end of the station, the culvert turns north, passes beneath Cheetham Hill Road roughly where the Metrolink tracks cross under the road, and re-emerges just to the north, with the open river curving around the back of where East Junction signal box stood.

Getting back to the original topic, the passenger subway opened on Thursday 1 May 1884. It was divided lengthways into two, the west side for passengers and the east side for luggage and parcels. Originally there were four hydraulic hoists, built for transferring luggage between the subway and the platforms (in addition to the famous overhead parcels carrier.) The subway closed at the end of March 1993.

 

[Springs Branch]

Prior to the 1909 extension, the River Irk lay just beyond the south-eastern boundary of the station, and is the reason why the bay platforms are still at an unusual angle to the through platforms. The river was largely culverted along its original course and the new suburban bay platforms built above it. The culvert is beneath the area between (the original) bay platforms 4 and 5, where the car park now is, south east of the Metrolink plaforms. After passing beneath the concourse, it crosses below Victoria Station Approach roughly where the pedestrain crossing is (unless it's moved recently - I haven't been to Victoria for a while!) The Irk then continues in a culvert beneath the length of Walker's Croft (behind the hideous new Chetham's building!) before joining the Irwell at the bottom of Hunt's Bank Approach <snip>

For some reason I had thought that when the River Irk was culverted, it was straightened and ran roughly beneath old Platforms 11 Middle and 11 (and today's P.3). This is obviously totally incorrect.

Historic Ordnance Survey maps on the National Library of Scotland website give good snapshots of the development and spread of Victoria station in the 19th Century and show the Irk must have continued pretty much over its original course, as described by Darren R. The underground cattle bridge appears on the earliest map (1848) as an above-ground bridge, obviously, close to and north-west of the Long Millgate / Todd Street junction.

Thanks for the clarification - the pedestrian subway clearly went nowhere near the River Irk.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If I might take matters back to historical times, there was a river that flowed between the Irk and the Irwell, which was possibly part of the River Dene, lost in historical times, which became later known as Hanging Ditch.

This was bridged by Hanging Bridge in the area called Hanging Ditch, which was constructed in 1421 and some historians say this was to replace an even older bridge from the time of the Roman occupation and that some stones from the Roman bridge were used in its construction. Hanging Ditch being an unsavoury sewer in 1600, with the emanating odours affecting the Collegiate Church (Manchester Cathedral), the decision was taken to culvert it. Hanging Ditch was also the name given to a roadway in more recent times that ran from the rear of Manchester Cathedral to Corporation Street.

You can still see part of the second bridge from a side of the refrectory area in the basement of the Manchester Cathedral visitor centre.

 

[notlob.divad]

St Helens Central is well and truly abandoned. It has been sealed up. I don't know if it was entirely filled in or just the ends platformed over.

is Rochdale the only place where a previously closed subway has been reopened?

I am not sure if Roby's subway was ever fully abandoned. It has been brought back into full use with the 4 tracking.

Also Edge Hill has a subway that I think may have been closed for some time when I was younger but I don't think it was abandoned as such, just that they stopped trains calling at platforms 3&4 for a while and so had no reason to open it up.

I guess in areas where the tracks are raised from Ground Level, ie Wigan NW, Warrington Central, Deansgate, Salford Central etc they still make a lot of sense because you already have the space underneath.

 

[Rich McLean]

Plymouth has a Subway, which is the only access route from the Concourse & Platforms 3 & 4 to Platforms 5, 6, 7 & 8.
Birmingham New Street still has a Subway, but is now out of use to the public since the rebuild.

Others I know of that haven't been mentioned
Taunton
Bristol Temple Meads
Bath
Swindon
Didcot Parkway

Sure there are more on the GWML than that as well

 

[davyp]

Stockport - passenger access via subway, or platforms on a bridge with passenger access at ground level via a tunnel under the bridge?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stockport - passenger access via subway, or platforms on a bridge with passenger access at ground level via a tunnel under the bridge?

I think the vast majority of UK stations with "subways" are like that.

 

[randyrippley]

Carnforth
Oxenholme
Grange-over-Sands (strange one open to external traffic)
Barrow-in-Furness
and doesn't Ulverston have one?

 

[LowLevel]

Leicester London Road goods subway is still there (the clue is the recently applied bridge numbers on the platform faces at the north end of the station building) but I believe it's only accessible through a manhole in a cleaners cupboard. It runs from the carriage sidings to the car park at present with another manhole on the down platforms.

Derby has another subway used for signalling cables.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Disused passenger ones under Oxford and Bolton too IIRC.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Isn't there a class 142 cab front (possibly from the one that picked a fight with the buffers at Liverpool Lime Street) hidden somewhere beneath Manchester Victoria?

Yes, some pictures of Victoria subterraneana, including that, were posted on Skyscrapercity, perhaps 2 or 3 years ago.

Indeed - there is a image of one, gained from a site that deals with breaking and entering, that was posted to this forum

(linked from this post)

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=852831&postcount=13

 

[RichmondCommu]

Derby has another subway used for signalling cables.

Yes I'd forgotten about that. I can remember it being used for the transfer of parcels between platforms many years a go.

 

[Senex]

Yes I'd forgotten about that. I can remember it being used for the transfer of parcels between platforms many years a go.

Derby is interesting. The Midland had been considering a passenger subway since late 1874, but nothing was done until the major rebuilding of the station at the start of the 1880s and then the provision was a footbridge for passengers, a subway for parcels etc. Here's a report from the Derby Daily Telegraph of 28 March 1881:

“The Improvements at the Midland Railway Station.

"We are enabled to furnish some further information with respect to the important works now being under*taken for the enlargement and improvement of the Midland Railway Station at Derby. One of the most noticeable additions will be the erection of a new plat*form on the opposite side of the station, and this is to be 850 feet long and 45 feet wide, and overhung by a roof of iron and ornamental glass. This new platform, as well as the present centre plat*form, will be approached by a foot-bridge 16 feet wide with separate staircases down to each plat*form. The new bridge will obviate the use of the dan*gerous level crossing between the first and second platforms. This crossing, we are informed, is to be entirely superseded. The centre platform is also to be lengthened by about 350 feet. As the centre platform will in future be an important one in the taking up and setting down of passengers it is to be provided with waiting rooms and a refreshment buffet. New and im*proved means for the loading and unloading of horses and carriages also form a part of the design. As it would be difficult if not altogether impossible to transfer the luggage from one platform to another by means of the platform, a subway is being constructed under the lines with hydraulic machinery for raising and lowering the same as required. The alterations will necessitate the re-arrangement of the whole of the lines, and a number of crossover roads will be made to pass trains from beside one platform to another. These various works have been contracted for by Messrs. Handyside and Co., and Mr. E. Wood, of Derby. Mr. Johnston, the company’s engineer, and Mr. J. H. Sanders, architect, have furnished the plans upon which the improvements are being made. The works are being actively pushed on in view of the visit of the Royal Agricultural Show in July, when it is expected that great demands will be made upon the station accommodation. The contracts are very heavy, but the expenditure will result in the vastly improved condition of the station, and make it a fit centre of the Midland Railway Company.”

 

[kevconnor]

The number of threads that are popping up now about lost subways the mods are going to need to make a new subway forum for them all...I'll get my coat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

and doesn't Ulverston have one?

Yes. Ulverston notably has a curious German-style "Hausbahnsteig" and "Nebenbahnsteig" layout, with both platforms on the same side of the train, the Carnforth-bound one being effectively a single-sided island.

 

[6Gman]

Does anybody else remember the (staff access) subway which ran from outside the entrance to Stratford station to the diesel depot?

Used it in the early 1970s. Cannot visualise it now - hardly surprising given the changes in that area! !

On a general point subways were probably more useful when the railway moved large volumes of parcels and mails.

 

[snail]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the subway recently opened at Manchester Oxford Road for public use when the lifts were installed.