May 17 timetable changes

[mikestone1952]

RTT and NRE currently show both the existing Northern 1900 Manchester Airport to Preston and the new TPE 1900 Manchester Airport to Glasgow after the May change. Clearly they cannot both occupy the same path from the Airport to Oxford Road, so I suspect Northern is "behind the curve" with its timetable update.

At the moment, Northern borrows an extra 185 from TPE specifically for the 1900 to Preston. This unit then returns from Preston to the Airport joined to the 1940 Blackpool North to Airport and goes back to TPE. So I guess Northern is not in a strong bargaining position if it wants to oppose TPE taking over the path!

The Glasgow service will run non-stop from Oxford Road to Preston via Golborne, so Bolton, Horwich Parkway and Chorley will all lose a service to Preston. But there is a Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North stopping service behind, which arrives at Preston only 17 minutes later. Passengers for Horwich Parkway or Chorley from Piccadilly/Oxford Road will have to leave 14 minutes earlier and change at Bolton, while passengers for Bolton can take the 1904 Airport to Southport.

RTT shows an additional TPE 1847 departure from Glasgow, arriving at the Airport 2248.

There is an 18.02 Buxton-Bolton which could be extended if they need to replace the stops to meet the train service requirement.
;
On the subject of TSR the 19.43 Euston-Birmingham-Preston terminates at Crewe, returning empty to Oxley in place of one of the Manchester-Oxley ECSs - it will connect with the 20.30 at Stafford, but not at Crewe.

 

[anthony263]

Any summer saturday services to Pembroke Dock this year?

 

[PHILIPE]

Any summer saturday services to Pembroke Dock this year?

I've looked up for you

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/PMD/2017/06/10/0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Starmill]

According to NRE, the arrival time at Piccadilly will be 2232 not 2234. The overall journey time from Glasgow to Piccadilly will be 5 minutes less for the new 1847 TPE than for the existing 1740 last service. For the 1740 similarly, it is possible leave 10 minutes earlier on the 1730 Euston service, change at Preston and get to Piccadilly 32 minutes earlier (compared with 35 minutes earlier using the 1840 versus the 1847). So does no-one use the 1740 for through journeys?

The 1740 goes to Birmingham New Street, not Manchester Airport. So yes I certainly think nobody uses it for through journeys from Glasgow to Manchester.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't think Newquay (like most Cornish holiday resorts) struggles to attract tourists/holidaymakers, the trouble these days is some of the types it attracts (unlike the other Cornish destinations) but the problem for TOCs is the fact that it's located at the end of a long and tediously slow branchline on top of an already long distance journey and that's before factoring in the competition from the budget airlines, coach inclusive holidays, private car etc. I do agree with your Brexit point though! I wonder how this will affect the many tourists from other European countries such as Holland, Germany etc that I witness every time I'm down there?

Certainly Skegness has caught everybody off guard with last year being the busiest in very many years - the trains were leaving people behind at Skegness, Grantham and Nottingham all summer and loadings of 650-700 on the HST sets were causing dwell times of 40 minutes at Skegness - it was getting to the point the service was unusable at intermediate stations.

 

[dk1]

Certainly Skegness has caught everybody off guard with last year being the busiest in very many years - the trains were leaving people behind at Skegness, Grantham and Nottingham all summer and loadings of 650-700 on the HST sets were causing dwell times of 40 minutes at Skegness - it was getting to the point the service was unusable at intermediate stations.

Great Yarmouth has become almost as busy for holiday traffic on Mondays & Fridays as it is on Saturdays with the popular short breaks that are common at Holiday Parks these days. I noticed on Friday that following the arrival of services from Warrington, London & Cambridge that the 12:36 from Norwich was swamped shortly before departure. This class 37 short-hauled set left full&standing with cases blocking aisles/doorways as I attempted to leave at the Gardens. It's rather early for such crowds but possibly bodes well for the upcoming season. Let's hope we have enough rolling stock to cope rather than relying on the stand-by bus to bail us out as last year.

 

[Bungle965]

Great Yarmouth has become almost as busy for holiday traffic on Mondays & Fridays as it is on Saturdays with the popular short breaks that are common at Holiday Parks these days. I noticed on Friday that following the arrival of services from Warrington, London & Cambridge that the 12:36 from Norwich was swamped shortly before departure. This class 37 short-hauled set left full&standing with cases blocking aisles/doorways as I attempted to leave at the Gardens. It's rather early for such crowds but possibly bodes well for the upcoming season. Let's hope we have enough rolling stock to cope rather than relying on the stand-by bus to bail us out as last year.

The appearance of Bertie the Bus seems inevitable.
We can live in hope however.
Sam

 

[InOban]

Even up here in Oban the weekend trains are, out of season, much busier than midweek. Persuading network rail that they would be better arranging engineering work midweek seems difficult, however. The Sunday closure seems to be in their DNA.

 

[Greybeard33]

The 1740 goes to Birmingham New Street, not Manchester Airport. So yes I certainly think nobody uses it for through journeys from Glasgow to Manchester.

Oops! Previous post corrected.

I presume TPE has to get the 350 and crew back from Glasgow to Manchester somehow, to counterbalance the new 1900 northbound service (which does have a "normal" path). Even with its slow path, the new 1847 southbound should at least bring in more revenue than an ECS move.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly Skegness has caught everybody off guard with last year being the busiest in very many years - the trains were leaving people behind at Skegness, Grantham and Nottingham all summer and loadings of 650-700 on the HST sets were causing dwell times of 40 minutes at Skegness - it was getting to the point the service was unusable at intermediate stations.

While that will need addressing, the idea that masses of people would be using the train to British seaside destinations once again seemed unthinkable in the 1990s...

 

[455driver]

I don't think Newquay (like most Cornish holiday resorts) struggles to attract tourists/holidaymakers, the trouble these days is some of the types it attracts (unlike the other Cornish destinations) but the problem for TOCs is the fact that it's located at the end of a long and tediously slow branchline on top of an already long distance journey and that's before factoring in the competition from the budget airlines, coach inclusive holidays, private car etc. I do agree with your Brexit point though! I wonder how this will affect the many tourists from other European countries such as Holland, Germany etc that I witness every time I'm down there?

The Councils are trying to correct that and turn it back into a family friendly location, and to be honest they are doing quite a good job, okay its slow going but the word is getting out that chav behaviour will not be tollerated.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[bunnahabhain]

Caught people out??? I would suggest that it was to be expected as EMT actually REDUCED Summer Saturday morning capacity to/from Skegness by 3 x 153/6/8 vehicles, equivalent to about 220 seats... Losing about 220 seats from Nottingham to Skegness at the busiest time on Saturday morning (0815-1045) was always going to see chronic overcrowding...

The summer 2015 timetable generally matched capacity to demand, yes they're was still a bit of overcrowding, but it was only the 1045 ex Nottingham (4 car) working that saw chronic overcrowding...

In the absence of any extra DMU's, I would suggest an extra HST (or 222) operated service around 0953 ex Derby and 1740 return, in addition the 0753 Derby-Skegness and 1140 return.

I know EMT are loaning Virgin East Coast another HST on Saturdays from May (to allow Leeds-Kings Cross to go half hourly on Saturdays). Could EMT resource an 8th set on summer Saturdays like they do Monday to Fridays or do maintenance requirements or other reasons rule it out???

No, the second diagram has been cancelled. It was to run an hour behind the first set, approx 0930 ex NOT and 1240 ex SKG. A hire in short hauled set was looked at as well, and is "unlikely to happen" but hasn't been totally ruled out from the last update I had.

 

[berneyarms]

The two longest scheduled ECS workings on the network appear to be ending with this timetable change:

21:33 Glasgow Central - Preston (Monday to Thursday)
09:27 Central Rivers Depot - Holyhead (Sundays)

 

[Ash Bridge]

The Councils are trying to correct that and turn it back into a family friendly location, and to be honest they are doing quite a good job, okay its slow going but the word is getting out that chav behaviour will not be tollerated.

That really is good to hear, I've got very fond memories of family holiday visits to Newquay when I was a youngster, let's hope they succeed in their efforts!

 

[LowLevel]

Regrettably the East Midlands passengers are being repeatedly screwed over by handing the family silver over to the East Coast - not only are the existing HSTs failing in one way or another literally every day leading to rush hour short formations and stop changes out of St Pancras, it's killed off the second summer Skegness HST which is sorely needed - and with the Saturday Newark trains etc there's actually less carriages diagrammed this year to Skegness. That's with 15X fleet availability also dreadful leading on one occasion the other week to most key 1700-1800 rush hour services being formed of a single 153 out of Nottingham. To say we are getting somewhat fed up is an understatement.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The two longest scheduled ECS workings on the network appear to be ending with this timetable change:

...
09:27 Central Rivers Depot - Holyhead (Sundays)

It appears as though 5K90 SO 2022 Holyhead to Crewe LNWR has been caped from May too, which is presumably where the unit balance for the Sunday comes from.

 

[Class 170101]

1847 from Glasgow? Seven minutes behind the London Euston service? Great. Has a s**** path too. The 1840 takes 1h07 to get to Carlisle non-stop. The 1847 will take 1h42, with one stop at Lockerbie. It doesn't reach Manchester Piccadilly until 2234, whereas the connection from the 1840 gets there at 2157. I guess its of benefit for passengers from Glasgow to Lockerbie or Penrith, or Carlisle to Penrith but...

The TPE takes a different route out of Glasgow compared to the VWC service. Avoiding Motherwell.

 

[BMIFlyer]

RTT and NRE currently show both the existing Northern 1900 Manchester Airport to Preston and the new TPE 1900 Manchester Airport to Glasgow after the May change. Clearly they cannot both occupy the same path from the Airport to Oxford Road, so I suspect Northern is "behind the curve" with its timetable update.

At the moment, Northern borrows an extra 185 from TPE specifically for the 1900 to Preston. This unit then returns from Preston to the Airport joined to the 1940 Blackpool North to Airport and goes back to TPE. So I guess Northern is not in a strong bargaining position if it wants to oppose TPE taking over the path!

The Glasgow service will run non-stop from Oxford Road to Preston via Golborne, so Bolton, Horwich Parkway and Chorley will all lose a service to Preston. But there is a Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North stopping service behind, which arrives at Preston only 17 minutes later. Passengers for Horwich Parkway or Chorley from Piccadilly/Oxford Road will have to leave 14 minutes earlier and change at Bolton, while passengers for Bolton can take the 1904 Airport to Southport.

RTT shows an additional TPE 1847 departure from Glasgow, arriving at the Airport 2248.

A couple of updates regarding this...

There will now be an 1858 from Man Air to Glasgow utilising a class 350 and this runs Mon to Friday from 29 May.

The 1900 ex Man Air will still run to Preston only, using a 185.
On Mon and Tue 29/30 May ONLY it runs non stop from Oxford Road via Eccles to Preston.

On all other weekdays that week it calls at Bolton, Horwich, Chorley and Preston.

On Saturday, there is no 1858 from Man Air but instead there's a 1900 TPE service Man Air to Preston also calling at Wigan NW. This uses a class 350.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

On all other weekdays that week it calls at Bolton, Harwich, Chorley and Preston.

Quite the diversion

In all seriousness though, thanks for the update.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Quite the diversion

In all seriousness though, thanks for the update.

Darn it

 

[Greybeard33]

A couple of updates regarding this...

There will now be an 1858 from Man Air to Glasgow utilising a class 350 and this runs Mon to Friday from 29 May.

The 1900 ex Man Air will still run to Preston only, using a 185.

Hmm. I find it hard to believe this is realistic timetabling. According to RTT, the working timetable has the two services passing through Slade Lane and Ardwick Junctions with only one minute headway. The 185 arrives in Piccadilly Platform 14 one minute before the 350 departs it (double occupancy - cue chaos as passengers push past each other to try to get to the right train). Then the 185 arrives in Oxford Road Platform 2 at the same time as the 350 departs the same platform - which does not support double occupancy!

 

[BMIFlyer]

Hmm. I find it hard to believe this is realistic timetabling. According to RTT, the working timetable has the two services passing through Slade Lane and Ardwick Junctions with only one minute headway. The 185 arrives in Piccadilly Platform 14 one minute before the 350 departs it (double occupancy - cue chaos as passengers push past each other to try to get to the right train). Then the 185 arrives in Oxford Road Platform 2 at the same time as the 350 departs the same platform - which does not support double occupancy!

I somewhat agree. However, according to National Rail Enquiries (app), the 1858 arrives Piccadilly platform 14 and the 1900 uses 13B.

At Oxford Road the 1858 uses platform 2 and the 1900 platform 1.

The 350 will out accelerate the 185 anyway so the timings at Slade Lane at least are a moot point. Regarding ardwick junction the services can approach Piccadilly using the fast and slow lines at the same time.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I just had a look on RTT, and it matches the NRES app.... At least on the 29th.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MCO/2017/05/29/1900?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

 

[Greybeard33]

I just had a look on RTT, and it matches the NRES app.... At least on the 29th.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MCO/2017/05/29/1900?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

On 29th May both services are on a VAR schedule. If you look at the standard schedule, e.g. on 5th June, the platform numbers are as my previous post, on both RTT and NRE (the WTT arrival times are 1 minute earlier than the public timetable).

Of course platform numbers can change, but a Hazel Grove service is scheduled into Picc Platform 13 in the opposite direction at 1920, only 3 minutes after the Preston service is scheduled to depart.

Oxford Road Platform 1 is not normally used for through services - I do not think that the signal overlaps are sufficient to allow a train to be signalled into it while another is departing Platform 2, so there is no headway advantage.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Cheers.

I see what you mean now. I'll see if any of my friends who work on the railway can find out any info for me about these service changes.

I usually like using RTT as it's a good source - I'll see if any different information turns up in the meantime.

 

[kieron]

The TPE takes a different route out of Glasgow compared to the VWC service. Avoiding Motherwell.

Looking at it, the 1847 from Glasgow Central will take the route the 0422 takes now (albeit with a lot more padding - 15 1/2 minutes' pathing allowance alone before it reaches Carlisle). The 0422 changes to go via Motherwell. It doesn't call at Motherwell, but waits for 4 1/2 minutes to take its current path to Lockerbie.

 

[louis97]

Oxford Road Platform 1 is not normally used for through services - I do not think that the signal overlaps are sufficient to allow a train to be signalled into it while another is departing Platform 2, so there is no headway advantage.

There is a restrictive overlap available, so no issue with letting a train into platform 1 whilst a train has the route set out of platform 2. The train into platform 1 will just be approach controlled up to the signal outside the station.

 

[AndrewR232]

It looks like Kennishead, Priesthill & Darnley and Nitshill stations will gain a Sunday service.

 

[mikestone1952]

Looking at it, the 1847 from Glasgow Central will take the route the 0422 takes now (albeit with a lot more padding - 15 1/2 minutes' pathing allowance alone before it reaches Carlisle). The 0422 changes to go via Motherwell. It doesn't call at Motherwell, but waits for 4 1/2 minutes to take its current path to Lockerbie.

I think you have looked at a week when the Mossend route is blocked. The 04.22 WTT schedule is still that way.