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May 2021 Timetable Change

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43074

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Runs with a 1Kxx headcode in one direction and a 2Nxx in the other! That must be pretty unusual....
Also has 8 min turnarounds at the Crewe end, and 9 mins at Newark which will be interesting from a performance point of view, especially when the existing service isn't their most reliable and only runs between Derby and Crewe
 
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Andy Pacer

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Also interesting that the current 0630(ish) ECS Leicester to Loughborough which positions the unit which stables in Leicester overnight will run in service at 0632 from Leicester, I'm sure it will confuse some people as it is just 8 mins ahead of the traditional Nottingham stopper!
 

jfollows

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Runs with a 1Kxx headcode in one direction and a 2Nxx in the other! That must be pretty unusual....
An old thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1k05-0842-derby-crewe.142938/#post-2910507) says
Pretty much all the lm through alsager are class 1 too. It's to do with how the signalling is set up at alsager. Not sure of the finer details but if a class 1 comes in the barriers can be lowered earlier and you come in on green signals, with a class 2 you come in on caution aspects (red/yellows) as the barriers can't be put down until the final approach so adds time.
There is nothing in the Sectional Appendix that I can see to back up this statement. However, if it's true, and I recall it being mentioned here more than once in the past, it might explain the Class 1 operation towards Crewe.

The Crewe-Derby stoppers have been class 1 services in both directions for a number of years, which has always seemed a little unusual.
 

Failed Unit

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On both GTR & SE it won’t be a return to any sort of pre-COVID timetable in May. Simply not the demand for that many commuter services in the weekday peaks.

Especially as the work from home advice will be one of the last things to change and even then it’s far from certain how many people will actually return 5 days a week.

I’d expect a slight increase in services but I doubt it’ll be anywhere near December 20 levels yet (which didn’t really operate on either TOC anyway) let alone the December 19 timetable.

Also worth noting that GN won’t have as much stock to play with from May (most of which is sat around in sidings currently) so there definitely is no sign of a sudden increase in services.

You can also say goodbye to GX 387s operating on the East Coastway, that’ll revert to 377 from May.
Any sign of Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks or Maidstone - Cambridge (although I understand the later wasn't supposed to be before Dec 2021 if ever anyway)

I think with what you are saying the answer is no - as the Welwyn Garden City - London KX service that would have continued to Sevenoaks has not ran during most of the pandemic. (I have not seen enough people on the Cambridge - Kings Cross services to be in a hurry for it to return either)
 

LowLevel

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Also interesting that the current 0630(ish) ECS Leicester to Loughborough which positions the unit which stables in Leicester overnight will run in service at 0632 from Leicester, I'm sure it will confuse some people as it is just 8 mins ahead of the traditional Nottingham stopper!

That is a consequence of basically all bar a small handful of the usual ECS positioning moves being converted to passenger trains. Means you can significantly increase the (headline) number of seats provided, whether or not they're strictly useful.

Another example is on a Saturday night where there are 2 EMR services from Manchester to Nottingham (one starting from Liverpool) just over 10 min apart for the entire journey.
 

Ianno87

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An old thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1k05-0842-derby-crewe.142938/#post-2910507) says

There is nothing in the Sectional Appendix that I can see to back up this statement. However, if it's true, and I recall it being mentioned here more than once in the past, it might explain the Class 1 operation towards Crewe.

The Crewe-Derby stoppers have been class 1 services in both directions for a number of years, which has always seemed a little unusual.

Ah, I see - thank you.
 

swt_passenger

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That is a consequence of basically all bar a small handful of the usual ECS positioning moves being converted to passenger trains. Means you can significantly increase the (headline) number of seats provided, whether or not they're strictly useful.
Good point, especially if you multiply it out over the whole week, month or year depending on how much positive spin you want... :D
 

Failed Unit

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Looking at the EMR timetable - it is a pity that the Grimsby - Leicester services typically follow miss a connection at Lincoln for London. Hopefully that will be resolved in May 2022.
 

Starmill

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Goodness, I note that the 0717 Derby to Sheffield is retimed to 0659 and loses its Chesterfield call, meaning it now runs fast from Belper to Dronfield. I hope nobody regularly uses the one train a day each way between Belper and Chesterfield!
 

Watershed

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That is a consequence of basically all bar a small handful of the usual ECS positioning moves being converted to passenger trains. Means you can significantly increase the (headline) number of seats provided, whether or not they're strictly useful.
Looks like they have mainly done so for services where a conductor was previously travelling pass.

Still 4 ECS Etches Park-Sheffield services in the morning before the first service train from Derby to Sheffield at 06:27 o_O
 

LowLevel

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Looks like they have mainly done so for services where a conductor was previously travelling pass.

Still 4 ECS Etches Park-Sheffield services in the morning before the first service train from Derby to Sheffield at 06:27 o_O
That'll be about right. Regional ECS trains usually carry a guard, only a handful that don't, though they're booked pass with a few exceptions to avoid route knowledge issues (the morning Ambergate ECS always had the guard booked to work the train, not sure whether the Matlock branch is even passed for DOO-NP or whether the RHTT trains which are the only booked "freight" carry a trainman to operate the ground frame at Matlock anyway).

Signing the diversions has come in useful anyway - my route card is very nearly full and more than once I've had to convert the Saturday evening Worksop or Mansfield Woodhouse empties back to Notts via Pinxton in to a non stop express to get someone drunk and incapable back into the city for the police to assist in their removal :lol:
Intercity has always had a bigger proportion of ECS moves with just the driver on.
 

Andy Pacer

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I was wondering how EMR would integrate the 1tpd to Melton Mowbray and it seems like a very sensible solution has been found to portion work the 18:35 St Pan to Nottingham / Melton Mowbray splitting at Kettering. In the Up direction there is a 08:15 from Melton Mowbray which joins to the 08:13 from Nottingham at Kettering. It does push this one Nottingham into a slightly different path and extends journey times but has the benefits of providing Corby with that Intercity train at key times as well as a well timed direct London train for Oakham and Melton Mowbray.

There is still a spread of pathing time south of Leicester - but I see this as an opportunity once the timetable is settled and proven to work for EMR to look at providing tactical calls particularly in the Sheffield service at key times without affecting journey times, e.g. northbound in the AM and southbound in the PM - similar to what Avanti do on the West Coast for Glasgow and other long distance services to retain at least some direct connectivity at the busiest times.
Also interesting to note the inclusion of a lunchtime Melton Mowbray trip, I hadn't realised there was to be one.
 

James90012

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Even stranger that it doesn't operate on Wednesday's which is the day I was using. That is interesting as the midday one replaces a Corby path.
 

Andy Pacer

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Even stranger that it doesn't operate on Wednesday's which is the day I was using. That is interesting as the midday one replaces a Corby path.
Coincidental that the current route refresher path that uses the HST also doesn't run on a Wednesday.
 

spotify95

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Goodness, I note that the 0717 Derby to Sheffield is retimed to 0659 and loses its Chesterfield call, meaning it now runs fast from Belper to Dronfield. I hope nobody regularly uses the one train a day each way between Belper and Chesterfield!
How did you manage to find this out? I can't find anything about the May 2021 timetable on the EMR website. I'm most interested in what is happening with the new Electrics service, what the interchanges are going to be like, and what the times are of the very few trains that go directly from Wellingborough up to Leicester and the North.
 

HST43257

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How did you manage to find this out? I can't find anything about the May 2021 timetable on the EMR website. I'm most interested in what is happening with the new Electrics service, what the interchanges are going to be like, and what the times are of the very few trains that go directly from Wellingborough up to Leicester and the North.
The timetable consultation and/or Realtime Trains I’m guessing
 

Glenn1969

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EMR is on RTT now.

Services North from Wellingborough are at 0020, 0132, 0642 0751( and 1136 (to Melton). All other services terminate at Corby
 

Tomnick

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Even stranger that it doesn't operate on Wednesday's which is the day I was using. That is interesting as the midday one replaces a Corby path.
If I remember correctly, there’s a regular Wednesday daytime possession between Corby and Manton for track inspections.
 

Starmill

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How did you manage to find this out? I can't find anything about the May 2021 timetable on the EMR website. I'm most interested in what is happening with the new Electrics service, what the interchanges are going to be like, and what the times are of the very few trains that go directly from Wellingborough up to Leicester and the North.
You can just search for the train at www.nre.co.uk. Here it is: https://m.nationalrail.co.uk/pj/jd/...Id=&inboundFareId=5&direction=outward&legId=1
 

717001

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There is a page on NRE, that shows the latest dates for which train info should be treated as reliable:

Some train companies are not currently meeting the 6 week target and it looks to be some time yet before anything showing for May can be regarded as anything other than "aspirational".
 

berneyarms

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In normal times, the publication of the timetable pdf files by the train companies is the point when the schedule usually becomes pretty much definitive.

But these are anything but normal times, so best treat everything as provisional until much closer to the time.
 

Bald Rick

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There is a page on NRE, that shows the latest dates for which train info should be treated as reliable:

Some train companies are not currently meeting the 6 week target and it looks to be some time yet before anything showing for May can be regarded as anything other than "aspirational".

May is going to be pretty accurate, when published (as some already is).

TOCs have had two goes at it now, most recently only a few weeks back, and it is based on assumptions for passenger demand over the summer that still hold good.

There will of course still be changes for engineering work, and there may be some changes to cater for unexpected changes in demand, but the latter will be relatively small.
 

vlad

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Also has 8 min turnarounds at the Crewe end, and 9 mins at Newark which will be interesting from a performance point of view, especially when the existing service isn't their most reliable and only runs between Derby and Crewe

That's longer at Crewe than they get now - although of course there's plenty of time at Derby.

The Crewe-Derby stoppers have been class 1 services in both directions for a number of years, which has always seemed a little unusual.

...and they still have to wait for late-running VT and XC services to overtake. :{
(I realise why they do that but it's still annoying to wait just outside Stoke for 15 minutes again.)
 

43055

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Also has 8 min turnarounds at the Crewe end, and 9 mins at Newark which will be interesting from a performance point of view, especially when the existing service isn't their most reliable and only runs between Derby and Crewe
That's my thought as well. The reversing time is minimal as well at Derby at 3-4 mins and being timed at 100mph and around 5 mins faster between Derby and Crewe. Defiantly not going to keep time with a 156.

Also with the extension of the Crewe service to Nottingham and Newark the Matlock service have moved round the hour slightly and has a very slack timetable due to other services. Departures from Nottingham are generally at xx54 arriving at Derby around xx23 and then waits 12 mins for the Sheffield service to call. Matlock departures are generally around xx14 with departures from Derby at around xx51. This now means that both ways the Matlock service connects with the fast services to London.
Runs with a 1Kxx headcode in one direction and a 2Nxx in the other! That must be pretty unusual....

An old thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/1k05-0842-derby-crewe.142938/#post-2910507) says

There is nothing in the Sectional Appendix that I can see to back up this statement. However, if it's true, and I recall it being mentioned here more than once in the past, it might explain the Class 1 operation towards Crewe.

The Crewe-Derby stoppers have been class 1 services in both directions for a number of years, which has always seemed a little unusual.
I have always thought that the use of 1K was because of joining the mainline at Kidsgrove and that a class 2 could be held for something coming from Manchester.
Also interesting to note the inclusion of a lunchtime Melton Mowbray trip, I hadn't realised there was to be one.
I believe it was mentioned in the consultation that there would be a Daytime service.

Just knocked this up in excel to show part of the new MML timetable currently on RTT and the connections at Kettering with the Corby services. Northbound seems very good with around 5 mins while southbound it is around 12 mins due to slotting in behind the Sheffield's as they pass Kettering around the same time. The platform numbers at St Pancras suggests that the 360s will have sole use of platform 1.
1614891280983.png
 

craigybagel

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Looks like they have mainly done so for services where a conductor was previously travelling pass.

Still 4 ECS Etches Park-Sheffield services in the morning before the first service train from Derby to Sheffield at 06:27 o_O
The fact they have a depot at Sheffield for Train Managers but not drivers might explain that one?
That's my thought as well. The reversing time is minimal as well at Derby at 3-4 mins and being timed at 100mph and around 5 mins faster between Derby and Crewe. Defiantly not going to keep time with a 156.
I wouldn't be so sure. The 170s on these services will spend very little time above the 75mph top speed of a 156, and although I've never worked either unit I've been led to believe at lower speeds a 156 has better acceleration than a 170 anyway?
 

jfollows

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I have always thought that the use of 1K was because of joining the mainline at Kidsgrove and that a class 2 could be held for something coming from Manchester.
Could be, I certainly don't have any belief in the thing I quoted about class 1 services at Alsager, although it might be true. I note that the current services from Crewe to Derby are also 1Kxx services (eg https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81200/2021-03-04/detailed, today, 08:07 Crewe to Derby is 1K04). Always strange, and not any the less strange in the new timetable!
 

Class 170101

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Great to see EMR introducing a later last southbound train.

2147 Ex Sheffield calling at principal stations to London

This should improve mid/late evening travel opportunities from the north and the Midlands to Leicester, Market Harborough and Kettering etc.

Very impressed with the EMR Intercity timetable - one or two gripes perhaps but overall most impressed with what I have seen.

Main change I would make
1F85 22:32 St Pancras to Sheffield I'd run half hour earlier departing 22:05 to give a better balance in the evenings post 21:30 departing St Pancras, 05 for Sheffield and 35 for Nottingham.

22:05, 22:35 and 23:05 also to call at Bedford, 23:35 should really call at Bedford and Wellingborough for last connections.

Also surprised about some open stops at stations north of Bedford after midnight. East Coast make all theirs set down only.

Last Up Sheffield should really call Wellingborough, Bedford and (maybe) Luton Stations (maybe set down) rather than non-stop from Kettering for last up connections really.

First Up from Derby should really call at Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and Luton Stations too

However minor gripes in the grand scheme of things, very impressed with this timetable.
 

TheBigD

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It would appear that there is finally an hourly service along the Joint Line between Peterborough and Lincoln. Sadly some 2 hour gaps on Saturdays and no Sunday service.

Time vary (a lot!) but generally around xx35 from Lincoln (0612 to 1936, then 2137(SX)) and around xx20 from Peterborough (0632 to 1926, then 2104, and 2310(SX) which has the honour of being booked via the Sleaford avoider!)

There's an extra 2008 Norwich to Nottingham.

And there's a odd (SX) 2012 Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester all stops taking 2hr14m!

Only 5 trips shown on the Lincoln to Doncaster route.
 

LowLevel

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The fact they have a depot at Sheffield for Train Managers but not drivers might explain that one?

I wouldn't be so sure. The 170s on these services will spend very little time above the 75mph top speed of a 156, and although I've never worked either unit I've been led to believe at lower speeds a 156 has better acceleration than a 170 anyway?

The only time you'll get above 75 is between North Staffs Jn and Derby where you will get between 80 and 90 if you get a clear run, and between Derby and Long Eaton where you should get 100 (158s get 90, I haven't worked a 170 anywhere but Notts - Worksop yet).

156 should be fine I would think and 158s will definitely be fine.

The existing timings are for very asthmatic 153s and a 156 or 158 will wait time all over the place.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Current times Crewe to Derby are based on 153's operating the route, they have slowly worsened over the years, as did the 153's themsleves - huffing, puffing and wheezing up to Longton from Stoke and to Blythe Bridge from Uttoxeter. When a 158 operates the current service (and on special days a Meridian) they are waiting for time at numerous stations. Regardless of unit, it is quite possible to arrive outside Derby a few minutes early. Taking a few minutes out should not be a problem, and the planners will have done their calculations.
 
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