Massive increases for ALRs

[Polarbear]

The All Line Rover became the forgotten, (nay unloved - well by ATOC anyway) product of the BR era, (I believe it was introduced in the 60's by BR?), which I suspect is one of the reasons that the price wasn't increased for around 5 years.

However, Lord Adonis need not look too far as to the reasons behind the recent large increase in the ALR price. The gap between the cost of the ALR and Open (Anytime) peak returns has narrowed consirably over the last few years, in part driven by government policy. In the space of 2 weeks, the ALR has had more marketing than ATOC managed in 10 years or so!

D(a)FT are keen to extract large premiums from as many TOC's as possible, and are also shifting the balance between farebox/subsidy from 50:50 to 75:25. Againt that backdrop, the TOC's have hiked up many fares & many of the open returns are now at eye watering levels. These fares are of course core revenue for many TOC's

Given this, I can see why ATOC are non too keen on promoting the ALR as in their eyes, it could abstract a significant amount of potential revenue from the TOC's they represent.

Personally, I would love to see a "flexi" version of the ALR. An 8 in 15 version would suit me greatly rather than the current fixed periods of 7 & 14 days. However, having spoken to a friend of mine within the industry, I doubt this will ever happen. The reason he cited was that it was basically an unwritten rule that the TOC's didn't publisise the ALR, or tinker with it as to do so would be to effectively open "Pandora's Box". For instance, I understand that some TOC's would like to see peak restrictions placed on the ticket. Of course, if that happened, the whole thing would most likely fall apart as I imagine take up for a peak restricted ALR would be negligible.

What is needed of course is a much more coherent fares policy in the UK, which can't really happen unless;

a) Government policy on revenue support for the railway changes
b) More capacity is introduced into UK rail, thereby freeing space on already congested trains, (the fares for which TOC's are so keen to protect).

I just hope the ALR survives this unexpected bout of publicity. Whilst Lord Adonis would doubtless be unimpressed if the TOC's withdrew it, imposed peak restrictions or one/several TOC's opted out of it, I doubt there is much he could actually do about it.

 

[furryfeet]

two questions:-
a) what would Lord Adonis have to do in order to pass legislation to take away from ATOC the power to set fares for "national rovers" and hence set those fares directly from Merstham Street ?
b) How could one TOC opt out or introduce restrictions without the approval of all the others ? I thought that this is one reason why the ALR has survived - it is too difficult a task to get all the TOCs to agree on something !

P.S.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
P.S. I agree that an 8 in 15 rover would be better.

The TOCs are very narrow minded. They seem oblivious to the fact that by freezing the price of the ALR, passengers would be attracted to using the railway, instead of using aircraft / car / web conference !

 

[glynn80]

two questions:-
a) what would Lord Adonis have to do in order to pass legislation to take away from ATOC the power to set fares for "national rovers" and hence set those fares directly from Merstham Street ?!

If the DfT were to begin dictating to the TOCs the prices they can charge for particular tickets it would create a very stifling atmosphere for franchisees.

Obviously we do have fare regulation on our network. When British Rail was privatised this was accompanied by a government regulatory process to protect passengers in captive markets like London where commuters had almost no transport choice other than railways. It was also a government move to ensure acceptance of a very controversial privatisation plan even within the governing Conservative party. The government decided to regulate Saver tickets and Standard return tickets where there was no Saver ticket, along with all commuter and weekly season tickets. Fares were set largely at existing BR levels and changes in these fares were capped at the Retail Price Index (RPI).

There were obvious reasons for the two types regulation introduced above. However the DfT deciding it needs to intervene on the pricing of non-essential leisure products, would lead to a collapse in the confidence of any future potential franchise bidders, for fear of further intervention in other rail products such as Anytime fares.

The government's policy of moving away from state subsidy for our railways to those actually using the railways, paying for them, would also be at odds with DfT intervention. It would not be in their interests to restrict TOCs profit making abilities.

The TOCs are very narrow minded. They seem oblivious to the fact that by freezing the price of the ALR, passengers would be attracted to using the railway, instead of using aircraft / car / web conference

I think you are confused in what exactly the ALR offers a passenger. It is a designed as a leisure product that allows a passenger to travel unrestricted on the National Rail network.

How many potential ALR users are going to switch to aircraft? Well considering it is essentially a turn-up and go product allowing passengers access to all areas of the UK, I doubt many are going to switch to airlines with their ridiculous prices on turn up and go travel and the reality that the UK airline network hardly provides the extensive coverage our rail network does.

And switching to web conferencing?- The fact an ALR is a leisure travel product, not a product used by businesses to ferry their representatives to meetings, web conferencing really isn't going to provide an alternative for the average ALR user looking for a weeks recreational travel around the UK, is it?

I think if the price increase is going to do anything, it will either stop potential ALR users making their trip altogether or they'll switch to an alternative product such as an Interrail pass. Will the TOCs particularly care of this small revenue loss? I doubt it with the potential for greater losses from passengers using the ALR for journeys they consider it wasn't intended for.

If you think the TOCs are using their powerful position in the market to take advantage of consumers or fix prices you can contact the Office of Rail Regulation who can conduct an investigation if they have reasonable grounds to suspect the Competition Act 1998 has been breached. Bear in mind however that no investigation has ever been successful to the ORR under the Competition Act 1998- this is for a variety of reasons stemming from the fact that a very high legal test must be met.

For prices to be too high under competition law, the income a train company earns would have to be much higher than the train company’s costs. Companies compete to win franchise contracts by offering the best package, including as low a subsidy or as high a premium, they think they can. A lower subsidy or higher premium tends to lower a train company’s profits. Think of a subsidy as income and think of a premium as a cost. Both affect train companies’ profits.

 

[First class]

Personally, if they are going to get rid of it- they should at least keep the PRIV rate version. Best you get to boxes...

 

[John @ home]

they should at least keep the PRIV rate version.

As long as they use ink which stays on the ticket!
Did you ever resolve your difficulty with Virgin over your unreadable ALR?

John

 

[Death]

Hail again!
Apologies for digging up an old thread, but I thought I'd share a letter that I wrote to both Lord Adonis and ATOC a few days ago concerning the ALR itself, my views on the same, my views on the underhand way that ATOC have increased the fares without giving people the notice that (IMO) they should be entitled to, and suggestions for other types of ALR that IMO should also be made available. 8)

Because I'd rather not have the letter come up in Google searches etc. and obviously want to protect my personal information, I've attached an edited down version of the letter to this post.
(And before anyone asks: Aye, In do write all of my letters in HTML. It's an open and cross-platform compatable format that'll work on any OS, and it saves me having to fork out on a certain American word processor as I can't ever seem to get along with OpenOffice! )

Farewell for now, and please let me know of any comments ye may have!
>> Death <<

 

[yorkie]

Had a quick read of the letter and it is good, however ATOC will ignore it. David Mapp wants us to "buy CDs" instead of making "leisure journeys", so you're up against a brick wall there.

As for the X days in Y idea, they let foreign tourists do that but they won't let us as they take pleasure in treating us like crap.

 

[323235]

A three day all line rover would be great if it were £120 with a Railcard